Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIX

[Jaromir Jagr]

Only way I'm moving Kreider is if its Nylander and a 1st.

What? I would move him for Nylander straight up.

 

[duhmetreE]

This is the kind of baseless compliment a player gets just because he's been around for a while.

Kreider never particularly struck me as some sort of team leader. I think he's exactly as valuable as his stats indicate, and that translates to a term/$$$ figure that the Rangers cannot and should not entertain.

Baseless? have you watched any hockey this year? He drives the play. He's the catalyst for Zibanejad. That does not show up in conventional stats

 

[Gardner McKay]

What? I would move him for Nylander straight up.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of Nylander. However, I do agree that one for one would be a fair trade. We get the younger player under control. Toronto gets the playoff performer for a few playoff runs and saves on their cap.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Wasn't Talbot already traded? (I'm way behind in this thread)

Yes, for Anthony Stolarz from Philly. I can't imagine the Oilers have any interest in Georgiev now that Stolarz is there.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I thought it was pretty clear. My reason for not signing Panarin is that I find it pretty unlikely we'll be anything more than a bottom 10 team next year. However, on the off chance that we actually improve (based on those assumptions made in my previous post) then resigning Kreider might not be such a bad thing. It's impossible for me to assess what this team will be like a year from now. Especially considering we still have the chance to potentially get a top tier talent in the draft. That changes things enormously. A Kaakko or Hughes in the organization changes the nature of the rebuild.

Moreover, from recent history, I think the added value between trading a guy now, versus next deadline is pretty overblown. This market is also a really bad one for forwards because of how many are available. We could actually luck out next year if there are not many teams selling. We just don't know. If they get a great offer for Kreids today, they should obviously take it, but if it's not something really good, then holding out to see where we're at next deadline wouldn't be the dumbest decision.

So overall, I'm fine if the trade Kreider, but I don't see it as an absolutely necessity whereas Hayes and Zucc obviously are.

Allow me to offer an argument in favor of the necessity. Kreider has 2 years remaining on his sweetheart of a deal and would wield the greatest value, by far, to the organization in a trade.

There has to come a time when the Rangers start cashing in their chips a little earlier to maximize their value - because I have serious reservations this rebuild is going where it needs to with late firsts/2nd rounders and a teams 4th best prospect.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Personally, I am not a huge fan of Nylander. However, I do agree that one for one would be a fair trade. We get the younger player under control. Toronto gets the playoff performer for a few playoff runs and saves on their cap.

I can sympathize with that. But I still think it would be a good move for both teams. Nylander is a really solid #2. And we would have a legit #1 and #2, both under control and under 25. That's 2 solid pieces to build from.

Regardless, there is no way in hell Toronto is adding a first to Nylander lol.

Kreider has never hit 60 points. Nylander's done it twice. Kreider has hit 50 once. Sure, he's having a career year this year, but that doesn't override 5 years of play. Especially when you're taking on a guy who's much older.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Allow me to offer an argument in favor of the necessity. Kreider has 2 years remaining on his sweetheart of a deal and would wield the greatest value, by far, to the organization in a trade.

There has to come a time when the Rangers start cashing in their chips a little earlier to maximize their value - because I have serious reservations this rebuild is going where it needs to with late firsts/2nd rounders and a teams 4th best prospect.

1. I disagree with the premise that offers this year will undoubtedly blow away offers next year.

2. I have said, in nearly every post on this subject, that I am absolutely for trading Kreider if the package is good.

3. I have seen nothing that leads me to believe a team is ready and willing to give up a top 10 pick for him, or their leading prospect. If they are, then obviously the Rangers should pull the trigger.

4. When you create the necessity to move someone, you end up getting a package that is underwhelming. Therfore, I tthink the Rangers should be taking offers on Kreider, but if they don't get what they deem fair value, they shouldn't feel it a necessity to move him. This is what happened last year with McD, although I was one of the few at the time who felt that package was pretty fair. Still, Gorton painted himself into a corner with that dumb letter and in the last week of the deadline when it was made clear he would be moving.

 

[TheBPA]

I can sympathize with that. But I still think it would be a good move for both teams. Nylander is a really solid #2. And we would have a legit #1 and #2, both under control and under 25. That's 2 solid pieces to build from.

Regardless, there is no way in hell Toronto is adding a first to Nylander lol.

Kreider has never hit 60 points. Nylander's done it twice. Kreider has hit 50 once. Sure, he's having a career year this year, but that doesn't override 5 years of play. Especially when you're taking on a guy who's much older.

I also think a guy like Nylander is a perfect complement to big Z. A pass first winger with a shoot first center.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

It's interesting though because it gives a glimpse into the relationship between some of the GM's and these 'insiders'. It's not just a one way street

I will agree here, Friedman's podcast today sure sounded like he had a conversation with Gorton rather than spitballing like usual. I just don't see Gorton and Co whining about things to their media buddies. And by the way, there is too much of a link between Mcquaid and Toronto for there to be no smoke, its clear that Dubas is acting like he doesn't want him just to lower the price.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

I would love Toronto's 2020 1st, that team is gonna get pummeled by offer sheets and will be rough next year, Kreider for Nylander and the 2020 1st would be great, I would add Pionk to get one of their younger guys too.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Why do people think Kreider is worth Nylander + First. This is not reality.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

William Nylander will be a NYR at some point in his career, IDK if it will be this season, but mark my words he will be one.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Why do people think Kreider is worth Nylander + First. This is not reality.

I think that sort of deal would look more like Kreider @ 50% for Nylander, Horton, and a 2nd

 

[LaffyTaffy]

I honestly believe that Gorton wants Nylander in a Zibby 2.0 trade. Kreider has never had a 60 point season though, so convincing Dubas that Kreider is worth Nylander + would literally be Mission Impossible

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

I think that sort of deal would look more like Kreider @ 50% for Nylander, Horton, and a 2nd

If we're taking on Horton, while also eating 2+mil of Kreids' salary, I think I'd want a conditional first. In this scenario, we'd literally be giving them 9 million extra in cap space. That in and of itself is worth a first in my opinion.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I honestly believe that Gorton wants Nylander in a Zibby 2.0 trade. Kreider has never had a 60 point season though, so convincing Dubas that Kreider is worth Nylander + would literally be Mission Impossible

Don't forget about the cap savings that come along with that deal. Leafs gonna need every few million they can get here and there. Honestly they should be trading Nylander for a defenseman.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I think if you give Nylander the chance to be the star in NY he will take the ball and run with it. I take that deal

 

[TheTakedown]

They had multiple high picks in a row in Dumba-Granlund-Brodin.

They even landed a former 5OA in a steal of a trade (yes this happened later)

That’s the direction we’re headed in if JG does what he shouldn’t do.

No....

What happened was the Wild committed $26M of the $64.3M cap to Suter+Parise.... That's 40.5% of the salary cap--20.25% per player--for two guys who were good players--not elite players. They still didn't have a legitimate goaltender either.

a) You aren't allowed to hand out a contract that long anymore
b) The Wild are particularly screwed because they can't commit a buyout on those contracts without massive cap repercussions
c) Neither of these guys were amazing when they were signed. Suter was a top pairing guy, sure, but parise was simply a top 6 forward on a devils team that had solid goaltending and a stacked D corps.... Parise himself wasn't even good... We're talking about the same team that had David Clarkson scoring 20 goals.... TWENTY...
d) Even today, at a $79.5M cap ceiling, Suter+Parise account for 33% of the cap

A Free Agent signing like Panarin or Karlsson is not going to be the same as those guys
a) Panarin will cost no more than $10M, and even on a $79.5M Salary cap (lets assume the cap doesn't go up), that's still only 12.6% of the cap.
b) Karlsson will cost no more than $12M, and even on a $79.5M Salary cap (lets assume the cap doesn't go up), that's still only 16% of the cap.

Contracts today don't allow a team to do what the Wild did to themselves. Hell, a team could sign both Karlsson AND Panarin, get 5 solid years out of the 8 total, not be stuck with anything beyond 8 years, and that would only be 28% of the salary cap, which is STILL 5% less than what the the cap charges are against the Wild with those Suter+Parise Contracts. These are tehthe WORST of BAD contracts.... I don't think we'll ever see one as bad again in the NHL, let alone two on the same team. The Wild are going to pay for those deals dearly until the day they expire unless there are some amnesty buyouts allowed after the next CBA.

Watch this video for more insight on why these deals were done in the first place

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

If we're taking on Horton, while also eating 2+mil of Kreids' salary, I think I'd want a conditional first. In this scenario, we'd literally be giving them 9 million extra in cap space. That in and of itself is worth a first in my opinion.

I just think that’s what it would have to be to have this deal done now rather than in the summer from Toronto’s POV, a conditional second that becomes a first if Toronto makes it however far into the playoffs works too though

 

[LaffyTaffy]

I just think that’s what it would have to be to have this deal done now rather than in the summer from Toronto’s POV, a conditional second that becomes a first if Toronto makes it however far into the playoffs works too though

We could do the same condition that we did with Tampa

 

[TheTakedown]

Donato hasn't been good this year. Not broken up about that one.

Boston's prospects have seemingly all had a down year though.

Was gunna say, I checked his stats....

They are trash... 22 years old, 12 minutes a game, 9 points in 34 games?

This is the same as as paying Lias Andersson for Charlie Coyle, who is a 40 point RW at this point....

Why are people so bent?

 

[RGY]

Why do you get so hostile lol.

I actually complimented your optimism yesterday. And for the record, I enjoy people who give me different perspectives. I prefer not to live in an echo chamber. You're the one who continuously attacks people who want to tank as if they're not real fans.

Instead of responding I'll just let you get the last point/word with the points you made here. Seems you can't have a decent discussion that doesn't align with your vision of signing every top FA, like we've been doing for the past 20 years.

Hostile? What is hostile about what I wrote? I think its pretty calming. And who have I attacked about tanking? Disagreeing is attacking? I have no problem with someone taking that position. Doesn’t matter to me. But I am not going to be force fed that tanking is the ONLY way. It isn’t. Not going to be told a story about how one fan lived through the “dark ages” when I did as well. I know what happened back then, and the two situations are just not the same. They aren’t. Gorton has already done 100x more than what Neil Smith and Glen Sather did back then.

You are comparing signing Panarin and EK to who? Val Kamensky? Bobby Holik? Even Brad Richards? I mean cmon that is just unreasonable. Not even close to a justified argument for your sake. These are elite players. If you want to disagree with signing them that is perfectly fine. That is your opinion. But dont draw inaccurate comparions and try to prove them as fact to me. Its not the same, sorry. We signed those veteran players, overpaying for them, while have no farm system as a backbone. It was all or nothing with those guys. The situation is different. We are building a very strong system. We would be adding elite talent to young prospects who do have promise.

Dont tell me you enjoy different perspectives in one breathe, and then in the next completely ripping the slightest thought of that different perspective/path. Again spare me your backhanded compliment.

And btw it is just as unrealistic or even debatable to go offer sheet a Marner or Laine as you suggest. You are going to fork over multiple 1st round picks? Why? Doesn’t that hurt the true tank/rebuild philosophy just as much? But I wont sit here and say it an outrageous idea.

 

[Lion Hound]

If Kreider wasn't a Ranger and was going to be an upcoming FA (say this or next year) would anyone really argue that the team should sign him? It's the same argument that people make against Panarin/Stone/Karlsson except that he's already on the team. Going to be 29 when he signs...back years could look bad...team is in a rebuild etc. So as much as I like him as a player if you're not for signing Panarin/Stone/Karlsson I can not possibly understand why you would not want to trade Kreider.

If he was on another club, i would want them to be all over him via free agency for the reasons below...

1) He is going to command less of a contract then the aforementioned.
2) He would add a physical presence to a club that has zero physical presence in it's top 6. (If he wasn't here the top 2 lines are as soft as butter)
3) He would instantly be the best skater of the NYR forward group, and while he maybe lacks the skillset of the other Forwards mentioned, he has them both as a pure skater.

But, he is here already, and the club knows what they have with him. He wants to be here. He is core. If they can ink him on the same contract they supposedly offered Hayes, he is an excellent linemate to whatever top line the NYR's employ. Whether he plays with Hayes, or Zbanejad.

No one here is untradeable. That includes #20 and I am one of his biggest supporters. It all depends on that return. If we talking Nylander, that's like an amplified version of the Brassard/Zbad deal. I dont think anyone here would be too upset if that was the case. If were talking Cale Makar as a base, i don't think anyone would be too upset as that either. If were talking Timo Meier, that's a move again to get younger so the core ages collectively. There's alot of potential deals out there for #20. But all of which would need to be significant to entertain.

If he was going for a Stepan like deal in this draft and the pick was in the 7-10 range i'd be pretty pissed off.

 

[duhmetreE]

We don't need to trade Kreider. With Matthews, Marner, Tavares and Kapanen, there's no room for Nylander unless he moves to LW.

I can't see how Toronto can beat TB. They need to improve;; but a Kreider Matthews Marner line would be a tier higher than KZZ... would be disgusting.

So, if Toronto wants that.. it'll cost them. If they want to stack up to TB, it'll cost them.

Kreider @ 50% and Shattenkirk @ 50% for Nylander, Liljegren, Horton and a 1st

even then, I'm wary of trading Kreider. We saw what happened to the team when he got hurt last year. He drives the team and is not given enough credit. What happens to Zib?

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Was gunna say, I checked his stats....

They are trash... 22 years old, 12 minutes a game, 9 points in 34 games?

This is the same as as paying Lias Andersson for Charlie Coyle, who is a 40 point RW at this point....

Why are people so bent?

Who are you talking about?