Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIV

[GoAwayPanarin]

It's not just about leadership, it's about insulating the kids. We need some good veterans so that the kids don't have to fill positions for which they aren't ready.

I get this and agree with it...

But just for arguments sake, it isn't hard to sign stop gaps.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I do not have any issue with them trying to instill a competitive nature, or trying to mold devloping prospects toward that, my statement was more in line with what is going to happen should that not take effect with whichever particular talented player?

To me it's not about them scratching him, it's going to be the choice beyond that should he not respond in a manner they like.

If it does come to that point, the choice will likely be, keep the talented guy and live with whatever, or trade him for a lesser talented player who fits whatever they are looking for more, likely a harder working player.

Which is why my original statement said, All this ideal compete level stuff sounds nice until the roster is comprised of lesser talents who work hard.

Once they implement a compete level threshold and start to make roster moves due to it, it's very possible that leads to choices between that and a talent level threshold. If they can not find enough players that meet both thresholds compromises have to be made.

There is always option C, trade him for an equal player. A change of scenery deal. They happen all the time. Galchenyuk for Domi was a prime example.

Maybe I just find it hard to believe that Gorton is going to trade Buchnevich for a 3rd/4th line plug just because that guy has work ethic. I could be wrong and believe me, if that does happen I will beyond pissed. I just have a hard time believing it.

 

[E-Train]

Artemi Panarin @ $9.5m

The problem is that Panarin’s looking for $12.5M AAV over 7 years.

 

[NYR Viper]

The problem is that Panarin’s looking for $12.5M AAV over 7 years.

Perhaps. If that is the case, someone like Kreider is making well in excess of $7m on a long term deal too.

 

[GAGLine]

Eh, there are other ways to insulate the kids. Artemi Panarin and Chris Kreider are the SAME AGE. People are fearful of giving a legitimately elite winger in Panarin a 7 year deal. Let's assume Kreider will be looking for 7 years (as he should be).

Panarin reaches UFA at 27 years old. So his next contract will take him to 34.
Let's assume that next contract is 7 years x $9.5m

Kreider reaches UFA at 28 years old. So his next contract will take him to 35.
Let's assume that next contract is 7 years x $7m per season

Would anyone consider trading Kreider and then signing Panarin? The insulation factor is still there for the 'kids'. Panarin's long term deal expires a year earlier than Kreider's. They both play the same position.

To COL:
Chris Kreider

To NYR:
COL 1st '19 + COL 1st '20 + Shane Bowers + Tyson Jost

So the net gain is:

Col 1st '19 + COl 1st '20 + Shane Bowers + Tyson Jost + Artemi Panarin @ $9.5m (contract runs out at age 34) for Chris Kreider @ $7m (contract runs out at 35)

My post wasn't meant to suggest that we should re-sign Kreider or that he couldn't be replaced by someone like Panarin, simply that we need to have some good veteran players, whoever they may be.

That said, why would Panarin sign with us? I know the rumors about him wanting to play in a big city and NY having a large Russian community and all that, but I'm also pretty sure he'll want to win. If we are trading Hayes, Zucc and Kreider for futures, why would Panarin want to sign with us? Just so he can wait around while we try to build a team around him? He may only be 27 now, but I doubt we'll be able to sell him on the idea that we'll be able to compete for a cup when he's 30/31.

I really don't think Panarin will be a Ranger, whether that's because Gorton doesn't offer him a contract, or because Panarin chooses to sign elsewhere.

 

[E-Train]

Perhaps. If that is the case, someone like Kreider is making well in excess of $7m on a long term deal too.

Not necessarily. In Kreider’s case, van Riemsdyk is a good comp. Don’t think he’ll get much more than $7M AAV on the open market.

 

[NYR Viper]

Not necessarily. In Kreider’s case, van Riemsdyk is a good comp. Don’t think he’ll get much more than $7M AAV on the open market.

JVR is not a good 5v5 player. Kreider is. I really don't see JVR as a good comparable. If anything, they will look at Evander Kane's contract and say, Chris is a better player than Evander, pay him more.

 

[True Blue]

Keep Zibby, but why do you need your most talented players to be your leaders?

No one said that. But that is what has happened in this case. Krieder has emerged as a voice in the locker room and a leader of this team.

 

[NYR Viper]

My post wasn't meant to suggest that we should re-sign Kreider or that he couldn't be replaced by someone like Panarin, simply that we need to have some good veteran players, whoever they may be.

That said, why would Panarin sign with us? I know the rumors about him wanting to play in a big city and NY having a large Russian community and all that, but I'm also pretty sure he'll want to win. If we are trading Hayes, Zucc and Kreider for futures, why would Panarin want to sign with us? Just so he can wait around while we try to build a team around him? He may only be 27 now, but I doubt we'll be able to sell him on the idea that we'll be able to compete for a cup when he's 30/31.

I really don't think Panarin will be a Ranger, whether that's because Gorton doesn't offer him a contract, or because Panarin chooses to sign elsewhere.

Should Gorton choose, and dependent on his moves at this deadline, the Rangers very well may begin to upswing next year. They would need to have a few pieces fall into place but he could conceivably have the cap space to make some changes in the off-season.

I'm not saying I want him to throw around money but if they can find a way to trade Smith and Shattenkirk and they move out Krieder/Zuccarello/Hayes at this deadline they should have A LOT of cap space.

I also get the sense that Namestnikov may be traded at the deadline in which case there is another $4m in cap space.

 

[True Blue]

Who said the best deal isn't available now? Whos to say if the best deal will be available at the deadline?

No one. But I would wager that Gorton has a pretty good idea of what is and isn't out there.

 

[True Blue]

In so saying, if I were the Rangers I would definitely be listening to offers.

Of course they should be. Like I said, no one is untradeable. And if you are the Rangers, if there is the "Godfather" offer that you cannot refuse, then you make the deal. Otherwise, you try to extend him during the summer. If he refuses, then you can trade him.

 

[E-Train]

JVR is not a good 5v5 player. Kreider is. I really don't see JVR as a good comparable. If anything, they will look at Evander Kane's contract and say, Chris is a better player than Evander, pay him more.

We’ll see. JVR signed that deal coming off a 36 goal season. Kreider should finally break 30 this year.

 

[NYR Viper]

Of course they should be. Like I said, no one is untradeable. And if you are the Rangers, if there is the "Godfather" offer that you cannot refuse, then you make the deal. Otherwise, you try to extend him during the summer. If he refuses, then you can trade him.

But wouldn't his value then be lower than it would be at this years deadline? Similar situation to McDonagh last year

 

[bl02]

Read on a penguins site that they are in need of a winger and Ferland and Zucc are two possibilities. a second and 4th for zucc was suggested. Would still like to somehow grab a first or at least similar to what Grabner got us but maybe thats the market for wingers right now?? Could be a lot of possible wingers being shopped right now. I would rather not help the Pens for that meager of a return but I guess Gorton might have to.

 

[bl02]

Hope I'm wrong but if the trade market is really flooded with guys like Stone, Duchene, Ferland, Panarin etc i think the value of trading Hayes/Zucc might be gained more in pushing us up higher into hopefully a top 5 pick rather then what they will actually return in assets.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Hope I'm wrong but if the trade market is really flooded with guys like Stone, Duchene, Ferland, Panarin etc i think the value of trading Hayes/Zucc might be gained more in pushing us up higher into hopefully a top 5 pick rather then what they will actually return in assets.

They'll do fine with Hayes.

Zucc's value is in that he is going to come cheaper than the others.

 

[NYR Viper]

Hope I'm wrong but if the trade market is really flooded with guys like Stone, Duchene, Ferland, Panarin etc i think the value of trading Hayes/Zucc might be gained more in pushing us up higher into hopefully a top 5 pick rather then what they will actually return in assets.

Who is really available:
Simmonds
Zuccarello
Hayes
Dzingel
Duchene (maybe)
Stone (maybe)
Panarin (maybe)
Nyquist
Burakovsky (not a rental)
Carter (maybe)
Ferland (I think Carolina would prefer to re-sign him)
Boyle (would they actually move him or just try to re-sign him?)
Johansson

This assumes guys like Kreider aren't actually moved with term left on their deals.

I don't think Carter moves at the deadline.

I REALLY don't think Columbus trades Panarin.

I REALLY think at least one of Stone/Duchene re-sign in Ottawa.

 

[McRanger]

Good points. And I hate to play a card like this, but anyone who doesn't understand a wider impact being at play here hasn't played team sports. While much tougher to quantify, the atmosphere that a player with attitude problems who isn't willing to put in the work creates across the team is toxic, no matter how talented he is. What kind of message does it send to, say, a player like Chytil who is trying to become a more complete player if a teammate like Buchnevich waltzes into the top 6 every night while loafing it in practice, etc?

I've never found "attitude problems" and "questionable work ethic" to be in any real way directly related. Sometimes they are, certainly. But there are also toxic hard workers and well loved schleps and everything in between. I also question how much the latter really affects anything in the locker room since how a fan or a coach views a player is not always consistent with how his fellow teammates view him.

For example we as fans, and Colin Campbell and Mike Keenan as coaches, might have wanted to strangle Kovalev for his floating and disappearing. But the guys he played with, especially Messier and Graves, loved him and loved playing with him. Scratching him in favor of a significantly less effective but harder working player would probably not have had a positive effect in the locker room or on the ice.

So I am not really sure how Buch playing or being scratched will affect the team off the ice. There seems to be a lot of credence given to the guesswork that Buchnevich playing will somehow hurt the younger players, without any real indication that's the truth. Honestly I think the other side of that coin, that maybe benching Buch could have an adverse on both rookies and veterans because (despite rebuilding) they still care about scoring goals and winning games due to it directly affecting their paycheck, is just as likely.

Personally I think neither of the above situations are likely because the effect these kinds of things have on the locker room how other players behave is absurdly overstated. But who knows.

In the end I just want them to make decisions that work towards improving the team on the ice, and for that to be the overriding priority, always. If that means waiving Buch tomorrow, do it. But if that means playing Buch, even if its only so they can increase his value in a trade (he certainly wouldn't be the first underwhelming player showcased) then do that. Just make sure the teams priorities, and managing assets should always be higher than managing sensibilities, are where they need to be.


(apologies in advance, I started this reply about 6 hours ago at work and have not checked how this conversation has progressed, so if you have already had this discussion, sorry)

 

[offdacrossbar]

My post wasn't meant to suggest that we should re-sign Kreider or that he couldn't be replaced by someone like Panarin, simply that we need to have some good veteran players, whoever they may be.

That said, why would Panarin sign with us? I know the rumors about him wanting to play in a big city and NY having a large Russian community and all that, but I'm also pretty sure he'll want to win. If we are trading Hayes, Zucc and Kreider for futures, why would Panarin want to sign with us? Just so he can wait around while we try to build a team around him? He may only be 27 now, but I doubt we'll be able to sell him on the idea that we'll be able to compete for a cup when he's 30/31.

I really don't think Panarin will be a Ranger, whether that's because Gorton doesn't offer him a contract, or because Panarin chooses to sign elsewhere.

why would artemi panarin want to come anywhere near this team now ?

i mean really.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

why would artemi panarin want to come anywhere near this team now ?

i mean really.

Because bright lights of broadway, and original six, and tradition, and NYR life style......

Its totally not because we can back up the brinks truck unlike any other team

 

[Cheapshot]

I REALLY think at least one of Stone/Duchene re-sign in Ottawa.

I think stone re-signs and duchene walks. Don’t think duchene ever had the intentions of staying there. Think that will be stones team for a while. But who knows I could be completely wrong.

 

[Thirty One]

Not necessarily. In Kreider’s case, van Riemsdyk is a good comp. Don’t think he’ll get much more than $7M AAV on the open market.

And who is Panarin's comp to get $12.5M?

 

[Thirty One]

why would artemi panarin want to come anywhere near this team now ?

i mean really.

Many believe he's looking more for a city than a team.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I think Wayne Simmonds will get more than Hayes...

Simmonds has the better history and is on a down year but is known as a top 6 winger and net front guy on the PP

Hayes is just blowing up this year and is known as a 3C

 

[haveandare]

Who is really available:
Simmonds
Zuccarello
Hayes
Dzingel
Duchene (maybe)
Stone (maybe)
Panarin (maybe)
Nyquist
Burakovsky (not a rental)
Carter (maybe)
Ferland (I think Carolina would prefer to re-sign him)
Boyle (would they actually move him or just try to re-sign him?)
Johansson

This assumes guys like Kreider aren't actually moved with term left on their deals.

I don't think Carter moves at the deadline.

I REALLY don't think Columbus trades Panarin.

I REALLY think at least one of Stone/Duchene re-sign in Ottawa.

Yup, this plus you have to think about types of players. For example, Ferland/Simmonds/Boyle and Zucc/Nyquist/Burakovsky don't offer the same play and aren't going to directly compete with one another for the same spot on the same team. It's not like some GM is saying we need exactly what Ferland brings but if we can't get him we'll plug Zucc into that spot instead. Night and day player styles.