Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIII

[Thirty One]

Seriously though, there are a lot of comments about how we ‘really’ will suck if we don’t get Panarin. Probably, you never know for sure how a season will go.

But like how will we perform — if — we get Panarin? Are everyone assuming that we would get 15 more pts if we sign him? How much better would we be with Panarin instead of just keeping Zucc but moving Hayes?

Panarin and Ziba aren’t an ultimate fit together on the PP. In a sense Zucc is more valuable to our PP than Panarin would be, just because Zib and Pan block each other.

5 on 5 Panarin makes a significant higher impact on — one — line than Zucc would have. Say that 1/5 guys is 20% better 14 minutes of 5 on 5 ice time per night? You can’t count like that of course, but it does raises some questions.

My point is just, Panarin isn’t going to have a big impact on this team next season. If you feel that we ‘really’ will suck without Panarin, I don’t think adding him change much.

Panarin played on the right wall on the CBJ powerplay before they got Duchene. He's a playmaker, that's where I'd want him on a NYR PP.

But yeah, I think most would expect the team to still be bad with Panarin.

 

[Beacon]

I am still waiting for it to begin.

An average player hits his prime around 24-26 years of age. That means someone drafted in 2010/11/12 is only hitting his prime now. We began rebuilding with the Stepan for Lias+ADA trade in 2017. Still very early.

Not impressed by many of "youngsters" we have playing on team right now. When was last time we actually drafted an impact player. 2018 draft too soon to tell but IMO 2017 not impressive. Anderson is at best a lower line prospect. Lacks basic skill sets and skating to be anything else.

Lias was a safe pick because he was literally the start of the rebuilding effort, and Gorton didnt want to miss on his first at bat, preferred a safe single just to get on base. The team went for homeruns with the next 3 firsts: Chytil, Kravtsov and K'Andre. With 2, maybe 3 (maybe even 4, though unlikely) firsts this year, we will likely add at least one more high ceiling prospect. The goal at this point is to keep stockpiling assets.

No team will trade away top prospects. Would we deal away Chytil or Kratsov? Why would anyone else?

But you can acquire guys like Howden and the 3 Stooges (Hajek, Rykov and Lindgren) who have the potential to be quality NHLers without a star ceiling, so you have no need to draft another Lias because the cap requires you to add at least 1 rookie per season to be relevant. That's also why you get guys like Strome, Claude Jr. - if you have depth, you can afford to swing for the stars.

So while you may not be impressed with the boatload of unspectacular youth (Lias, Howden, Lemieux, Strome, Nieves, Vinni, Meskanen, ADA, Pionk, Lundkvist, Hajek, Rykov, Lindgren), we need them to allow us go build a quality team.

Getting all these picks are nice but at some point you need to build part of the foundation with good fairly young established players.

At some point, yes. That point isnt 1.5 years into the start of the rebuilding when none of the kids you drafted can buy a beer.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Seriously though, there are a lot of comments about how we ‘really’ will suck if we don’t get Panarin. Probably, you never know for sure how a season will go.

But like how will we perform — if — we get Panarin? Are everyone assuming that we would get 15 more pts if we sign him? How much better would we be with Panarin instead of just keeping Zucc but moving Hayes?

Panarin and Ziba aren’t an ultimate fit together on the PP. In a sense Zucc is more valuable to our PP than Panarin would be, just because Zib and Pan block each other.

5 on 5 Panarin makes a significant higher impact on — one — line than Zucc would have. Say that 1/5 guys is 20% better 14 minutes of 5 on 5 ice time per night? You can’t count like that of course, but it does raises some questions.

My point is just, Panarin isn’t going to have a big impact on this team next season. If you feel that we ‘really’ will suck without Panarin, I don’t think adding him change much.

Oh they’ll still suck.

But there is a pretty big difference between 7-12 bad and 1-3 bad. Like we’re legit Ottawa bad right now, and if Kreider goes this summer....

 

[Ola]

I am still waiting for it to begin. Not impressed by many of "youngsters" we have playing on team right now. When was last time we actually drafted an impact player. 2018 draft too soon to tell but IMO 2017 not impressive. Anderson is at best a lower line prospect. Lacks basic skill sets and skating to be anything else. Getting all these picks are nice but at some point you need to build part of the foundation with good fairly young established players. The concept of getting rid of everyone on the other side of 25 is ridiculous. This is not like Madden football. Maybe Kreider would produce even more if he played with NHL players. Same for Zib. Right now we have maybe 3 or 4 legit forwards on this team and maybe 2 defense men.

I don’t think you should be impressed by them. A rebuild in hockey isn’t going to be pretty. So many players need at least 4-5 years to get ready to assume a bigger role. The exceptions are rare. And it’s also important to remember that early development not as a norm means a better end result. A Tyler Myers can be deemed the King of a draft in D+2 and then a total bust 2-3 years later. Del Zotto had an amazing rookie season for us. And so forth.

Kreider was dumped in the AHL — and sucked — in his 4th season after getting drafted. Then he was a bust, now nobody wants to trade him. Hayes made the NHL his 5th season after getting drafted (right?). Had an OK rookie year. Then he was worthless his 6th season after getting drafted and was a bust, and has improved since.

Where was Panarin at 18-19?

Hockey is such an advanced sport, it’s not about talent, it’s about development. It’s like gymnastics. Some half serious 15 y/o girl doing gymnastics 3- 4 times a week out in some small town would never even remotely be able to compete with a peer training at an elite school, they wouldn’t be on the same planet. Talent can not to a large extent make up for training. Hockey is getting more like that. Everyone are talented, the big difference is training. The exceptions like a Barzal or McAvoy making a super early impact doesn’t change the rule.

This is JMO. I don’t think I am afraid to raise concerns when I have them or that I am as a rule is overly optimistic or something. I wouldn’t say that everyone in the system will reach/exceed expectations. But I would — definitely — claim that I think you will be very positively surprised by how these kids will have developed over the coming 5-6 years. Especially if we keep doing the right things.

And that might involve getting a bit more support for the kids playing, don’t have to be Panarin but maybe more than what they have right now. Sure, but I don’t think we have to be pessimistic about the kids on the team due to the team not competing in the NHL.

 

[Ola]

Oh they’ll still suck.

But there is a pretty big difference between 7-12 bad and 1-3 bad. Like we’re legit Ottawa bad right now, and if Kreider goes this summer....

Didn’t we all know that it would go downhill after the deadline no matter what? Maybe not Detroit, but almost all teams we play now wants it so much more than us. We still brought it against Washington, same roster. Let’s call a spade a spade, we are totally mailing it in now.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Didn’t we all know that it would go downhill after the deadline no matter what? Maybe not Detroit, but almost all teams we play now wants it so much more than us. We still brought it against Washington, same roster. Let’s call a spade a spade, we are totally mailing it in now.

Yes we did.

I think brought it against Washington is a bit strong. They were "up" for that game more than others (I'm sure they will be for the Pens next week as well) but they were still outplayed.

Plus the other team doesn't always "bring it." Washington was pretty damn meh in that game.

 

[Ola]

Panarin played on the right wall on the CBJ powerplay before they got Duchene. He's a playmaker, that's where I'd want him on a NYR PP.

But yeah, I think most would expect the team to still be bad with Panarin.

Aha, OK, actually didn’t know that. It’s a bit unconventional (unless you go that outside in style that Toronto does on both sides).

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Why do people think the rebuild stops if we sign Panarin? All it does is accelerate everything by a year. We have a ton of young players, will have a lot of cap room for a while and Panarin makes everyone around him better, something the kids could use. If we can sign him at a reasonable $ amount we have to do it and keep doing the same thing we are doing now but with another top line player.

 

[Kovalev27]

I’ll tell you what we can’t do. Is abandon Zibanejad. You can’t trade kreider too and leave him with teenagers. He’s too good a player. Tough tough spot here especially if Panarin really wants to be here.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Why do people think the rebuild stops if we sign Panarin? All it does is accelerate everything by a year. We have a ton of young players, will have a lot of cap room for a while and Panarin makes everyone around him better, something the kids could use. If we can sign him at a reasonable $ amount we have to do it and keep doing the same thing we are doing now but with another top line player.

That’s the thing...

Him signing at a reasonable rate is wishful thinking and they need to grow their own stars before trying to add one from the outside.

He doesn’t turn them into a playoff team by himself, but he does get in the way of that happening.

But all the pro Panarin people need to ask themselves why he would want any part of this team right now. We suckkkkkk

 

[cwede]

i like this news, because if Wall doesn't sign this spring,
I'd like NYR to consider Joe Rayymakers, who spent '17 training camp w NYR.
Joseph Raaymakers at eliteprospects.com
He spent '18 camp w CBJ, which might have given them the inside track ...

 

[Thirty One]

That’s the thing...

Him signing at a reasonable rate is wishful thinking and they need to grow their own stars before trying to add one from the outside.

He doesn’t turn them into a playoff team by himself, but he does get in the way of that happening.

But all the pro Panarin people need to ask themselves why he would want any part of this team right now. We suckkkkkk

Lots of belief he's looking for a city more than a team.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Lots of belief he's looking for a city more than a team.

Yes team on the coast.

There are many of them who can offer him the dollars and a chance to compete immediately.

 

[Mikos87]

i like this news, because if Wall doesn't sign this spring,
I'd like NYR to consider Joe Rayymakers, who spent '17 training camp w NYR.
Joseph Raaymakers at eliteprospects.com
He spent '18 camp w CBJ, which might have given them the inside track ...

Elvis is a really good prospect. Has been a stop goalie in the Swiss league for the last several years. I think he can push for a back-up spot next year. Some think he's got starter potential.

 

[Thirty One]

Yes team on the coast.

There are many of them who can offer him the dollars and a chance to compete immediately.

Examples of these many teams?

And I've never heard of the coast being his requirement. Portzline's original list of Panarin's preferences included Chicago and Dallas.

 

[Trxjw]

Why do people think the rebuild stops if we sign Panarin? All it does is accelerate everything by a year. We have a ton of young players, will have a lot of cap room for a while and Panarin makes everyone around him better, something the kids could use. If we can sign him at a reasonable $ amount we have to do it and keep doing the same thing we are doing now but with another top line player.

How does Panarin accelerate everything by a year? He doesn't cut a year off of the Staal, Smith, or Shattenkirk contracts. He doesn't force the development of any player ahead by a year. He doesn't turn this team into a playoff team. So what exactly is he accelerating?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Examples of these many teams?

And I've never heard of the coast being his requirement. Portzline's original list of Panarin's preferences included Chicago and Dallas.

Think the coast thing came from McKenzie.

Ok many was the wrong word, but Philly and Florida jump off the page to me right away, Isles, perhaps the Bruins And depending on how their season ends I can see Tampa doing some pretty significant reconstruction and getting involved too.

If Chicago and Dallas are also options and the coast thing is incorrect, that only adds to the unlikelihood of him ending up here.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

That’s the thing...

Him signing at a reasonable rate is wishful thinking and they need to grow their own stars before trying to add one from the outside.

He doesn’t turn them into a playoff team by himself, but he does get in the way of that happening.

But all the pro Panarin people need to ask themselves why he would want any part of this team right now. We suckkkkkk

How does he get in the way of anything? One player doesnt turn any team from a rebuild into a playoff team, why does he have to? You can add players and rebuild at the same time as long as you arent trading picks or prospects for them. Basically getting him is free talent as we wont be using that cap space for a while anyway. I dont see any players on this roster right now that will require a high level pay for the next 4 or 5 years, if its Panarin's cap hit you are worried about there is nothing to worry about. Lundqvist, Staal, Smith, Shattenkirk will all be gone in the next couple years. We are gonna be struggling to get to the cap floor not the ceiling if we dont add others. The question of why he would come here is valid with regards to the team but it is New York, we have young Russian players coming on board and if it was all about money and the team he would just stay in Columbus. 7×9.5 mill would be fine with me.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

How does Panarin accelerate everything by a year? He doesn't cut a year off of the Staal, Smith, or Shattenkirk contracts. He doesn't force the development of any player ahead by a year. He doesn't turn this team into a playoff team. So what exactly is he accelerating?

He adds another top line player that we dont have to draft that's how. Why is everyone focused on the Staal Smith shattenkirk contracts? Those guys are gone in a couple years along with Lundqvist, we will shed somewhere around 25 mill there. We will struggle to get to the floor after that not the ceiling.

 

[Dijock94]

How does Panarin accelerate everything by a year? He doesn't cut a year off of the Staal, Smith, or Shattenkirk contracts. He doesn't force the development of any player ahead by a year. He doesn't turn this team into a playoff team. So what exactly is he accelerating?

Getting us a worse pick next year in a loaded draft, and giving us a contract that will be brutal and impossible to move half way through the deal.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

How does he get in the way of anything? One player doesnt turn any team from a rebuild into a playoff team, why does he have to? You can add players and rebuild at the same time as long as you arent trading picks or prospects for them. Basically getting him is free talent as we wont be using that cap space for a while anyway. I dont see any players on this roster right now that will require a high level pay for the next 4 or 5 years, if its Panarin's cap hit you are worried about there is nothing to worry about. Lundqvist, Staal, Smith, Shattenkirk will all be gone in the next couple years. We are gonna be struggling to get to the cap floor not the ceiling if we dont add others. The question of why he would come here is valid with regards to the team but it is New York, we have young Russian players coming on board and if it was all about money and the team he would just stay in Columbus. 7×9.5 mill would be fine with me.

He’s probably getting more than that on the open market.

Also read the post above mine.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Getting us a worse pick next year in a loaded draft, and giving us a contract that will be brutal and impossible to move half way through the deal.

We have accumulated enough first rounders now, it's time to start chugging baby steps forward. The cap continues to go up and up, Pastranaks deal is a bargain now and the deal McDavid signed seems ridiculous in comparison to the others now. Panarin at 10 mill in 3.5 years will be like 7 now. It wont be a problem.

 

[RGY]

The Sign Panarin argument is centered around the aim for the 2020-2021 season. That is when we are hoping a lot of our 1st round picks start to blossom. Again that is Chytil’s 3rd year full year. Possibly Kravtsov and Lias 2nd full year. Howden’s 3rd full year.

If those kids plus whomever we draft this year are not making the push by the 20-21 season then our scouting department has failed us. And those obviously are not our only prospects to choose from.

So signing Panarin is still a possibility to help join that group. I do not see his play dropping off for another 3-4 years, if being significant at all. You still need to surround the kids with proven elite talent. It would serve the kids well.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

We have accumulated enough first rounders now, it's time to start chugging baby steps forward. The cap continues to go up and up, Pastranaks deal is a bargain now and the deal McDavid signed seems ridiculous in comparison to the others now. Panarin at 10 mill in 3.5 years will be like 7 now. It wont be a problem.

Have we?

How can you possibly know that before most of those guys even step foot on NHL ice.

Also, 10 mill is wildly optimistic.

 

[RGY]

Have we?

How can you possibly know that before most of those guys even step foot on NHL ice.

Also, 10 mill is wildly optimistic.

We may not know that. But we have a lot of money coming off the books in the next 2-3 years. We will likely never have this many 1st round picks in our cupboard ever again. The cap will go up each year as it has. You add an elite veteran player to the stockpile you have. If the group turns out to be a dud then you have bigger problems than having signed Panarin at whatever cap hit it ends up being. But i am banking on this group of prospects being impactful quality NHL drafted by the management group we have and I want to add a high end vet to the crop