Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIX

[Thirty One]

Maybe--but if I remember the sticking point with the Rangers is he wanted 5 years. The other thing is--as is right now he's worth a $6 mil deal and he'd given the Rangers a pretty good discount on his last contract.

I think he asked for 5 years only after the Rangers checked in after they decided they were going to move him, and he had already mentally moved on.

 

[Matt4776]

If you had a new to your team 32 year old player who will probably want at least 5 year $30mil + contract (and I may be low in that estimate) would you do that?---and he's not Benn, Seguin, Radulov, Klingberg or Heiskanen. Would you give him that kind of deal while at the same time giving upgrading next year's third to a second 1st round draft pick to the Rangers? Apparently Dallas is thinking of doing that but I would not do that. This is not to disparage Mats. I think he's a very good player but two first rounders is a lot to give up for him and that's a contract that can come back to haunt you.

If Dallas does sign him though--great.

Maybe Mats will even convince Henrik then--that maybe it's not so bad trying his luck with another team---though I don't think it's going to be easy for the Rangers to find another team willing to take a 37 year old Henrik with an $8.5 mil cap hit but maybe we could retain half.

From the Rangers' perspective and our recent history, I absolutely would not do that. During our best years, our depth scoring was a strength. Giving up a 1st AND probably a long-contract would sting. Maybe it'll be a bit less in Dallas b/c of taxes, but yeah.

I understand it from Dallas' POV, though. They've struggled with secondary scoring for FOREVER. And, their competitive clock is ticking.

Presumably, the Dallas pick in 2020 will be 15th-ish at the earliest. Likely later than that. On average, the mid/late first round 2020 prospect wont be ready to be even a below-average NHLer (never-mind a piece that is ready to contribute on a team with playoff/SC aspirations), Benn will be 33. Radulov 37. Benn 31. Klingberg 31. Statistically, they'll all start declining by that point. Heiskanen is the only core piece that is still on the ascension.

Accordingly, I wouldn't be too hesitant to use the 1st as ammo, especially since the 3rd is committed already. I think the bigger question to ask is whether there will be a better player than Zucc available for a 2020 1st/the deal he'd get.

He is already a fan favorite, is a heart-and-soul guy, seems to be well-loved in the room, has a game that shouldn't be prone to a drastic or rapid breakdown. The GM there has also coveted him for awhile and will be on the hot seat. It would also probably sting to the fans in Dallas to finally get some competent secondary scoring (especially someone as likable as Zucc) only to see him gone in two months. I'm optimistic, but we'll see.

 

[bobbop]

Maybe--but if I remember the sticking point with the Rangers is he wanted 5 years. The other thing is--as is right now he's worth a $6 mil deal and he'd given the Rangers a pretty good discount on his last contract.

I could see $6MM but I can’t imagine anyone giving him five years.

 

[Doctyl]

The Dubas hate in here makes no sense

 

[NernieBichols]

The rebuild timeline is the decade when Kakko's 22-32 years old. Not just because of Kakko, but also because our other guys with the highest ceiling (Chytil, Kravtsov, K'Andre) are just barely older than Kakko.

Your going to be so disappointed in July. Just warning you

 

[NernieBichols]

It's so frustrating that 14 months into a rebuild, the only talk here is UFA acquisition. It is just common sense that what we need is this UFA or that UFA, just a matter of who we get and how much we pay for him. But nobody doubts if we even need a UFA.

Aren’t you the poster who’s been begging for a rebuild and have been watching Hartford up close for like 20 years. Man it must suck to have read that rebuild letter and be thinking this a ‘let’s be a bottom 5 team for 3-4 years and get 3-4 top 5 picks’
Let me add all these lower seed teams success. It will further add to your disappointment. The rangers are gonna spend money this summer.

Bet my pants on it

 

[NernieBichols]

I guess I'll bite, and ask the two obvious questions.

1. Why would Trouba suddenly be more durable at ages 27-34 (his next contract), than he was from 19 to 26?

2. What exactly do we envision as the cost for Trouba? Not just to sign, but to trade for as well.

After all, if he's worth trading for and signing to a long-term extension as a number one defenseman, the cost to acquire him is going to be on par, correct?

1. Bc he’s 8 years older and maybe more professional and trains better and takes care of his body better than he did 18-22 when he was kinda a malcontent and wanted out of Winnipeg?
2. Skjei

And that’s just spitballing possible answers for you. I’m sure you’ll have a retort as this trouba debate seems to have hooked you. For the record, I think trouba becomes better and better ala John Carlson. He reminds me of Carlson a lot. I don’t mind paying his price tag, I’m not giving up young assets. Skjei on the other hand, fits their window and they have control for another 4 years while the rangers want to rebuild the D

 

[NernieBichols]

Nonsense.

Why didn’t you see the team torn apart when Stepan and Brassard were traded?

Why did we sign free agent vets if we were in fact, rebuilding? Rebuilding teams don’t typically sign veteran dmen to multi year contracts.

We weren’t rebuilding. The real rebuild started last season. That’s when Gorton started dismantling the team for picks and prospects. And the rebuild was not ruined by Shatty and Smith. We just won the lottery and will be picking 2nd OA.

Nobody is buying the nonsense you keep discharging so stop trying to convince people you know what the hell youre talking about.

Come on people. The decision to rebuild was made by the time they decided to trade their 1c for the 7th pick and a prospect without replacing him or bringing in a quality 2/3 line center Don’t try telling me they thought Hayes was gonna step in and take the minutes stepan did and someone else was gonna take Hayes minutes in 17-18 and they were gonna be contenders.
The letter was just a great way of buying Gorton the ability to do whatever he wanted going forward. It wasn’t the official start of a 5-10 year rebuild. The idea that Gorton is doing this job thinking he got 10 years before his boss expects a championship. It’s delusional

 

[Ola]

If you had a new to your team 32 year old player who will probably want at least 5 year $30mil + contract (and I may be low in that estimate) would you do that?---and he's not Benn, Seguin, Radulov, Klingberg or Heiskanen. Would you give him that kind of deal while at the same time giving upgrading next year's third to a second 1st round draft pick to the Rangers? Apparently Dallas is thinking of doing that but I would not do that. This is not to disparage Mats. I think he's a very good player but two first rounders is a lot to give up for him and that's a contract that can come back to haunt you.

If Dallas does sign him though--great.

Maybe Mats will even convince Henrik then--that maybe it's not so bad trying his luck with another team---though I don't think it's going to be easy for the Rangers to find another team willing to take a 37 year old Henrik with an $8.5 mil cap hit but maybe we could retain half.

Yeah, its a bit of a concern.

I've not seen a ton of Dallas lately, but when I've seen them in the POs Zucc has also been more average. When he went there he was more or less literary playing the best hockey of his career, and he carried that right into his first game when he was awesome. But looking at the time he was out with his broken arm, i.e. definitely in the later parts of the period a player usually is out with that injury, its obvious that it was a serious break. He isn't back to full speed yet, and that peak form is just not something that you can assume a player can get back to after a somewhat long injury.

Its a steep price to give up for them like you point out.

OTOH, I wouldn't at all rule out that Zucc was pretty reasonable in their expectations, and he does fit in really well with the vets. Lets hope that he has a great series against STL!

 

[Beacon]

Aren’t you the poster who’s been begging for a rebuild and have been watching Hartford up close for like 20 years. Man it must suck to have read that rebuild letter and be thinking this a ‘let’s be a bottom 5 team for 3-4 years and get 3-4 top 5 picks’
Let me add all these lower seed teams success. It will further add to your disappointment. The rangers are gonna spend money this summer.

Bet my pants on it

I mean, we've only tried rebuilding by spending money on UFAs for 80 years, so let's keep trying more of the same? Pre-2004 when we had a budget double that of the average NHL team, we still failed to buy our way out of misery. As Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. "

We won the Cup by drafting 7 guys who went on to become at least 3-time All Stars (Richter, Leetch, Zubov, Amonte, Weight, Kovalev) before going after vets like Messier. If we fail to grow our own bunch of All Stars first, Panarin or whoever will be remembered just like Phil Esposito, Gretzky, Fleury, Lindros, Bure, etc.

 

[Ola]

Can’t wait for RB’s post tomorrow morning at 5:56am blasting them for the Tavares signing.

I lol'ed at this, spot on. I got a 6 hour time difference but sometimes he is at it before me...

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

I'd take Zucc at 4 years for 5-6M even though it goes against everything I stand for.

 

[Ola]

Aren’t you the poster who’s been begging for a rebuild and have been watching Hartford up close for like 20 years. Man it must suck to have read that rebuild letter and be thinking this a ‘let’s be a bottom 5 team for 3-4 years and get 3-4 top 5 picks’
Let me add all these lower seed teams success. It will further add to your disappointment. The rangers are gonna spend money this summer.

Bet my pants on it

You could certainly be right in that we could see moves made this summer that some would react to since they are not tank friendly.

But to be honest, I think its very unlikely that it changes something in the big picture. After the kids are resigned, Gorton just don't have a ton of space to work with.

If we want a high pick in 2020, what is the best thing we can do? Seriously, looking at how this season played out, the best option is probably to bring in a couple of vets like Kovalchuk. Those guys don't show up when the PO spot is lost. The kids do.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Aren’t you the poster who’s been begging for a rebuild and have been watching Hartford up close for like 20 years. Man it must suck to have read that rebuild letter and be thinking this a ‘let’s be a bottom 5 team for 3-4 years and get 3-4 top 5 picks’
Let me add all these lower seed teams success. It will further add to your disappointment. The rangers are gonna spend money this summer.

Bet my pants on it

Seems pretty overconfident.

Despite my personal desire to not spend big money this off-season, it's fairly clear the Rangers situation is ambiguous at best.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

the "contract" to take back would be five more years of Nikita Zaitsev

Marleau has a NTC, Muzzin and Kadri actually have value. It'd be Zaitsev. 5/22.5 still to go with a NMC incoming.

If the Rangers decide to reinstate the NMC after the trade. They don't have to

 

[egelband]

I mean, even though they need defense, the Dubas thing would he to add forwards.

But let's assume he has common sense. Reilly, Muzzin, Dermott and Rosen on the left. Zaitsev and Holl on the right. That is their signed blue line. Nylander and Kadri are possible trade assets. At least to return a RD.

I don't see how Kreider is on the radar at the moment.

Yep. Everyone knows the Leafs defense is turrble, yet for two years they haven't done anything about it. Two years ago I felt they were suffering from executive gridlock; No one willing/able to make a move. This past year, though, they still don't fix it. I know they got Muzzin but by the deadline it was clear they needed more help.
But for some reason they just sit on their hands. Now they're probably going to have to start paring down the team, due to the cap.
The past two years were their chances to load up and make a run. In my humble opinion. Not sure they're going to be so flexible going forward. To me, they've blown a big chance.

 

[egelband]

View attachment 220027
This little tidbit is what I was referring to back a few pages.

What is the obsession with getting siblings on the same team. I get how it's a cute idea, but it seems there's a vague sense of entitlement, hanging around. Not sure if it's the players themselves expecting to be "reunited" or if it's from the GMs or just the fans. But it's silly. It's one of the worst reasons for a team to make a move.

 

[Vitto79]

I mean, even though they need defense, the Dubas thing would he to add forwards.

But let's assume he has common sense. Reilly, Muzzin, Dermott and Rosen on the left. Zaitsev and Holl on the right. That is their signed blue line. Nylander and Kadri are possible trade assets. At least to return a RD.

I don't see how Kreider is on the radar at the moment.

A main problem is they have no grit ... Kreider isn’t the toughest guy but he plays with an edge

Unlike Kadri he would of fought DeBrusk

 

[egelband]

Somehow got to think that the Maple Leafs are going to be moving on from Kadri this summer.

Another asset they could have moved. Who's now worthless. Or, at least, worth less.

 

[egelband]

Aren’t you the poster who’s been begging for a rebuild and have been watching Hartford up close for like 20 years. Man it must suck to have read that rebuild letter and be thinking this a ‘let’s be a bottom 5 team for 3-4 years and get 3-4 top 5 picks’
Let me add all these lower seed teams success. It will further add to your disappointment. The rangers are gonna spend money this summer.

Bet my pants on it

I don't think so. I think they're keeping thirst powder dry, so to speak, for one more year. Unless Panarin indicates he'll get on the bus at a team-friendly rate. To me, one more year of patient development and stockpiling assets seems wise.

 

[egelband]

Yeah, its a bit of a concern.

I've not seen a ton of Dallas lately, but when I've seen them in the POs Zucc has also been more average. When he went there he was more or less literary playing the best hockey of his career, and he carried that right into his first game when he was awesome. But looking at the time he was out with his broken arm, i.e. definitely in the later parts of the period a player usually is out with that injury, its obvious that it was a serious break. He isn't back to full speed yet, and that peak form is just not something that you can assume a player can get back to after a somewhat long injury.

Its a steep price to give up for them like you point out.

OTOH, I wouldn't at all rule out that Zucc was pretty reasonable in their expectations, and he does fit in really well with the vets. Lets hope that he has a great series against STL!

Yeah. If there's mutual interest, a deal will happen.

 

[RangerBoy]

On the TB 27OA---not saying not to try and do it but there's no way in hell the way that Callahan has played the last two/three years that we're getting a 2nd or 3rd for him at next year's deadline. He's basically become a run of the mill 4th liner. We'd be lucky to get a 5th for him.

Brian Boyle brought back a 2nd round pick.

Wayne Simmonds brought back a young roster player who Nashville traded a 1st round pick to acquire.

It takes one stupid GM.

Trade Callahan to Nashville.

 

[RangerBoy]

As a proud Hater of everything from Boston, I’m very pleased they whooped Toronto.

Can’t wait for RB’s post tomorrow morning at 5:56am blasting them for the Tavares signing.

You look at that teams roster and scratch your head why they didn’t deal from a position of strength during the deadline.

Muzzin was a good add but I think they could have had other options too.

It's not wrong.

The Leafs accomplished nothing with their Tavares signing. They lost in 7 games last season to Boston. They lost in 7 games this year to Boston. The Bruins aren't some great team either. They have 4 forwards. 5 forwards if DeBrusk feels like playing. The Bruins have their own issues.

The stupid Leafs wanted to accelerate their rebuild. Lou gave Marleau a 3 year 35 plus contract. They still have another year on the contract. Marleau doesn't want to go anywhere. The player's best days were behind him years ago.

Gorton likes to say he has looked at other teams have rebuilt. The Leafs are one of those teams. He now needs to look at how they made free agent signings and didn't make their team better.

Look no further than those two contracts. They took the Caps to 6 games in 2016 and decided to accelerate the rebuild. They have not won a playoff series in the last two years.

Tavares has a 2-3 year window. One year is already gone. The Leafs will have $40M tied up in 4 forwards after Marner gets paid this season. Add Rielly and Andersen. $50M in 6 players. Add $6.25M for Marleau. The cap will be $83M. The Leafs aren't winning the Cup with this group.

Gorton needs to look at the Leafs as a reason to not accelerate the rebuild through free agency. The Leafs are now in cap purgatory. They don't have enough money to fill out their roster. Top heavy. Not much depth. Their blue line is bad.

Good luck to Brendan Shanahan and Kyle Dubas.

 

[Ori]

I would start with their Leafs coach - it`s not hard to win gold with the Canada national team in hockey, but a good point @RangerBoy .

And that means no Erik Karlsson or Panarin and continue the rebuild as plan, and if they need a veteran forward they can just sign Zucc for free this summer.
He knows New York, but what I like to see is an upgrade concering their defense to start with that this summer and someone younger than Erik Karlsson.

And maybe move Pionk, but it seems Gorton have plans for him so whatever.
He is not Sergio Ramos guys in soccer so please move him - not near that level and pretty far off.

 

[eco's bones]

Brian Boyle brought back a 2nd round pick.

Wayne Simmonds brought back a young roster player who Nashville traded a 1st round pick to acquire.

It takes one stupid GM.

Trade Callahan to Nashville.

It's true. It only takes one but I still don't see it. Callahan's at least 3 years away from any kind of real productivity. He is nowhere near the player he was when we moved him to Tampa. His game is at the point where he should think seriously about retiring.