Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIX

[Ola]

The Leafs accumulated talent, but failed at step 2, which is to build a team. That requires defensemen, grinders, etc. They have a few great forwards, that's it. You build a plan to shut those down and the Leafs really can't beat most playoff teams over a 7 game series.

They shouldve acquired defensemen as prospects because getting them now in their prime costs a premium. You almost always have to downgrade in talent when dealing an F for an RD, often for an LD too. They also have cap problems, so that doesn't make it easier.

Have they failed? They have made the POs three straight years with a young team. Why is that a fail?

If they focus on the blue-line instead, maybe their young offensive forwards don't do as great because teams can really only focus on them.

Sure every single move made by a NHL team can be questioned, but there is one thing that is pretty absurd and that is that the starting point of all these claims are "what Dubas failed at was" or other ways of saying that.

If Kakko is a hit, have we failed unless we have won a Cup in 2022?

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Torts is a guy with a limited shelf-life. He's capable of getting great results in short time frames, but once that time frame is up it is honestly and truly up.

I’m actually pretty surprised at how well Torts is doing considering he’s been there a few years now. He tends to do well towards the beginning and have his message pushed aside by the end. I really think he’s grown up (a bit lol) since the Vancouver debacle.

 

[Off Sides]

Boston wanted Tavares too.

I guess we just chalk it up to irony that they did not get him and still made the 2nd round beating the team that did sign him.

Once Krejci falls off they may wish they were able to make that move, or maybe not.

 

[Fitzy]

I’m actually pretty surprised at how well Torts is doing considering he’s been there a few years now. He tends to do well towards the beginning and have his message pushed aside by the end. I really think he’s grown up (a bit lol) since the Vancouver debacle.

If Bill Burr was an NHL coach...

 

[True Blue]

I know this is easier said than done and it is also going to cause certain folks to have a minor stroke but... they need a young Dan Girardi.

You can just hear the apoplexy set in.

But you are right. And people tend to forget that in his prime, this was a legit top pairing defenseman.

 

[True Blue]

Keep Pionk as the 7D. Shattenkirk could fall off a cliff at any minute and Pionk is a passable bottom pair when used in a purely offensive role (which hasn’t happened).

Lundkvist and Seider will push him out eventually anyways...

Have no problem keeping Pionk around as depth. I do not think he is very long for this team.

And Shattenkirk has already fallen off a cliff.

 

[True Blue]

The difference between Quinn and Torts... Quinn would actually get Gaborik to work hard

I think that a major difference is that Quinn:

1) keeps in in the locker room and not in media
2) uses moments as teaching opportunities and not just berating his players.

 

[Edge]

The same can be said of a lot of NHL coaches, to be honest.

Torts is a duck and not everyone respects him, but he must have been doing something right all these years.

Everyone has a shelf life, just like everyone has a lifespan. Some are just noticeably longer than others.

Torts is an effective coach if you're a team on the cusp that has a lot of pieces in place and wants to take the next step.

Let's be honest, these playoffs have bought him some time, but it'll be interesting to see how next season goes when the reality of Panarin and others leaving becomes a reality.

If that happens, his act is going to test what's left of that team.

 

[Fitzy]

The thought occurred to me the other day that if Carolina really wants a nice deal from NYR for Fox, they should agree to take Marc Staal back.

They've got an opening on the third pairing, Marc waives to play with his brother, Carolina has a ton of cap space, and they increase the return.

 

[Edge]

I’m actually pretty surprised at how well Torts is doing considering he’s been there a few years now. He tends to do well towards the beginning and have his message pushed aside by the end. I really think he’s grown up (a bit lol) since the Vancouver debacle.

He's also in Columbus.

That spotlight isn't nearly as bright as it is in Vancouver, and it's not the media market that New York is.

Also worth pointing out that 8 weeks ago there were questions about his future in Columbus. They just pulled off a hell of an upset so everything is copasetic at the moment, but we'll see how things go.

 

[True Blue]

Torts is an effective coach if you're a team on the cusp that has a lot of pieces in place and wants to take the next step.

To be fair, I do not think that gives him enough credit. That 2008-2009 NYR team was as devoid of talent as it gets and Torts essentially extracted blood from a stone to get them as far as they could possibly get. His Rangers teams were not so laden with talent.

He could do more with less than AV who did less with more.

 

[Edge]

To be fair, I do not think that gives him enough credit. That 2008-2009 NYR team was as devoid of talent as it gets and Torts essentially extracted blood from a stone to get them as far as they could possibly get. His Rangers teams were not so laden with talent.

He could do more with less than AV who did less with more.

I kind of feel like the taint of AV is still fresh, as a result Torts' legacy has kind of been whitewashed in recent years.

If we were to go back and look at the posts during that era, there's a lot of chatter about his inability to integrate the younger talent into the lineup, a lot of chatter about this team being run-down by the time they reached the playoffs, the wear and tear on the defense (which came back to bite us in the ass big time down the road) rather than relying on a goalie who (at the time) was arguably the best in the world at his position, the utilization of guys and the capping of their offensive abilities, constantly needing Lundqvist to be perfect in order to win, getting himself suspended during a playoff game, etc.

Torts didn't exactly have less to work with over his tenure, he just had different tools to work with. He had a prime Lundqvist, a promising defense that had not yet been run into the ground physically, he had a prime Nash, a prime Gaborik, emerging young trying to establish themselves in the NHL, etc.

AV had his share of flaws too. But outside of actually winning the cup, this team had arguably one of the greatest stretches in its history under AV. A president's trophy, arguably an OT game away from taking command of the cup finals and winning, nearly a second a trip there, a number of stars who blossomed under him who had previously struggled under Torts, and other factors.

If anything, I think it's the reverse. I think we downplay AV and seem to gloss over the things this board was up in arms about under Torts.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

The thought occurred to me the other day that if Carolina really wants a nice deal from NYR for Fox, they should agree to take Marc Staal back.

They've got an opening on the third pairing, Marc waives to play with his brother, Carolina has a ton of cap space, and they increase the return.

28th + Staal (w/retention) for Fox?

 

[Fitzy]

28th + Staal (w/retention) for Fox?

I feel like retention largely defeats the purpose. Carolina doesn't have any cap issues. They barely have any non ELC contracts up front. If we're ditching Staal it'd be so that we would have nothing on the books for him in 2020-21.

It's unlikely, and I think NYR are more likely to find a suitor for Shattenkirk or Smith, but it was just a side idea.

 

[Edge]

I'm not giving up a first to a team who has no bargaining power and is on a timetable, for a player who projects as a second pair defenseman and for whom we would be a front-runner anyway as he marches toward becoming an UFA.

 

[Thirty One]

getting himself suspended during a playoff game, etc.

During a game where he benched a top six forward for discipline reasons. I'm getting heated all over again.

 

[Edge]

During a game where he benched a top six forward for discipline reasons. I'm getting heated all over again.

Exactly.

I mean Torts did some great things, but there are a number of not so great things that I think we're forgetting as well.

 

[Leetch3]

I found RB...

is nathan mackinnon at $6.3 mil the best contract in the league?

 

[East Coast Bias]

28th + Staal (w/retention) for Fox?

/complains about no one being patient enough to rebuild properly
//trades 1st round pick to get rid of Staal's 2 years

 

[Rangers in 7]

28th + Staal (w/retention) for Fox?

hell would have to freeze over before i even thought about this trade proposal again

 

[True Blue]

I kind of feel like the taint of AV is still fresh, as a result Torts' legacy has kind of been whitewashed in recent years.

If we were to go back and look at the posts during that era, there's a lot of chatter about his inability to integrate the younger talent into the lineup, a lot of chatter about this team being run-down by the time they reached the playoffs, the wear and tear on the defense (which came back to bite us in the ass big time down the road) rather than relying on a goalie who (at the time) was arguably the best in the world at his position, the utilization of guys and the capping of their offensive abilities, constantly needing Lundqvist to be perfect in order to win, getting himself suspended during a playoff game, etc.

Torts didn't exactly have less to work with over his tenure, he just had different tools to work with. He had a prime Lundqvist, a promising defense that had not yet been run into the ground physically, he had a prime Nash, a prime Gaborik, emerging young trying to establish themselves in the NHL, etc.

AV had his share of flaws too. But outside of actually winning the cup, this team had arguably one of the greatest stretches in its history under AV. A president's trophy, arguably an OT game away from taking command of the cup finals and winning, nearly a second a trip there, a number of stars who blossomed under him who had previously struggled under Torts, and other factors.

If anything, I think it's the reverse. I think we downplay AV and seem to gloss over the things this board was up in arms about under Torts.

Fair, but I still think it the other way. Callahan & Dubinsky developed under Torts. Sauer was very promising and taking steps forward. As were Giriardi and Staal.

Again, I go back to the 2008-2009 team and Torts got out of it as much as was humanely possible. Could AV have done that? I have my doubts.

Yes, I agree that the stretch under AV was one of the best in the history of this franchise (which is sad in and of itself). But he had more talent and was able to utilize Henke to cover up many mistakes.

But all of this is the past. Now we are onto to Quinn who seems to be able to extract from players and not have the luxury of relying on Henke.

 

[True Blue]

28th + Staal (w/retention) for Fox?

There is no way that you can give up a first here. No way.

Why bother giving anything at all? Fox has all the leverage.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

f*** Fox like for real!

 

[Thirty One]

Fair, but I still think it the other way. Callahan & Dubinsky developed under Torts. Sauer was very promising and taking steps forward. As were Giriardi and Staal.

Again, I go back to the 2008-2009 team and Torts got out of it as much as was humanely possible. Could AV have done that? I have my doubts.

Yes, I agree that the stretch under AV was one of the best in the history of this franchise (which is sad in and of itself). But he had more talent and was able to utilize Henke to cover up many mistakes.

Who was the goalie for Torts' tenure here?

It would be very bad if you couldn't look back at Torts' 4+ years with NYR and not note anyone who took steps forward.

 

[Thirty One]

**** Fox like for real!

I doubt I'm even his type.