Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIV

[DutchShamrock]

As much as I would love for Kreids to get to play for his childhood team, I don't believe the Bruins have what I want. I want an absolute stud bluechip prospect in any Kreider deal, and the Bruins simply dont have that. I'm talking about players like Kaut, Necas, Vesalainen, Fox, Makar, Brannstrom, etc. I know some of those are stretches but this is a guy who is on pace for 30 goals, is a leader, a burner, and a workhorse with more than a year left on his deal... I expect a haul not much smaller than what Duchene got.

I make an effort to not have the home team bias and to view our guys as objectively as possible. So I'll put myself in their shoes and ask if that return is fair.

So to play devil's advocate, you think a 26 year old center, Matt Duchene, who had five 50+ point seasons by the time he was traded, one 70 point season, is a comparable trade for a 27, almost 28, year old wing who hit 50 once, and is one pace for his best year now, during an league-wide offensive explosion?

I like Chris, but for all his gifts, he hasn't put it all together and made the most of his tools. I respect the idea of holding firm to a high return and forcing them to wow you, but we have to be realistic about the player.

Asking for a Duchene return is essentially saying this guy carries the team. He scores at a 1st line rate and he brings it year in and year out. He is effective when he isn't scoring. Is that an honest assessment of Kreider or are we essentially clutching to a player in fear of him breaking out elsewhere?

This might be the point the organization needs to be honest about how Kreider has performed to this point and how his career projects. He won't be a point per game player, he won't take over games beyond a week or 2 stretch. Maybe it's just my opinion but I would settle for way less than Duchene and I respect anyone that disagrees. A 1st and a top prospect, or a young defenseman on a steady path to top pairing and I'm sold.

 

[True Blue]

But wouldn't his value then be lower than it would be at this years deadline? Similar situation to McDonagh last year

Possibly. But I think that his worth to the Rangers is greater than what he brings back. As such, I am not in a hurry to move him but very much want to resign him. I am not Gorton, nor do I play him on tv, but I think that may be his mentality. You cannot have a team of 20 year olds trying to slog through a rebuild by themselves, putting themselves into roles that they are probably not ready for. That is what ZBad and Kreider are for. Kreider is also the voice in the locker room that these kids will grow up listening to.

Yeah, I am sure that Gorton is taking all calls. He has to. There is a trade that has a return so good that he has no choice but to ship Kreider out. But I think that the better chance is that he makes all efforts to extend him this summer.

 

[NYR Viper]

The guy that makes A LOT of sense to move at this deadline is Vlad Namestnikov. The guy has proven in his career to be able to be a nice complimentary piece on a top-line while also being a prime PKer. He can play center when needed. Teams with one line like Edmonton, Colorado and Dallas who may be looking to supplement a couple of guys to be able to spread out some of their scoring would probably be interested. Retain salary if needed but removing his cap hit while returning a couple of assets would be a good move for this organization.

I can say similar things for Vesey although his cap hit is more manageable.

 

[Profet]

trading everyone with a contract and replacing them with draft picks and players on elc's sounds great. it isn't reality but it sounds good.

this weird obsession with vilifying guys like hayes and kreider and now even mika because they have the unmitigated gall to get older and play better and not win multiple cups- and then they want to get paid !! imagine that.

then we label them too expensive and not "elite" or "nothing more than a 2/3C" or "only 55 point player". blah blah blah. meanwhile, we draft bums and safe players and average goalies at 39OA we've developed exactly ZERO elite players in the past 10 years.

cant these guys just stop aging until we win ?

it took ovechkin 13 years to hoist his cup. 13 YEARS !!!!!

show me a team thats won a cup who's done the "sell everyone" thing ?

ill wait.

Boston, Pittsburgh...

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I make an effort to not have the home team bias and to view our guys as objectively as possible. So I'll put myself in their shoes and ask if that return is fair.

So to play devil's advocate, you think a 26 year old center, Matt Duchene, who had five 50+ point seasons by the time he was traded, one 70 point season, is a comparable trade for a 27, almost 28, year old wing who hit 50 once, and is one pace for his best year now, during an league-wide offensive explosion?

I like Chris, but for all his gifts, he hasn't put it all together and made the most of his tools. I respect the idea of holding firm to a high return and forcing them to wow you, but we have to be realistic about the player.

Asking for a Duchene return is essentially saying this guy carries the team. He scores at a 1st line rate and he brings it year in and year out. He is effective when he isn't scoring. Is that an honest assessment of Kreider or are we essentially clutching to a player in fear of him breaking out elsewhere?

This might be the point the organization needs to be honest about how Kreider has performed to this point and how his career projects. He won't be a point per game player, he won't take over games beyond a week or 2 stretch. Maybe it's just my opinion but I would settle for way less than Duchene and I respect anyone that disagrees. A 1st and a top prospect, or a young defenseman on a steady path to top pairing and I'm sold.

Duchene was coming off of a terrible season, wanted out and was rumored to be on his way out forever.

Colorado had no leverage. The trade only looks as lopsided as it does because of how Ottawa completely fell apart after it.

Kreiders a different cat. This “he never put it together” stuff is nonsense, he’s going to break 30 goals this year barring injury, this is pretty much the top end of what people thought he’d be realistically. 1st and a prospect isn’t nearly enough, like not even close unless we’re talking a top 5 prospect in the game. Then it’s close

 

[NYR Viper]

I'm listening to 'Leafs Lunch' and Pierre brought up an interesting take. He said he didn't understand the Bruins sending Donato and Forsbaka-Karlsson down to the AHL while recalling Trent Frederic. He mentioned those first two are guys that can grow together and who they think highly of. He also mentioned that with the deadline coming up, he would not be surprised if they were showcasing a guy like Frederic for a possible move for a scoring winger. The Rangers were rumored to really like Frederic last year when they were discussing Nash and McDonagh. The Rangers were at the game in which Frederic was called up. That was the game where Drury and Maxwell along with 1 other scout were in attendance against the Jets.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Boston, Pittsburgh...

check your memory.

when you have a generational player to build around things are very different.

boston ?? really

 

[Edge]

trading everyone with a contract and replacing them with draft picks and players on elc's sounds great. it isn't reality but it sounds good.

this weird obsession with vilifying guys like hayes and kreider and now even mika because they have the unmitigated gall to get older and play better and not win multiple cups- and then they want to get paid !! imagine that.

then we label them too expensive and not "elite" or "nothing more than a 2/3C" or "only 55 point player". blah blah blah. meanwhile, we draft bums and safe players and average goalies at 39OA we've developed exactly ZERO elite players in the past 10 years.

cant these guys just stop aging until we win ?

it took ovechkin 13 years to hoist his cup. 13 YEARS !!!!!

show me a team thats won a cup who's done the "sell everyone" thing ?

ill wait.

I get what you're saying, and don't totally disagree with it.

But your line third from the bottom, kind of answers your line second from the bottom, which means you won't have to spend much doing what you wrote at the bottom.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Yep thats it. I dont care about the team’s future because i dont think they should or will trade one piece out of how many? So that they can have a future that doesnt resemble one of the Oilers and Coyotes efforts?

Trade everyone, ice a team of kids. Lets see how that works out...lets see how it works out for their development when they are getting ***** slapped every night. When they have to log every minutes against established NHL players in the league who stifle them and their creativity repeatedly, mentally exhausting them, and stunting their development.

Got news for you. This team is already getting bitch-slapped quite regularly with Kreider. You feel so strongly about the "veteran leader" aspect? Let's go sign an over the hill guy on a cheap contract as a mentor. Ill take the bushel of assets that Kreider would command and avoid having to pay him a king's ransom in 16 months

 

[kovazub94]

Didn't he trade Brassard with three seasons left and 90% of this board had a meltdown?

McDonagh had one year remaining on his contract just like Kreider.

Miller was one year away from group III. Good bye.

20 & 93 are the new Kane and Toews.

There are differences in McDonagh and Miller situations that you don't mention that make them incomparable to Kreider.

But turning to your first point - please give me names of what would be an equivalent of a return we got for Brassard in Zibanejad? I'd be interested to see this list of 22-year olds producing similarly to Kreider already in a top-6 role because this is what we got for Brassard (forget the 2nd rounder for the cash benefit). I will wait.

Finally, another point you dont mention is that at the time the Brassard trade (a part of rebuild on the fly) did not make the team take a step back. Brassard wasn't traded for picks. If you use it as comparable then the return for Kreider should do the same as soon as next season. That much was a sure thing and the Rangers banked on the potential that Zibanejad would get better.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

There are differences in McDonagh and Miller situations that you don't mention that make them incomparable to Kreider.

But turning to your first point - please give me names of what would be an equivalent of a return we got for Brassard in Zibanejad? I'd be interested to see this list of 22-year olds producing similarly to Kreider already in a top-6 role because this is what we got for Brassard (forget the 2nd rounder for the cash benefit). I will wait.

Finally, another point you dont mention is that at the time the Brassard trade (a part of rebuild on the fly) did not make the team take a step back. Brassard wasn't traded for picks. If you use it as comparable then the return for Kreider should do the same as soon as next season. That much was a sure thing and the Rangers banked on the potential that Zibanejad would get better.

Kevin Fiala

/thread

 

[offdacrossbar]

Got news for you. This team is already getting *****-slapped quite regularly with Kreider. You feel so strongly about the "veteran leader" aspect? Let's go sign an over the hill guy on a cheap contract as a mentor. Ill take the bushel of assets that Kreider would command and avoid having to pay him a king's ransom in 16 months

this team cant compare talent wise to most of the better teams in the league. we have no shooters and our defense is a bunch of 2/3 pair guys.

that doesnt mean we are without talent.

our defense is a tire fire because quinn plays pionk and staal 25 mins per game while shatty and ADA sit during the PP. brendan smith is a 3rd pair guy. our best defender most nights is freddy claesson.

mcquaid plays because he has "good intentions" and mcleod plays more than buch many nights.

quinn roles out plugs with buchnevich and gives him 8 mins of ice and wonders why his intentions arent great.

meanwhile hes got fast in a top 6 role and plays howden every game.

not buying it.

 

[GAGLine]

But wouldn't your first point also show that Kreider's contract will take him 1 year older and most likely one more year into his decline versus getting another year of Panarin's prime in his next contract?

I am not even trying to say go get Panarin in the off-season. All I am trying to show is that we can't have it both ways. If we are afraid of Panarin on a long term deal, a Kreider deal, who is a year old when his deal expires, should also instill fear

There is a risk with both players, but Panarin will be a much larger investment, and therefore more of a risk.

Signing Panarin also comes with certain expectations. If you sign the best free agent forward to a huge contract, you aren't doing that to rebuild. You're doing that to compete. There will be pressure to compete sooner rather than later, which will be a monumentally difficult task given that we would no longer have Zucc, Hayes or Kreider and our defense would still suck. Do we start trading futures away? Do we sign even more UFAs in an effort to compete while Panarin is in his prime? Or will Panarin have patience while we wait for the kids to develop?

Regarding Kreider, re-signing him wouldn't come with the same expectations. It would just be status quo. Again, I'm not saying we should re-sign him, just that it doesn't come with the same level of risk or expectations.

This whole thing is just fantasy anyway. As I've asked a couple times now, why would Panarin sign with us after we traded most of our best players for futures?

There will be other Panarins. We don't need to sign this one just because he's available now. Whether or not we re-sign Kreider is immaterial. We need to have the patience to let the kids develop before we start throwing money around.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

this team cant compare talent wise to most of the better teams in the league. we have no shooters and our defense is a bunch of 2/3 pair guys.

that doesnt mean we are without talent.

our defense is a tire fire because quinn plays pionk and staal 25 mins per game while shatty and ADA sit during the PP. brendan smith is a 3rd pair guy. our best defender most nights is freddy claesson.

mcquaid plays because he has "good intentions" and mcleod plays more than buch many nights.

quinn roles out plugs with buchnevich and gives him 8 mins of ice and wonders why his intentions arent great.

meanwhile hes got fast in a top 6 role and plays howden every game.

not buying it.

So we're back to this team being full of unlocked potential that is being stifled by the coach again? Great. This is an argument that has gotten progressively worse since 2016 and quite frankly I cannot believe some folks still have the gall to make it.

 

[Edge]

I have little or no interest in trading Zibanejad and Kreider unless I am completely blown away by the offer.

I don't know if we'd get a return that makes particular sense, and I think they're young enough to work with the talent we will have emerging over the next several years.

 

[kovazub94]

The guy that makes A LOT of sense to move at this deadline is Vlad Namestnikov. The guy has proven in his career to be able to be a nice complimentary piece on a top-line while also being a prime PKer. He can play center when needed. Teams with one line like Edmonton, Colorado and Dallas who may be looking to supplement a couple of guys to be able to spread out some of their scoring would probably be interested. Retain salary if needed but removing his cap hit while returning a couple of assets would be a good move for this organization.

I can say similar things for Vesey although his cap hit is more manageable.

Namestnikov is a type of guy who could bring a surprising (but it shouldn't be) 1st rounder at TDL especially if the Rangers eat a part of his cap.

 

[Profet]

check your memory.

when you have a generational player to build around things are very different.

boston ?? really

I'm talking about selling in order to get both Malkin and Fluery. They lucked into Crosby.

In fact, the Rangers were part of that, reacquiring Kovalev.

And yes... Boston...

Remember Kessel?

 

[mulli25]

I have little or no interest in trading Zibanejad and Kreider unless I am completely blown away by the offer.

I don't know if we'd get a return that makes particular sense, and I think they're young enough to work with the talent we will have emerging over the next several years.

my exact thoughts

I'm expecting their "contribution/contract ratio" to be much more favorable in a few years than Hayes.

 

[Machinehead]

But if we are all afraid of signing Panarin based on his age, shouldn't we also be fearful of signing the less elite Kreider? By the same thought process, we should just pass and wait for a better opportunity for someone younger?

That's a fair point.

I think it's less age, and more so our history with marquee names.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I have little or no interest in trading Zibanejad and Kreider unless I am completely blown away by the offer.

I don't know if we'd get a return that makes particular sense, and I think they're young enough to work with the talent we will have emerging over the next several years.

I generally agree, but I hope the team is shopping Kreider aggressively to see if such an offer exists. I think Zibanejad's best days are ahead of him so he should be a lynchpin moving forward.

We are approaching the point where the quantity vs. quality argument and how it effects this rebuild will become a focal point. Is the Ranger's philosophy right now to secure as many assets as possible by jettisoning expiring contracts and hoping to get lucky with a player or two? Or is it coming time where they need to make a real splash for young player that will become a centerpiece moving forward? Either way, I dont think Kreider nets that type of player/high draft pick, nor do I know how the Rangers are going to get it.

But if the status quo remains, I have this sneaking suspicion that the Rangers will build up a solid core of depth like they did approx. a decade ago, and will still be searching for that game-breaker go to guy. I guess what Im saying is Im ready and willing to see the team get desperate if it improves the changes of getting a young cornerstone player that the team can build around.

 

[RGY]

Got news for you. This team is already getting *****-slapped quite regularly with Kreider. You feel so strongly about the "veteran leader" aspect? Let's go sign an over the hill guy on a cheap contract as a mentor. Ill take the bushel of assets that Kreider would command and avoid having to pay him a king's ransom in 16 months

You think this is bad...just wait until you remove every established NHL player of quality from the team.

My case has nothing to do with leadership although Kreider does offer that aspect.

Kreider is worth more to us than to other teams. Other teams are not going to pay the kings ransom we should require for him. And thus he will stay. And he will get a new contract and he will survive that contract while being successful with the new core that develops and comes along to compete.

 

[NYR Viper]

That's a fair point.

I think it's less age, and more so our history with marquee names.

This I 100% agree with. The recency bias I believe it's called (c'mon stats nerds, correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

I'm listening to 'Leafs Lunch' and Pierre brought up an interesting take. He said he didn't understand the Bruins sending Donato and Forsbaka-Karlsson down to the AHL while recalling Trent Frederic. He mentioned those first two are guys that can grow together and who they think highly of. He also mentioned that with the deadline coming up, he would not be surprised if they were showcasing a guy like Frederic for a possible move for a scoring winger. The Rangers were rumored to really like Frederic last year when they were discussing Nash and McDonagh. The Rangers were at the game in which Frederic was called up. That was the game where Drury and Maxwell along with 1 other scout were in attendance against the Jets.

That is a very excellent post, totally agree. Don’t sleep on that idea.

 

[GAGLine]

Namestnikov is a type of guy who could bring a surprising (but it shouldn't be) 1st rounder at TDL especially if the Rangers eat a part of his cap.

There's no chance that Names returns a 1st rounder. I'd be thrilled with a 2nd rounder though.

 

[Profet]

But if we are all afraid of signing Panarin based on his age, shouldn't we also be fearful of signing the less elite Kreider? By the same thought process, we should just pass and wait for a better opportunity for someone younger?

For me its less age... more talent at the absolute wrong time. It's too early in the rebuild to acquire a player of that talent. We still have yet to find our centerpiece. Until we have a calder candidate type player, I'm all about the tank. There is simply no reason to get better, until we draft someone with that kind of ceiling. Some say Kravtsov is that player... we'll see. I'm a Ranger fan... so i'm skeptical.

I would like to see this team draft top three at least once before acquiring talent that prevents that from happening.