Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIII

[TheTakedown]

Sounds to me that, based on the information @BBKers provided, and now what Dolan said, Trouba seems likely to me. It also tells me either they’re re-signing Kreider or they have their eyes on what happens in Toronto.

Saying they’re going to spend money doesn’t mean overpaying for Panarin.

He wouldn't confirm or deny panarin, but they are definitely going to spend money. I only foresee buyouts if they decide to make an actual competitive team this year, but even then I think it'll be shrewd signings and younger NHL players. Rangers don't have much left to sell

 

[NYR Viper]

Carolina is a team I could see being very interested in a guy like Kreider. Especially if they can negotiate an extension with him and they lose Ferland to UFA.

 

[TheTakedown]

Never.

fans would burn down Yankee Stadium if Judge was traded for the measly returns we are seeing

 

[TheTakedown]

Dallas’ goaltending has been great this year, their main problem is offensive depth, which really helps the case of them resigning Zuccarello

This was mentiuoned in the trade thread. Dallas is probably going to value several playoff games/year at a higher return than a pick in the mid 20s... Smaller market teams need people in the seats. Zuccarello is a fan favorite player, and Dallas already had a decent top 3 without Zuccarello.

Seguin, Benn, Raduolov, Zuccarello, throw in a couple of middle-6er signings and there's a very good top 6 that dallas will have had to pay a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and $ for... To them, that's most likely worth ti

 

[RGY]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Having Hedman and McDonagh on the ice for 50 minutes every game is almost unfair to the rest of the league.

But thats not the discussion Viper. Of course that pair is unfair. He is finally playing with a competent partner, who is also a high end elite defenseman. Mac is still playing good hockey but his game has dropped off from where it once was.

Hedman-Mac pair doesnt have anything to do with the debate of making the decision to extend Kreider while bringing Mac’s situation into said debate.

 

[Off Sides]

Fox is really the only solution for us right now, and even then its a wait and see. Calgary is ****ed in terms of keeping that D corps together after expansion

I'm okay with the wait and see approach.

My timeline would be attached to the whoever turns out to be the best players out of all these picks they used recently and the picks they will use. That is going to take a while to mature, as will it take some time to remove some of the less desirable contracts already signed, thus I'd feel as if I had some time for the wait and see approach.

 

[NYR Viper]

But thats not the discussion Viper. Of course that pair is unfair. He is finally playing with a competent partner, who is also a high end elite defenseman. Mac is still playing good hockey but his game has dropped off from where it once was.

Hedman-Mac pair doesnt have anything to do with the debate of making the decision to extend Kreider while bringing Mac’s situation into said debate.

Hedman and McDonagh don't play together. They split them up from the start. What I am saying is you believe Kreider has an effect on the game outside of his points. I also think McDonagh has an equal, if not greater effect on the game outside of his points.

His game hasn't dropped off this year. He's back to playing #1 defenseman quality hockey

 

[True Blue]

I did not propose Rykov in the lineup at all....

I know. But that was part of my reasoning of why that defense did not look very inspiring and hence my response to the poster.

Again, what's the solution? You're not offering anything other than the "wait and see" approach... What's the target? What's going to work? If it's not Trouba, you're banking on a guy being drafted either last year or this year and waiting 5 years for him to develop into a #1 dman... that doesn't happen overnight, and the Rangers don't have 5 years to wait since after were 2 years deep into this rebuild if you count the Stepan retool move (3 if you cound Brassard for Zib).

The question is "To what?". My solution to what? The porous shape of the Rangers defense? For the near term, it's nothing. I am non in a hurry for a quick fix. I do not care that much for the next several years. I expect the Rangers not to be contending. So for the next several years, I keep drafting and seeing what the kids can or cannot do. THEN, after a few years of evaluation, I would expect that you would see what you have. THEN, if this team looks ready to begin to take steps forward, you can evaluate if you want/need to move assets for a top pair defenseman or if you want to sign a free agent. But there is no need to rush it.

Trouba isn't an ideal solution, but unless the stars align, you're going to be stuck waiting for the perfect move and never find an answer... much like the Rangers PowerPlay actually

I am not looking for the perfect move.....just the right one.

Never is not a fear as I am sure that in the off season following the 2020-2021 year, there will be some other candidate that can be signed as a UFA or traded for. But there is no need to rush it by bringing in a perennially hurt player and then signing him to a long term contract, rife with NMC/NTC and paying him to be something that he is not and has never been.

An Extended Trouba at $7M/year (good deal for a defender of his level) for a 1st, prospect, roster player? that's a fair price to pay to remove the 5 years it'll take to develop said defender, and that's assuming we find a guy of his caliber

See above comment. And now I have to give up a prospect and a pick to get him here and then ask him to perform at a level that he is not performing at for 60 games a year? No thank you.

 

[cheech70]

I think what Dolan said makes sense. We have cap space and holes in the top talent tier. We are not going to tank next year with Quinn as coach. He pushes the team to its max and during the regular season and thats good enough for a 500 team. So we will be picking 10 to 15 if we don't do much on elevating talent. So we sign breadman and ek to 2 spots that are thin you have started the process of building talent. We are not trading 1st rders or our top young players. Then as the contracts shed and our players mature we add more talent thru trades or free agent signings with Hank,Shatt and staal coming off the books at 20 million in 2 seasons after this. So if breadman and ek sign next year in there 3rd year we have 20 million in cap space and hopefully we get 1 or 2 elite youngsters. Your first round pick next year could slide to low teens or 20's if we make playoffs. So its 10 spots in the first round your giving up by trying to be competitive and start acquiring talent smartly.

PS I'd rather sign ek than give up assets for trouba

 

[TheTakedown]

I'm okay with the wait and see approach.

My timeline would be attached to the whoever turns out to be the best players out of all these picks they used recently and the picks they will use. That is going to take a while to mature, as will it take some time to remove some of the less desirable contracts already signed, thus I'd feel as if I had some time for the wait and see approach.

I'm not saying that approach won't work, it's just that you can't just "wait and see" with that approach--you have to actively continue to apply solutions to the team, because there's a good chance waiting won't produce anything

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Rangers gonna need a defensively sound RD. It will take to long to develop one. Trouba is to expensive. Brett Pesce should be the target. 5 years for a cap hit just over 4 million is very appealing. Take on Scott Darling in the trade and buy him out. Skjei plus a top forward project for Pesce and Darling?

Canes wanted Nylander for Pesce I highly doubt they do it for Skjei, who makes more then Pesce btw.

Faulk is a UFA after next season's end and will likely either price himself out of Carolina or choose to move on. TVR is also a UFA after next season as well. Canes really can't afford to move Pesce as that would leave them with Hamilton only on the RHD side. Earlier in the season, I thought the Canes might move Pesce for a legit top 6 forward (thus the Nylander comment). That need has dwindled to some extent with the acquisition of Nino so I don't think the Canes would be very motivated to move Pesce, particularly in a deal for another D or prospects.

If I had to guess, I think Faulk (and maybe TVR) might be moved this offseason and they'll go hard after signing Fox. It will leave them with Hamilton, Slavin, De Hann, and Pesce as their top 4 D and they can fill out the bottom with some combination of TVR, McKeown, Bean, Fleury and/or Fox if the get him signed.

 

[TheTakedown]

See above comment. And now I have to give up a prospect and a pick to get him here and then ask him to perform at a level that he is not performing at for 60 games a year? No thank you.

you're assuming "roster player" means a top 6 player...

Think more like what Tampa paid for McDonagh.

Conditional 1st, Howden, Namestnikov

I know I know there's the Miller and Hajek components, but when I say "roster player", I am insinuating a role player like Vesey or Nieves, not a top 6 player like Kreider.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Maybe the Canes realize this offseason that Fox won’t sign and they flip him to us for a pick.

Sort of like what Buffalo did with Vesey but not stupid.

 

[Fitzy]

I'm going to just guess that the Kreider stuff just isn't going to cease until we re-sign him.

 

[Trxjw]

Just how expensive is Trouba going to be though?

An Extended Trouba at $7M/year (good deal for a defender of his level) for a 1st, prospect, roster player? that's a fair price to pay to remove the 5 years it'll take to develop said defender, and that's assuming we find a guy of his caliber

The Carlson deal will probably keep him under $8m per, but he'll probably want around $7.5.

You can't deny that there's a lot of talent there, but between the injury history and the fact that he plays with a pretty strong D group it's tough to feel confident with a big contract. At least for me it is.

In an ideal world the Rangers find that player on his second deal like Zibanejad as opposed to right when he's demanding his 3rd. Or perhaps a guy who has some term left on a manageable deal but needs some rehabilitation.

 

[Trxjw]

I'm going to just guess that the Kreider stuff just isn't going to cease until we re-sign him.

I won't let that happen. If we re-sign him I'm going to start advocating for a trade just to keep everyone on their toes.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I won't let that happen. If we re-sign him I'm going to start advocating for a trade just to keep everyone on their toes.

Very noble of you.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I'm going to just guess that the Kreider stuff just isn't going to cease until we re-sign him.

RB will continue to push for a trade regardless.

 

[Off Sides]

I'm not saying that approach won't work, it's just that you can't just "wait and see" with that approach--you have to actively continue to apply solutions to the team, because there's a good chance waiting won't produce anything

I think they are actively trying to find solutions, on their own team with things like Pionk, ADA, yet I assume they are also looking at any options out there beyond that, maybe also options that may become available too.

Which was the basis for my post which you first quoted, they have drafted some defenders, they can draft more defenders. They see about trades for younger defenders. They start looking into every team's expansion scenarios, as well any players who may go the college to UFA route.

In the mean time they have to wait for the contracts to Staal, Shattenkirk, Smith to end or be traded, unless they are going to use buyouts. They are going to have to wait to see what all these current and future prospects do or do not.

I guess I see that as them actively looking for and trying to apply solutions.

 

[Trxjw]

Very noble of you.

"We do what we must, because we can."

 

[Fitzy]

On Dolan via Panarin and Karlsson-

Karlsson scares me a lot more than Panarin. Panarin I'm pretty confident would be at least a top 6 player through most of his contract. Karlsson just has the feel of one of those players who will start to break down at 30 and be in real trouble by 32. Add in the likely 3 mil or so difference in annual cap hit and It's very concerning.

I also don't think big signings- looking to accelerate the rebuild- makes a lot of sense unless we're somehow able to jettison guys like Staal, Smith, and Shattenkirk. That would give us a lot more cap space to play with, but you have to imagine it would come at a cost. I could see Staal retiring after his 3m salary bonus in summer of 2020, if that's allowed, since he'd only be making 1 mil that season.

I'll do my Bern post for the day though, since I have writing to do and am procrastinating.

Sign Panarin & Karlsson (21 million)
Bury Smith
Staal+2nd round pick to Arizona for a 7th.
Shattenkirk at 50% retained to St Louis blues for a 3rd.

Kreider-Zibanejad-Buchnevich
Chytil-Andersson-Panarin
Vesey-Howden-Lemieux
Namestnikov-Strome-Fast
Beleskey

Skjei-Karlsson
Hajek-DeAngelo
Lindgren/Rykov-Pionk
Claesson

Hank
Georg/Shesty

Kravtsov to start in the AHL.


Analysis- Good lines 1,3,4. Big question marks with Andersson and Chytil on line 2. I love the 4th line.
Very green defense- would need Skjei to play many minutes and we are somewhat short on penalty killing blueliners.

 

[haveandare]

The questions with Trouba are health and production.

Health wise, he's played 60 or less games 2 of his 6 seasons. Is that bad luck or something about his body or game? 2 injured seasons isn't a lot in a vacuum but it's 33% of his time in the NHL.

Production wise, before this year he broke 30 points once. That's not very good at all for a guy we're talking about giving something in the neighborhood of 7M to. 7M isn't 20-30 point d-man money to me, even these days. If he's going to be paid like a top pairing guy, he'll need to produce like one too. This is really the only year he's done that and it's a high scoring year and probably the deepest team he's played on yet.

I'm really not sold on him honestly. These are huge question marks for handing out the type of contract he'll want alone, never mind trading assets to get him first.

 

[TheTakedown]

I think they are actively trying to find solutions, on their own team with things like Pionk, ADA, yet I assume they are also looking at any options out there beyond that, maybe also options that may become available too.

Which was the basis for my post which you first quoted, they have drafted some defenders, they can draft more defenders. They see about trades for younger defenders. They start looking into every team's expansion scenarios, as well any players who may go the college to UFA route.

In the mean time they have to wait for the contracts to Staal, Shattenkirk, Smith to end or be traded, unless they are going to use buyouts. They are going to have to wait to see what all these current and future prospects do or do not.

I guess I see that as them actively looking for and trying to apply solutions.

And on that point, an active solution is getting Trouba to fortify the D corps and mitigate the 5 years of waiting for a guy to develop.

Muzzin is 30, had 1 year left on his deal, went for a 1st and 2 middling prospects.

an Extended Turris (I know he is a forward) cost Nashville a 2nd, a top 4 D Prospect, and a middle 6 forward prospect.

Rangers will have at least 2 1st's this offseason, possibly 4 1sts. Rangers could use one of those + a prospect like Howden + a Bottom 9 player like Vesey to get an Extended Trouba.

That's a fair deal for both sides when you assume Chevy isnt paying Trouba, and Howden is going to take a QO with no arbitration rights.

 

[True Blue]

you're assuming "roster player" means a top 6 player...

Think more like what Tampa paid for McDonagh.

Conditional 1st, Howden, Namestnikov

I know I know there's the Miller and Hajek components, but when I say "roster player", I am insinuating a role player like Vesey or Nieves, not a top 6 player like Kreider.

Again, not interested at all. No need and no need to rush to pay a brittle player to be someone that he is not.

 

[True Blue]

We are not going to tank next year with Quinn as coach. He pushes the team to its max and during the regular season and thats good enough for a 500 team. So we will be picking 10 to 15 if we don't do much on elevating talent.

No one is tanking. As is, this team will be worse next year than this year. You are probably talking a bottom-5 team again.

So we sign breadman and ek to 2 spots that are thin you have started the process of building talent.

No because adding those two to this team still does not make the team a true contender. Then you are talking about what you are going to pay those two players when they are a bit older and locked into long term big money contracts by the time you will be ready to utilize your cap space.