Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXI

[effen]

And obviously based on the Stanley Cup trophy Columbus has, that was a great idea.

This is a pretty juvenile way of looking at things.

 

[mas0764]

This is a pretty juvenile way of looking at things.

I’d argue that exhibiting no patience for a proper rebuild and wanting to go all in the very second the team is in the playoffs again is a very juvenile way of looking at things.

I’m also not sure you are using that word properly.

 

[mas0764]

Let’s be honest here. Most of the time, buying at the deadline results in failure (you don’t win the Cup).

I don’t understand the league’s obsession with it. It seems to me to be a hockey cultural thing that a smart GM could exploit habitually, if they weren’t forced to buy into such platitudes of “needing to go for it.”

Overpaying is never how to build a sustainable winning program. You do that by winning transactions over and over and over. Sometimes that requires delayed gratification, but if you are willing to do that you can clean up.

 

[CommaSynapse]

Kinkaid has played playoff hockey, has he not? Shesterkin gets all the playoff starts anyway.

Then you're just one disaster away from starting goaltender Keith Kinkaid in the playoffs.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Let’s be honest here. Most of the time, buying at the deadline results in failure.

I don’t understand the league’s obsession with it. It seems to me to be a hockey cultural thing that a smart GM could exploit habitually, if they weren’t forced to buy into such platitudes of “needing to go for it.”

Overpaying is never how to built a sustainable winning program.

Im pretty sure ive yet to see a stanley cup champ not buy at the deadline. Its not always a net positive addition, but almost everyone who wins a cup does it.
Some of it is psychological, but some of it is filling holes.

 

[mas0764]

Then you're just one disaster away from starting goaltender Keith Kinkaid in the playoffs.

Yeah but my point was, he’s played in the playoffs well before, so I’m not sure that outcome is much worse than Georgiev starting in the playoffs. Are either of them good enough? I don’t care if I lose 4-2 or 5-2.

 

[mas0764]

Im pretty sure ive yet to see a stanley cup champ not buy at the deadline. Its not always a net positive addition, but almost everyone who wins a cup does it.
Some of it is psychological, but some of it is filling holes.

Just two years ago the Blues made no deadline additions at all and the only thing before that was Michael Del Zotto for a sixth.

The year right before the Capitals only gave up 5th and 3rd round picks in February before the deadline.

The year before that the Penguins gave up two fourth rounders, Eric Fehr and Steve Olesky at the deadline.

All three of those teams won the Cup.

I’m ok with giving up something small like that, but for us, that’s like, not even Tarmo Reunanen. It’s like giving up Tim Gettinger. It’s like giving up Greg McKegg.

The point is it can be done. You don’t need to buy at the deadline if the value is no good. And the past few deadlines the value has been terrible for buyers.

 

[McRanger92]

And obviously based on the Stanley Cup trophy Columbus has, that was a great idea.

was referencing Dallas’ situation, not the Rangers

 

[McRanger92]

I’d argue that exhibiting no patience for a proper rebuild and wanting to go all in the very second the team is in the playoffs again is a very juvenile way of looking at things.

I’m also not sure you are using that word properly.

Yeah well they aren’t rebuilding. They are first in the league. Adjust your expectations.

 

[egelband]

Just two years ago the Blues made no deadline additions at all and the only thing before that was Michael Del Zotto for a sixth.

The year right before the Capitals only gave up 5th and 3rd round picks in February before the deadline.

The year before that the Penguins gave up two fourth rounders, Eric Fehr and Steve Olesky at the deadline.

All three of those teams won the Cup.

I’m ok with giving up something small like that, but for us, that’s like, not even Tarmo Reunanen. It’s like giving up Tim Gettinger. It’s like giving up Greg McKegg.

The point is it can be done. You don’t need to buy at the deadline if the value is no good. And the past few deadlines the value has been terrible for buyers.

Those teams were further along in their evolution though. The rangers need some things. I agree, no need to go crazy. But they’ve got some assets to trade. Primarily I’d like to see what we can get for Chytil. Could be a hockey trade there. Also Hajek should go. And I’d love to find a permanent home for Georgiev. Anyhow, I’d keep an open mind. See what materializes.

 

[jay from jersey]

Man if the Rangers stay in the Top 3 in the Metro by the TDL, I'd go all in on this season. There will be tons of cap space for this season alone that I'd target Joe Pavelski or Ryan Getzlaf for 3C, Nick Leddy or Mark Giordano for 3rd pair D, and Phil Kessel for RW depth. With the cap being prorated by the TDL this would all work capwise so how about these deals:

Joe Pavelski and a 3rd Round Pick
For
Filip Chytil

Nick Leddy
For
Patrik Nemeth and a 4th Round Pick

Phil Kessel [with some salary retained]
For
Alexandar Georgiev, Matthew Robertson and a 3rd Round Pick


Kreider-Zibanejad-Kessel
Panarin-Strome-Kakko
Lafreniere-Pavelski-Gauthier
Goodrow-Rooney-Reaves/Hunt

Lindgren-Fox
Miller-Trouba
Leddy-Lundkvist/Jones

Shesterkin
Kinkaid

hell no on giving Robertson up for a TDL rental. Yes we have depth on the left, but a 6’4 210*+ D man that can move the puck carries a lot of value.
Robertson isn’t as far along as others atm, but he’s got a a lot of value.
Runner up for WHL D of the year to Schneider and he’s gotten better and more comfortable with the Pack as the year has went on.
If you trading him, he’s a prime piece going back as part of a package for a long term young cost controlled 2C.
He likely needs another year in the AHL with heavy 1st pair minutes before nhl duty anyway.

I think in that situation above, Gauthier would sit while goodrow plays 3rd line and Hunt on 4th.....

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Chytil has very murky value, but you could probably swap him for another teams change of scenery kiddo fairly easily. A lot harder to trade him for something else

As far how zadina himself helps, that's up to the pro scouts.

If we’re trading Chytil for another struggling prospect, it should be for a Center. Hell, I’d rather see Chytil given a real look at RW before moving him for someone like Zadina who has struggled more than Chytil has imo.

I don’t think Chytil is the centerpiece in a 3 for 1 trade some folks here are expecting. He doesn’t move the needle for a guy like Larkin, Horvat, or Karlsson. Even with Lundkvist/Jones+1st attached.

We could very well see Chytil moved in a swap where both clubs are hoping a change of scenery benefits the team. I just don’t believe that iZadina is the right prospect for that scenario considering he can’t play C, and Chytil kind of can.

 

[jay from jersey]

CBJ did that because they dont have as long of a history as most teams and also havent come close to winning.

Dallas made it to the cup final, even if it was in the bubble. They were decimated with covid issues during the shortened season last year while also being a group that was another year older. They are now just another year older this season for a full 82 with this group. I dont see them going all in if they are not securely in a playoff spot.

this. CBJ is a terrible comp. they went all in because they knew they’d have little chance of keeping some of their prime players like Panarin.
Jarmo likely knew he had 1 foot out the door already.
They saw it as perhaps their last possible chance with maximum talent before a serious retool.
They also didn’t have anything crazy coming up in their farm system.
Rangers are built differently, and players actually want to come here. Sometimes even taking lower offers to do so

 

[FIRE DRURY]

hell no on giving Robertson up for a TDL rental. Yes we have depth on the left, but a 6’4 210*+ D man that can move the puck carries a lot of value.
Robertson isn’t as far along as others atm, but he’s got a a lot of value.
Runner up for WHL D of the year to Schneider and he’s gotten better and more comfortable with the Pack as the year has went on.
If you trading him, he’s a prime piece going back as part of a package for a long term young cost controlled 2C.
He likely needs another year in the AHL with heavy 1st pair minutes before nhl duty anyway

Even with a few adds, I don’t think this team is ready to make a serious push for the Cup this year.

Robertson has become completely overshadowed since drafting Schneider. That doesn’t mean we should dangle him for a playoff rental. He’s too good a prospect for that imo.

 

[jay from jersey]

Even with a few adds, I don’t think this team is ready to make a serious push for the Cup this year.

Robertson has become completely overshadowed since drafting Schneider. That doesn’t mean we should dangle him for a playoff rental. He’s too good a prospect for that imo.

Yup. Absolutely.
He has solid top 4 minute eating potential written all over him, with a large frame and good mobility to boot.
There’s be a ton of teams looking to add a cost controlled D like that on the left

 

[CommaSynapse]

Yup. Absolutely.
He has solid top 4 minute eating potential written all over him, with a large frame and good mobility to boot.
There’s be a ton of teams looking to add a cost controlled D like that on the left

A ton. Looking through CapFriendly, a number of teams are missing quality d-men even on their second pair.

There’s almost a kind of talent dilution at the moment. Between injuries and COVID-protocol, depth could be king this postseason.

 

[Ola]

Rask is a piece of furniture. Paul Fenton made a terrible trade a few years ago (Nino Neiderriter) without scouting the player. Minnesota has tried to move him several times.

I refer to what I’ve said about him all along:

Also unbelievable that he got the contract he did by Carolina in the first place.

How could a trade like that go down? They really don’t scout the player? Just look at size and stats?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Those teams were further along in their evolution though. The rangers need some things. I agree, no need to go crazy. But they’ve got some assets to trade. Primarily I’d like to see what we can get for Chytil. Could be a hockey trade there. Also Hajek should go. And I’d love to find a permanent home for Georgiev. Anyhow, I’d keep an open mind. See what materializes.

All the more reason to not be buyers at the deadline. Those are needs you address with long term additions, not rentals. Especially not rentals in exchange for a 1st or a top prospect.

 

[egelband]

All the more reason to not be buyers at the deadline. Those are needs you address with long term additions, not rentals. Especially not rentals in exchange for a 1st or a top prospect.

You’ll agree, we could move extras like cap space, Hajek, Georgiev, maybe Chytil, to bolster the team for the playoffs. No need to mortgage the future but clearly we should take out best shot.

 

[haohmaru]

Let’s be honest here. Most of the time, buying at the deadline results in failure (you don’t win the Cup).

If the measure of failure is not winning the Cup then 97% of teams fail every year.

 

[Ola]

If the measure of failure is not winning the Cup then 97% of teams fail every year.

At the same time, the 'eye test' often seem to confirm that at least teams adding big name scorers at the deadline basically become worse after it. And there are some logic behind that, balance is so important and it also takes time to gel for a new player.

I am against rentals, unless its pure complimentary types/depth. OTOH, I am all for Drury moving futures for players -- with retention -- that has 2-3 more year left on their contract. A cheap Coleman was huge for Tampa.

 

[Vitto79]

Let’s be honest here. Most of the time, buying at the deadline results in failure (you don’t win the Cup).

I don’t understand the league’s obsession with it. It seems to me to be a hockey cultural thing that a smart GM could exploit habitually, if they weren’t forced to buy into such platitudes of “needing to go for it.”

Overpaying is never how to build a sustainable winning program. You do that by winning transactions over and over and over. Sometimes that requires delayed gratification, but if you are willing to do that you can clean up.

well some can argue draft picks are overrated so is it really overpaying ?

 

[haohmaru]

At the same time, the 'eye test' often seem to confirm that at least teams adding big name scorers at the deadline basically become worse after it. And there are some logic behind that, balance is so important and it also takes time to gel for a new player.

I am against rentals, unless its pure complimentary types/depth. OTOH, I am all for Drury moving futures for players -- with retention -- that has 2-3 more year left on their contract. A cheap Coleman was huge for Tampa.

Agree - I only like "rentals" that are a longer term investment than an end of season/playoff run and then UFA.

If you're moving assets for a puzzle piece that's a fit for years and not days that makes the team better short and long term that happens to be a deadline deal then I'm in. Otherwise, huge cost, marginal if any impact and huge pass.

 

[jay from jersey]

We have cap space. The rangers without a doubt are going to add a mercenary or 2 for the playoffs. Many don’t see the team as a finished product or a contender, and that’s fine. But they are in 1st place.
They have tight chemistry and play as a team. A Norris D. Elite goalie. Elite wing. Good secondary help etc.
You don’t just throw all that away and stand still because your gun shy. I’m not advocating trading 1sts or top prospects, but certainly there will be trades.
Those who think they won’t are incorrect and are throwing the entire Business aspect of the NHL out of the equation.
More playoff games/wins equals millions of dollars more that the team makes in revenue.
With the likely possibility of potentially the last year of strome/Panarin - shesty/Geo - Kreider/Trouba/Zibby. Etc altogether, all playing well, you don’t just sit on your hands.
You take a calculated risk, Gamble what you can, that doesn’t cripple you or the farm and try to add some pieces to make the team stronger going into the playoffs.
The hope is to propel the team past your original assessment and make more money in the process.
The mandate for this season was to make playoffs, get some experience for the kids, and be harder to play against.
All those goals are likely completed atm.
Just that they hit their goals for the season, doesn’t mean you don’t strive for better.

 

[egelband]

We have cap space. The rangers without a doubt are going to add a mercenary or 2 for the playoffs. Many don’t see the team as a finished product or a contender, and that’s fine. But they are in 1st place.
They have tight chemistry and play as a team. A Norris D. Elite goalie. Elite wing. Good secondary help etc.
You don’t just throw all that away and stand still because your gun shy. I’m not advocating trading 1sts or top prospects, but certainly there will be trades.
Those who think they won’t are incorrect and are throwing the entire Business aspect of the NHL out of the equation.

Yep. There is a middle ground. Use the cap and some of the lesser futures to improve. Don’t need to go nuts. But surely a Kessel would be of value. And maybe we can get a forward from Las Vegas for cap space. Something like that.