Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIV

[Ghost of jas]

These insiders are wrong about Kreider. They need more activity and splashy trades to talk about. That’s all they care about. Every TDL recently they talk it up going into it and then act surprised that there was so little action. Kind of like your assessment of Brooks’ takes on bringing FAs, resigning own...

I don’t doubt Gorton is listening on Kreider. I just have doubts someone is going to meet his demands. And, as @bobbop states elsewhere, signing him to a 6-year deal with a $7 million per AAV is not going to impede the rebuild.

 

[Inferno]

I'm a bunch of pages behind reading ppla thoughts on pionk and howden etc.

One thing that strikes me is that what for us thru the dark ages wasn't just Henrik and jagr...it was also guys like ortmeyer, Betts, ward, Moore, sjoatrom...and to an extent hollweg.

Guys who were different degrees of crap in terms of hockey skills...but who worked hard, competed, generally tries to make the right and safe play....this kinda permeated throughout the roster and changed the culture of this team slowly but surely. Where guys who used to be lazy came to play night in and night out...guys like anisomov and dubinsky come to mind.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I don’t doubt Gorton is listening on Kreider. I just have doubts someone is going to meet his demands. And, as @bobbop states elsewhere, signing him to a 6-year deal with a $7 million per AAV is not going to impede the rebuild.

GMs aren't doing their job if they're unwilling to even talk about the "untouchables" on their roster.

No player is truly untouchable. It's just that moving Kreider make no sense unless it's truly going to make the team better in the long run. Kreider is young enough to be a major contributor when this team is ready to compete again. You don't trade players like that without a very good package coming back. A chance at a player that could be as good as Kreider one day isn't enough, which means late first rounders and B prospects are pointless. You need either a young roster player that has a pretty good chance of eventually becoming as good or better than Kreider, or multiple blue-chip prospects, plus a sweetener, as an incentive to actually do the trade.

I think Nashville is a very intriguing option that was brought up. Tolvanen and Fabbro fit with what I'd be looking for if I was GM of the team. Nashville fans probably balk at giving up both of them, but that's the kind of quality I'd be looking for to move a guy like Kreider. If I'm not getting both of those guys, something else that's damn good needs to be in the package, because, while those players are absolutely blue-chip prospects, they're far from certain, and probably unlikely to become what Kreider is right now, and will be for the next few years.

 

[NYR Viper]

I don't think they would give up 2 1sts.

Is that your minimum that you'd be happy with, like "okay, good trade"

No that would be what I would start with. Perhaps the COL 1st '20 would be conditional based on playoff success

 

[NYR Viper]

I'm slightly confused. Why does a rebuilding team want to pay Kreider who will be 28 when his contract expires on a 7 year deal that will most likely be in excess of $7m per season when the same reasoning is being used for not signing a 27 year old Panarin who is the obvious better player? Panarin will be a year younger when he hits UFA than Kreider will be but we are all signed up for not trading Kreider and re-signing him and watching him play until he is 35?

 

[BroadwayBlues]

GMs aren't doing their job if they're unwilling to even talk about the "untouchables" on their roster.

No player is truly untouchable. It's just that moving Kreider make no sense unless it's truly going to make the team better in the long run. Kreider is young enough to be a major contributor when this team is ready to compete again. You don't trade players like that without a very good package coming back. A chance at a player that could be as good as Kreider one day isn't enough, which means late first rounders and B prospects are pointless. You need either a young roster player that has a pretty good chance of eventually becoming as good or better than Kreider, or multiple blue-chip prospects, plus a sweetener, as an incentive to actually do the trade.

I think Nashville is a very intriguing option that was brought up. Tolvanen and Fabbro fit with what I'd be looking for if I was GM of the team. Nashville fans probably balk at giving up both of them, but that's the kind of quality I'd be looking for to move a guy like Kreider. If I'm not getting both of those guys, something else that's damn good needs to be in the package, because, while those players are absolutely blue-chip prospects, they're far from certain, and probably unlikely to become what Kreider is right now, and will be for the next few years.

When do you think they will be able to compete again?

He will be 29 when he gets his new contract. 30+ is not "young".

 

[Machinehead]

I'm slightly confused. Why does a rebuilding team want to pay Kreider who will be 28 when his contract expires on a 7 year deal that will most likely be in excess of $7m per season when the same reasoning is being used for not signing a 27 year old Panarin who is the obvious better player? Panarin will be a year younger when he hits UFA than Kreider will be but we are all signed up for not trading Kreider and re-signing him and watching him play until he is 35?

Panarin will make significantly more money.

 

[NYR Viper]

Panarin will make significantly more money.

But isn't he a significantly better player?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

These insiders are wrong about Kreider. They need more activity and splashy trades to talk about. That’s all they care about. Every TDL recently they talk it up going into it and then act surprised that there was so little action. Kind of like your assessment of Brooks’ takes on bringing FAs, resigning own...

I don’t think they’re wrong. I think he’s for sure on the table for the right offer.

His value is very very high though #webster

Good luck meeting the asking price.

 

[Machinehead]

But isn't he a significantly better player?

Yes, but "just use the money to sign Panarin" doesn't really add up.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

As much as I would love for Kreids to get to play for his childhood team, I don't believe the Bruins have what I want. I want an absolute stud bluechip prospect in any Kreider deal, and the Bruins simply dont have that. I'm talking about players like Kaut, Necas, Vesalainen, Fox, Makar, Brannstrom, etc. I know some of those are stretches but this is a guy who is on pace for 30 goals, is a leader, a burner, and a workhorse with more than a year left on his deal... I expect a haul not much smaller than what Duchene got.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

On a non-Kreider related note, if Toronto offers a 2020 3rd round pick for Mcquaid do you do it if no other teams offer a 3rd rounder?

 

[kovazub94]

I don’t doubt Gorton is listening on Kreider. I just have doubts someone is going to meet his demands. And, as @bobbop states elsewhere, signing him to a 6-year deal with a $7 million per AAV is not going to impede the rebuild.

Without Kreider we should have Zibanejad (RB would trade him too), Chytil and Kravtsov in top 6. That's it. Maybe the Rangers lucked out and get Hughes or Kakko to step right in. Maybe they are counting on signing Panarin and or another high profile FA. Maybe Buchnevich figures out how to be consistently at the top of his game to warrant a top6 spot. The point is even there's a plan going forward without Kreider - the right approach at this point re. Kreider is wait and see.

 

[GAGLine]

I'm slightly confused. Why does a rebuilding team want to pay Kreider who will be 28 when his contract expires on a 7 year deal that will most likely be in excess of $7m per season when the same reasoning is being used for not signing a 27 year old Panarin who is the obvious better player? Panarin will be a year younger when he hits UFA than Kreider will be but we are all signed up for not trading Kreider and re-signing him and watching him play until he is 35?

There are two things you left out. Kreider has 1 year left on his deal while Panarin is UFA this summer. It's not much, but it's 1 year closer to us being competitive. If nothing else, it gives us more time to see what we have and make a decision on Kreider. The other thing is that Panarin will likely cost at least 4 mil per year more than Kreider. That's a significant amount of money that can be used on another quality player down the road.

We have been avoiding the big UFA contracts, but there will come a time when we want to sign players like that again. Ideally, we would already have a good team and supplement it through free agency, rather than trying to build the team around free agent acquisitions like Panarin. Kreider is less of a gamble because we know what he can do for us and he will cost significantly less. That's not to say that we should sign either one. All I'm saying is that isn't isn't the slam dunk in favor of Panarin that you seem to think it is. Besides that, and which I have mentioned before, why is Panarin signing here after we trade away Hayes, Zucc and Kreider? If he has any desire to win a cup, he isn't going to sign with a team that just traded 3 of it's best offensive players and is in the middle of a rebuild.

 

[Crease]

Ideal scenario for me would be Rangers trade Hayes and Zuccarello for futures, and Hayes resigns with the Rangers on July 1. I think Hayes has some good years ahead of him and I'm not worried about cap value in his later years because if the rebuild goes according to plan the Rangers heavy lifters will be on cheap ELCs. Returning home after a trade doesn't happen often though. Notable examples are Keith Tkachuk (2007), Matt Moulson (2014), and more recently Antoine Vermette (2015).

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

There are two things you left out. Kreider has 1 year left on his deal while Panarin is UFA this summer. It's not much, but it's 1 year closer to us being competitive. If nothing else, it gives us more time to see what we have and make a decision on Kreider. The other thing is that Panarin will likely cost at least 4 mil per year more than Kreider. That's a significant amount of money that can be used on another quality player down the road.

We have been avoiding the big UFA contracts, but there will come a time when we want to sign players like that again. Ideally, we would already have a good team and supplement it through free agency, rather than trying to build the team around free agent acquisitions like Panarin. Kreider is less of a gamble because we know what he can do for us and he will cost significantly less. That's not to say that we should sign either one. All I'm saying is that isn't isn't the slam dunk in favor of Panarin that you seem to think it is. Besides that, and which I have mentioned before, why is Panarin signing here after we trade away Hayes, Zucc and Kreider? If he has any desire to win a cup, he isn't going to sign with a team that just traded 3 of it's best offensive players and is in the middle of a rebuild.

The bolded is the right question. And one I'm yet to see a good answer (or even an answer) for.

 

[RangerBoy]

Without Kreider we should have Zibanejad (RB would trade him too), Chytil and Kravtsov in top 6. That's it. Maybe the Rangers lucked out and get Hughes or Kakko to step right in. Maybe they are counting on signing Panarin and or another high profile FA. Maybe Buchnevich figures out how to be consistently at the top of his game to warrant a top6 spot. The point is even there's a plan going forward without Kreider - the right approach at this point re. Kreider is wait and see.

The Rangers are rebuilding. They shouldn't have any untouchables from their established NHL players.

The Rangers have nearly traded everyone. You make it sound like my thinking is some form of alternative facts.

Just look at what Gorton has already done & what he wants to do before the 25th.

 

[Zibanejbread]

Speaking of trading Kreider, you guys would hate what Johnson said about this proposal last night (starts at 4:35):

 

[NYR Viper]

Yes, but "just use the money to sign Panarin" doesn't really add up.

But if we are all afraid of signing Panarin based on his age, shouldn't we also be fearful of signing the less elite Kreider? By the same thought process, we should just pass and wait for a better opportunity for someone younger?

 

[NYR Viper]

On a non-Kreider related note, if Toronto offers a 2020 3rd round pick for Mcquaid do you do it if no other teams offer a 3rd rounder?

Yes. I'd be fine with pushing the picks out a year. If I'm Gorton, I want a 3rd + 4th for McQuaid

 

[MadHookUp]

Quick question... Can a team and a player/agent negotiate or talk about contracts before the Jan 1st of their UFA year? Like I know that Kreider can sign an extension after Jan 1st of next year, but are they allowed to even talk about today?

 

[NYR Viper]

There are two things you left out. Kreider has 1 year left on his deal while Panarin is UFA this summer. It's not much, but it's 1 year closer to us being competitive. If nothing else, it gives us more time to see what we have and make a decision on Kreider. The other thing is that Panarin will likely cost at least 4 mil per year more than Kreider. That's a significant amount of money that can be used on another quality player down the road.

We have been avoiding the big UFA contracts, but there will come a time when we want to sign players like that again. Ideally, we would already have a good team and supplement it through free agency, rather than trying to build the team around free agent acquisitions like Panarin. Kreider is less of a gamble because we know what he can do for us and he will cost significantly less. That's not to say that we should sign either one. All I'm saying is that isn't isn't the slam dunk in favor of Panarin that you seem to think it is. Besides that, and which I have mentioned before, why is Panarin signing here after we trade away Hayes, Zucc and Kreider? If he has any desire to win a cup, he isn't going to sign with a team that just traded 3 of it's best offensive players and is in the middle of a rebuild.

But wouldn't your first point also show that Kreider's contract will take him 1 year older and most likely one more year into his decline versus getting another year of Panarin's prime in his next contract?

I am not even trying to say go get Panarin in the off-season. All I am trying to show is that we can't have it both ways. If we are afraid of Panarin on a long term deal, a Kreider deal, who is a year old when his deal expires, should also instill fear

 

[Profet]

I'm a bunch of pages behind reading ppla thoughts on pionk and howden etc.

One thing that strikes me is that what for us thru the dark ages wasn't just Henrik and jagr...it was also guys like ortmeyer, Betts, ward, Moore, sjoatrom...and to an extent hollweg.

Guys who were different degrees of crap in terms of hockey skills...but who worked hard, competed, generally tries to make the right and safe play....this kinda permeated throughout the roster and changed the culture of this team slowly but surely. Where guys who used to be lazy came to play night in and night out...guys like anisomov and dubinsky come to mind.

Let's not forget Torts... Say what you will about him, but he demanded effort. I feel like many of our players would have been far worse under AV if they hadn't first been taught to work by Torts.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

The Rangers are rebuilding. They shouldn't have any untouchables from their established NHL players.

The Rangers have nearly traded everyone. You make it like my thinking is some form of alternative facts.

Just look at what Gorton has already done & what he wants to do before the 25th.

He’s traded pending UFAs, Miller who would have been a RFA and players who’s contacts (Stepan) he wanted to get rid of. Not the case with 20 & 93.

 

[RangerBoy]

I don’t doubt Gorton is listening on Kreider. I just have doubts someone is going to meet his demands. And, as @bobbop states elsewhere, signing him to a 6-year deal with a $7 million per AAV is not going to impede the rebuild.

McDonagh got 7 years and $6.75M AAV. It's about a $900K difference between tax implications in NY and FLA. 7 years and $7.5M would not have broken the Rangers salary cap. The Rangers traded McDonagh with one year remaining on his contract.

Kreider hasn't scored 30 goals in his career. What are Gorton's demands for a player who hasn't scored 30 goals in his career? You can say it will happen this season but he has 2 goals in his last 12 games. It better happen this season for him. He had 20 goals before New Year's Eve and with more than the 1/2 season remaining.