Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIV

[Gardner McKay]

Since Leetch in 1986, our top-10 draftees were Jay More, Niklas Sundstrom, Manny Malhotra, Pavel Brendl, Jamie Lundmark, Dan Blackburn, Al Montoya and Dylan McIlrath. Only one (Sundstrom) could be called an average NHLer, and he was nothing special, a few years on the second line, mostly on the third.

I get that Gorts and Co aren't responsible for it, but I can understand fans' scepticism.

It took Malholtra a few years but he got to be a good 3rd liner but yeah, I see where you are going.

 

[Beacon]

It's semantics really.

This season, Zibanejad has been probably 2 rungs below the superstar elite guys - McDavid, Crosby, MacK, etc.

He's more or less been on pair with Towes, Seguin, O'Reilly, Monahan, etc. on a team that doesn't score.

I'd like to see it backed up by another season, but hes been fantastic this year.

I think in an ideal world, hes your #2 center but what a world that would be.

The only world where win the Cup.

 

[Calad]

Detroit with an OT win over suckalo, go tank go!

 

[donpaulo]

Buchnevich himself said that kreider’s russian is not that good

It’s an urban myth

Nope I don't buy it

Press guide says he is fluent

So if I have to choose between it and a post on this thread saying its a myth, I'm going to go with the "official story"

we can agree to disagree and its not the end of the universe

It might be prudent to focus on what we do agree on and that is what is best for the team right ?

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

It Is Time For The Rangers to Move On from Lindy Ruff

 

[donpaulo]

Getting back to the issue I believe the issue for many here is how to optimize this rebuild. Most of us, if not all on this thread have accepted it and really want the team to succeed in this endeavor. I think its encouraging to read so many thoughtful topics and takes on the situation.

I think it boils down to a few things

1. Does NY sign a free agent or two at the possible expense of a better draft slot (tanking) AND
2. Blocking a roster spot for a prospect who could really emerge as a difference maker if given the chance

Of these 2, the later concerns me more than the former.

The McQuaid deal still makes me shake my head. Nothing against him as a player but he isn't what NY is looking for.

Karlsson is 28,
Duchene and Anders Lee are 27
Hayes, Skinner & Panarin are 26.
Trouba is only 24 but I don't believe he is going anywhere. The Jets will move Buff (with a 14 team NTC) or let Tyler Myers walk as UFA and backfill with a guy like Niku.

These guys are going to make a ton of money. Hopefully NY doesn't buy into a contract that could harm the cap by the time the kids start rolling in and need resigning.

 

[bobbop]

Advice from a former NHL team President...fans spend too much time worrying about the cap. Most teams have at least four and sometimes as many as six players on ELCs. Subtract them from the cap and then figure out the average that’s left...it’s a lot higher than you think. Is that ever true here.

Right now, the Rangers have all of two players under contract for the 2021-22 season. They will be paying somewhere between five and seven players at the ELC rate. They will have available somewhere between $75/and $80 MM for the remaining 15-16 players. That’s a pretty hefty average.

Gorton is right to avoid most long term engagements. He doesn’t need to avoid all of them though.

 

[donpaulo]

yup its the length of the deal to attract the talent beyond their useful years that concerns me.
Why does Hayes take 3 years in NY vs say 6 or 7 to go elsewhere and more importantly does anyone here think giving Hayes a 7 year deal makes sense ?
I reckon at least 1 team will if not more. Hayes is a good fit in Carolina for example

 

[Ola]

Advice from a former NHL team President...fans spend too much time worrying about the cap. Most teams have at least four and sometimes as many as six players on ELCs. Subtract them from the cap and then figure out the average that’s left...it’s a lot higher than you think. Is that ever true here.

Right now, the Rangers have all of two players under contract for the 2021-22 season. They will be paying somewhere between five and seven players at the ELC rate. They will have available somewhere between $75/and $80 MM for the remaining 15-16 players. That’s a pretty hefty average.

Gorton is right to avoid most long term engagements. He doesn’t need to avoid all of them though.

Good point, and like I’ve said a few times, if it’s one thing all cup winners have in common it’s having horrible contracts.

It’s a part of doing business to over-pay at times. It’s like the Skjei contract. You can discuss 100k here and there, even a million. What does that matter? Some guys will come in a little higher and some a little lower. He is locked up. We don’t have to worry about him becoming a UFA and having a monster year right before it so that we lose him for nothing.

I’ve forgot his name, but a Nobel Prize winner in Economics once concluded that it is much more valuable long term to ‘overpay’ for what you want rather than getting what you can for a fair price even if it’s not a perfect fit. I think that applies so well to the Cap and the NHL. What is a million? 2-3 million? 4 million? You waste that every season on some bum.

-Facts are, if a player is worth 6.5m to you, he is probably worth 8.5m to you too. 10.5m? Looking at guys paid 6-7m that play up to their contract, it’s hard to see that it would be a big problem for those teams to add 1-2m for them, if not more.

-Looking at bad contracts, they are rarely about a player being worth 5m but being paid 7m. They are almost always about a player being totally replaceable with a cheap guy at best but being paid 6-7m.

Make the contracts you sign count. Avoid the disasters.

 

[egelband]

The Leafs want to move Marleau's contract this summer. Marleau has a NMC. The Leafs need the cap space. That was a bad signing by the Leafs. Tavares? Are the Leafs a better "team" with him? The Leafs gave Tavares $11M and they don't have the money to pay their other players and fill out the roster. The Leafs aren't better with Tavares. The Leafs are headed towards another 1st round exit. Their roster will be top heavy and not enough money to fill out their roster with good players. They are going nowhere.

Gorton has looked at other teams and how they have rebuilt. He needs to look at how those same rebuilding teams ****ed themselves with free agent contracts.

Yes. One key to team building is filling roster spots properly. I mean salary wise. 11 million is a max deal. Only a few guys command that money. Tavaras isn't that guy. Matthews it's borderline for me. I actually think Marner is their best player. Not a bad problem to have. But they need to be very careful.
Anyhow Kreider and Panarin and Hayes and Zucc are all good players but they need to take an appropriate salary or else they throw the team out of balance. It's ok to overpay guys but only until the team is ready to contend. A real contender can't have Kreider at 7-8 million or Panarin at 11 million. But if those guys are taking 6 and 8 million, they fit right in. I guess Hayes wasn't down with second line money (5-ish million) so he went.

 

[Machinehead]

Lol Brooks is STILL crying about Kevin Hayes in his latest article.

 

[egelband]

Completely disagree with the bolded.

Tavares' contract wasn't a mistake. The Marleau, Zaitsev and, to a lesser extent, Nylander contracts were.

They overpaid second-tier talent, and Nylander should have been used as a trade chip to improve their defense.

Now, Nylander has less value due to a pointless holdout, Marleau is 35+ contract with a NMC, and Zaitsev is approaching Lucic-level contract toxicity.

Elite players making elite money are never going to hurt a team.

I think I'd rather have Panarin than Tavares. But I wouldn't pay him what Tavaras is getting

 

[egelband]

Kane was 27 when his deal started. Kreider will be 29.

Kane also got barely any trade protection (3 team no trade list).

Kane also had a 30 goal season and multiple seasons of point totals higher than Kreider's career high.

Kreider's age will make them less of a direct comp than you think and if he wants some trade protection, that's going to drop things as well. Not to mention the Kane contract was laughed at by basically everyone as an overpayment the second it was signed.

JVR is a better comparable because the ages at the start of the deals will be the same and he got 7x5 while having much better stats and getting NO trade protection.

JVR's deal was 8.8% of the cap when signed. Give Kreider that cap % for 5 or 6 years with no trade protection, drop AAV slightly if he wants some protection and drop the AAV accordingly as more years get added on.

7.2 AAV x 5 years.
6.9 AAV x 6 years.
6.5 AAV x 7 years

You make good points.

 

[egelband]

If the Rangers are fortunate enough to draft a top 3 talent while also signing Panarin they will be competing a lot sooner than people think.

The Rangers haven't had elite talent in quite sometime. Kakko and Hughes could be franchise level skill. Panarin is Elite every season. One could argue Zib is Eilte as well. This scenario doesn't get the Rangers into the Playoffs next year. Which is great because that draft might rival 2006, but it makes them take a momentous step forward while the new bloods get faster and stronger. 20-21 realistically is where I see them making the PO if a scenario as stated above is brought to light.

Panarin - Zib - Kravtsov
Kreider - Chytil - Kakko
Lemieux - LA - Vesey
Names - Howden - Strome
Fast

The roster above is significantly better and you can essentially let it go and see what happens. Factor in Hughes and it's one hell of a foundation. Move around the bottom 6 a bit trade where you can to improve.

I think we can all agree ADA looks like a solid contribution. Miller, Nils and any picks this year will all get solid looks the year after.

Now obliviously if we pick 4-7 it changes things a lot. Really if we do, the team should aim to bottom out next year and aim for a top 3 pick. Guys picked 3-7 likely will contribute in the future but not right away.

We always have the plugs. We always have the bottom 6 guys. We never have elite/franchise talent. Getting 2 pieces in one off-season changes everything. Fingers crossed we land 4 and get some lotto luck to pick 1 or 2. If not, next year might be more of the same. Which is ok, because we need to draft low.

I agree with you on the talent past but I think the young guys are going to take a while to gel. I agree we'll be seeing good fun stuff. But I think the young guys need two or three years to stew. Even if the right guys are on board soon id still add a year or two onto the timeline.

 

[NYRKING30]

Lol Brooks is STILL crying about Kevin Hayes in his latest article.

Bro he doesn't stop. I don't know if he's ever fancied and romanced a player post lockout like Hayes. Its ridiculous.

 

[egelband]

Tavares was signed after Marleau and Zaitsev. They are no doubt bad deals. But they were in place when they chased Taveres. I think JT will ultimately be another shovel full of dirt that buries the team, Marleau and Zaitsev are others. That JT money could have addressed defense. The Marleau money could have too, but the fact they spent good money after bad while neglecting their real problem is a bad move. They weren't blind sided by the Marleau and Zaitsev contracts suddenly appearing, they knew it was there and still dove in head first. They had an avoidable problem. Now they need to bribe the Horton contract away, let Gardiner walk, and probably lose Kapanen or Johansson ala Hagelin.

I guess we'll see next season, but they will probably do worse this post season and worse overall next year since their bad d will be worse, and an offensive piece or two will be gone.

Totally agree about the nylander points though. He should have been moved once JT was inked. He is their only way of salvaging the cap issue and defense.

Tavaras is their Shattenkirk. But on a whole different scale.

 

[egelband]

Bro he doesn't stop. I don't know if he's ever fancied and romanced a player post lockout like Hayes. Its ridiculous.

If Hayes were down with 5x5 or so I bet he's still a Ranger.

 

[egelband]

See I have seen this before however you aren't taking into account that:

1) JVR was a 3rd line forward and PP specialist in Toronto who doesn't really produce much at 5v5
2) Evander Kane has known off-ice quirks that scared some teams away

I'm sticking with he will easily get the 7x7

He might get it. But it would be too much and I hope the Rangers don't do that.

 

[NYRKING30]

If Hayes were down with 5x5 or so I bet he's still a Ranger.

Maybe. I also don't think Gorton really even cared to find out if he was IMO.

 

[RangerBoy]

While I'm with you that of course Tavares is an asset to them, I think his point is that they brought in Tavares to put them over the top and yet they still seemed poised for a 1st round exit. Leafs won't go anywhere until they fix their defense/goaltending.

Thank you. Fitzy always needs someone explain things to him. The Leafs with JT are not a better team. The Leafs don’t have enough money to fix their D after paying J.T, Matthews, Nylander and eventually Marner. Ok. They got Tavares. Now what? How did they make their overall team better? This team hasn’t won a playoff round. I think Boston is going to wax them in the first round. Things aren’t changing for them next season.

 

[NYR Viper]

The Leafs SHOULD have traded Kapanen or Jonsson at this deadline for a defenseman. They probably will do just that this offseason as they can’t pay them AND Marner. That’s where they will find their defensive help. At least it should be.

 

[RGY]

But thats part of the business. Tavares is a star player in this league. He has had a fantastic year. Signing any player is a risk. It can workout beautifully or it can fail. You cant sit here and act all high and mighty suggesting the Leafs made a mistake at this juncture. There is absolutely no way you could foresee the Leafs, who are still making the playoffs, having some mediocre flaws to them. I mean to be fair Tavares has made them look good in terms of his production and he has been a clutch playoff performer. You are writing the Leafs move off as a mistake and the playoffs have not even started yet. Just so you can fit your narrative that signing big time free agents are awful. Its ridiculous.

Tavares has 45/41/86. Good chance he finishes with 90 points. Lets see what happens in the playoffs.

And also lets see what transpires in the offseason before claiming the Leafs wont be able to re-sign who they need. A team very well could come in and take Horton off their hands and some other contracts. Sure they will have to pay a price in prospects and picks but their window is now.

 

[RangerBoy]

Did anyone catch the Dave Maloney and Kenny Albert interview with Jeff Gorton on Wednesday night between first and second period?

Maloney sent out a tweet before the game and I listened to it. I have tried to find a clip on post here but they didn’t post it anywhere.



It was a good listen. A good % of the 17 minute intermission.

Gorton was asked about the status of the rebuild. Gorton said the plan is for the Rangers to be a good team for a every long time. Not one of these teams which is good for a few years and then has to retool again. The Rangers have traded away so many good players and people but it was necessary. He mentioned a few of them.

Gorton likes Chytil at center. He has more room to skate and create.

They like Georgiev’s progress. Gorton said now is the right age for Shestyorkin to come over to the NHL. Same age as when Hank came to New York. The Rangers will see how much of an adjustment Shestyorkin has to make to playing in North America. He didn’t say anything about trading Georgiev. They didn’t ask him.

He was asked about the three first round picks from last June. They want Kravstov here for next season. They really like the progress made by Miller at Wisconsin. Gorton compared Lundkvist to Stralman. They hope Miller and Lundkvist can be a top pairing for the Rangers in the future.

Maloney asked about free agency. Gorton said the Rangers are looking for veteran character players to help the young players play the right way.

Everything was about the long term. Be patient with this player and that player. Waiting for the young players to develop. He didn’t sound like someone eager to accelerate the rebuild with a huge free agent signing. Time will tell.

 

[NYR Viper]

Did anyone catch the Dave Maloney and Kenny Albert interview with Jeff Gorton on Wednesday night between first and second period?

Maloney sent out a tweet before the game and I listened to it. I have tried to find a clip on post here but they didn’t post it anywhere.



It was a good listen. A good % of the 17 minute intermission.

Gorton was asked about the status of the rebuild. Gorton said the plan is for the Rangers to be a good team for a every long time. Not one of these teams which is good for a few years and then has to retool again. The Rangers have traded away so many good players and people but it was necessary. He mentioned a few of them.

Gorton likes Chytil at center. He has more room to skate and create.

They like Georgiev’s progress. Gorton said now is the right age for Shestyorkin to come over to the NHL. Same age as when Hank came to New York. The Rangers will see how much of an adjustment Shestyorkin has to make to playing in North America. He didn’t say anything about trading Georgiev. They didn’t ask him.

He was asked about the three first round picks from last June. They want Kravstov here for next season. They really like the progress made by Miller at Wisconsin. Gorton compared Lundkvist to Stralman. They hope Miller and Lundkvist can be a top pairing for the Rangers in the future.

Maloney asked about free agency. Gorton said the Rangers are looking for veteran character players to help the young players play the right way.

Everything was about the long term. Be patient with this player and that player. Waiting for the young players to develop. He didn’t sound like someone eager to accelerate the rebuild with a huge free agent signing. Time will tell.

This is good news and thanks for sharing. Hopefully we can find a link somewhere

Elliotte Friedman mentioned that Ottawa was in a position to overpay veterans on shorter term deals to help their young players grow. The Rangers HOPEFULLY will be in the same boat

 

[RGY]

Would love to bring Boyle back.