Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIV

[LORDE]

I expect them to trade both AND not get the 1st or 2nd pick. Hank isn't retiring, that would be a shocker. You can't factor in injuries in regards to a rebuild, they can happen to any team. If they trade Kredier or Zib, I would assume its for immediate help today and for futures as opposed to Hayes or Zucc, which will probably be for futures. Chityl, Anderson, Howden should improve maybe Kravtsov and Lindgren step in and contribute. I'm not saying they're a playoff lock next year, but I think they'll stabilize.

I presented possibilities... you're making some assumptions.

Either way time will tell I guess, but my money is on them being as bad or worse.

 

[Gardner McKay]

We could have every type of personality imaginable behind the bench and there will always be something someone doesn't like or doesn't agree with.

But overall, I have no problem with Quinn pushing these guys.

Neither do I. And not to take it off topic but I don't think it can be overstated how important it is. If we are going to build a winning team, there has to be a culture built around accountability and winning. The players we have currently and the guys we draft/trade for all have to buy in.

 

[LORDE]

A team cannot win with skilled players who don't or refuse to work.

Similarly, a team without talent won't be able to just "outwork" opponents.

You need players who possess both qualities.

 

[Avery16]

That Larry article pretty much sums up and confirms what many have been speculating here.

Buch is not practicing or preparing well. Two coaches, same result, same player. Who’s fault?

End of story.

If I were Buch I would tape that article with the last line highlighted to my bathroom mirror.

If it happens, I’d pack it with me to my next city and tape it there after I move.

I get the point, but no one should have to wake up to Larry Brooks’ mug every day

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

A team cannot win with skilled players who don't or refuse to work.

Similarly, a team without talent won't be able to just "outwork" opponents.

You need players who possess both qualities.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

You don't think that Gorton is looking out for the best deal possible with Hayes and Zucc? Do you think if he calls teams up and demands that they surrender prospects and picks for Zucc that they will simply turn them over?

As for Kreider, if you truly want a true tank job, go ahead and trade him and ZBad. They you will have 19 and 20 year olds trying to lead the team. Ask Edmonton how that has worked out for them. Again, everyone has a market price, but if a team wants Kreider, it is going to be a king's ransom that includes a first round pick and two prospects, one of which is the crown jewel of the organization. Yeah, it's going to hurt.

Yes, get a kings ransom for Kreider...

But Gorton can not wait until the deadline and expect the best deal for Hayes and Zucc.. The market is going to be formed around the Matt duchenes and Panarin's of the world.. Get involved now don't just deal with whoever loses out on the bigger fish

 

[Gardner McKay]

All this ideal compete level stuff sounds nice until the roster is comprised of lesser talents who work hard.

Do Crosby, McDavid, Barzal, not work hard? Does Lundqvist not work hard? You can have highly talented players that work hard. But I don't think it is just about work ethic. It is also about taking direction. Are these kids coachable?

 

[NYR Viper]

5. Los Angeles and Toronto sparred over 2019 first-rounder Rasmus Sandin. The Maple Leafs told anyone who asked they did not want to include him, and held firm. They did, however, remain Muzzin’s most consistent and aggressive pursuer. Montreal and Tampa Bay were in the picture at times, with the Canadiens trying to get him in the aborted

I was initially surprised that Timothy Liljegren wasn’t included. But, after looking deeper, teams are down on him right now. He’s not yet 20 — way too soon to give up — but several scouts were not surprised the Kings chose OHL Guelph’s Sean Durzi over Liljegren.

31 Thoughts: Three key decisions holding up NHL trade deadline dominos - Sportsnet.ca

This was interesting to me. Teams are down on Liljegren?

 

[Tawnos]

I don't know if I completely agree. I think Buchnevich only works hard when the puck is on his stick. Perhaps I am conflating work ethic with an unwillingness to engage in other areas of the game. Either way, it's inexcusable.

Yeah, it's a conflation. Buchnevich does work hard to get the puck on his stick (as evidenced by the takeaway numbers someone was citing earlier in the thread), he does work on the defensive side of the puck, both in terms of back check and being in the right position. What he does NOT do is persevere. If he has the puck and loses the puck, he doesn't go hard at getting the puck back again. When I was managing a warehouse and logistics crew, we had this saying we used whenever there would be a big challenge. "Don't give it a choice." Which is essentially saying don't allow this problem to beat you. Buchnevich seems to let most challenges beat him when he's on the ice. That's not a work ethic problem, it's a problem with his mentality.

 

[NYR Viper]

(2) games in a row the Rangers had Drury at the Winnipeg game

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

(2) games in a row the Rangers had Drury at the Winnipeg game

What does Winnipeg have that we want???

 

[Off Sides]

Do Crosby, McDavid, Barzal, not work hard? Does Lundqvist not work hard? You can have highly talented players that work hard. But I don't think it is just about work ethic. It is also about taking direction. Are these kids coachable?

Not sure I see the equivalency between those players and what the Rangers are choosing to play or scratch.

There are only so many super talented players who also are viewed as having a super high compete level. Certainly not enough for every team to have 23 or so such players. So a compromise must be made somewhere I'd think. When it eventually comes to winning, something they are rebuilding towards I'd assume, Is it better to have a hard working lesser talented overall roster or a overall roster that maybe does not need to work as hard because they are more talented? Not trying to say it has to be wholly one or the other, more so when those individual player choices have to be made which is the deciding factor, talent or hard work.

 

[NYR Viper]

What does Winnipeg have that we want???

It could be that the Rangers have their guys at the only other games being played. They aren't crazy far from NY either. Just seems off to have both head of Pro Scouting and AGM at back-to-back games of the same team in Winnipeg

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

It could be that the Rangers have their guys at the only other games being played. They aren't crazy far from NY either. Just seems off to have both head of Pro Scouting and AGM at back-to-back games of the same team in Winnipeg

Wasn't being rude, just don't know anything thats in their system other than vesalainen

 

[NYR Viper]

Wasn't being rude, just don't know anything thats in their system other than vesalainen

Oh I know, I was just trying think of another reason why they may be sending those guys to the Peg games. They have some guys I'm sure they would like in Roslovic, Appleton, Lemieux but who would be available I'm not sure

 

[EpicDing]

Wasn't being rude, just don't know anything thats in their system other than vesalainen

Roslovic, Appleton, Lemieux, Niku, Petan.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Not sure I see the equivalency between those players and what the Rangers are choosing to play or scratch.

There are only so many super talented players who also are viewed as having a super high compete level. Certainly not enough for every team to have 23 or so such players. So a compromise must be made somewhere I'd think. When it eventually comes to winning, something they are rebuilding towards I'd assume, Is it better to have a hard working lesser talented overall roster or a overall roster that maybe does not need to work as hard because they are more talented? Not trying to say it has to be wholly one or the other, more so when those individual player choices have to be made which is the deciding factor, talent or hard work.

Well, your statement was about the rangers choosing less talented players with work ethic. Correct?

My point is that there are players all over the talent spectrum with what the Rangers are looking for. You have star players like those guys who have a super high compete level. Then you have a guy like Taylor Hall that got benched recently and there were concerns about his work ethic in Edmonton. The Rangers looking for a certain work ethic in their players doesn't bar them from icing a talented team. Not since the 80's has talent on its own been enough to win a cup. If that was the case, the dark ages for us would have never existed.

Look at Zibanejad. There were concerns about if he was coachable when he was in Ottawa. Fans said he had the talent but he didn't have the drive. Zibby took what the Rangers coaching staff has given him and its resulted in him having a career year. The Rangers now trying to get the same thing to happen with an equally talented player in Buchnevich. It doesn't mean they are trying to ice a hard working, talent-less roster. It means they want their players to do what they ask.

 

[Tawnos]

Well, your statement was about the rangers choosing less talented players with work ethic. Correct?

My point is that there are players all over the talent spectrum with what the Rangers are looking for. You have star players like those guys who have a super high compete level. Then you have a guy like Taylor Hall that got benched recently and there were concerns about his work ethic in Edmonton. The Rangers looking for a certain work ethic in their players doesn't bar them from icing a talented team. Not since the 80's has talent on its own been enough to win a cup. If that was the case, the dark ages for us would have never existed.

Look at Zibanejad. There were concerns about if he was coachable when he was in Ottawa. Fans said he had the talent but he didn't have the drive. Zibby took what the Rangers coaching staff has given him and its resulted in him having a career year. The Rangers now trying to get the same thing to happen with an equally talented player in Buchnevich. It doesn't mean they are trying to ice a hard working, talent-less roster. It means they want their players to do what they ask.

I would argue that wasn’t true in the 80s, since the Oilers and Islanders teams both worked like crazy.

 

[True Blue]

Yes, get a kings ransom for Kreider...

Who is going to lead the kids if you trade Kreider and ZBad?

But Gorton can not wait until the deadline and expect the best deal for Hayes and Zucc.. The market is going to be formed around the Matt duchenes and Panarin's of the world.. Get involved now don't just deal with whoever loses out on the bigger fish

Who said that he is waiting? He has a responsibility to search out the best deal possible. Just because you believe that such a deal is out there now, does not reality make.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Yeah, it's a conflation. Buchnevich does work hard to get the puck on his stick (as evidenced by the takeaway numbers someone was citing earlier in the thread), he does work on the defensive side of the puck, both in terms of back check and being in the right position. What he does NOT do is persevere. If he has the puck and loses the puck, he doesn't go hard at getting the puck back again. When I was managing a warehouse and logistics crew, we had this saying we used whenever there would be a big challenge. "Don't give it a choice." Which is essentially saying don't allow this problem to beat you. Buchnevich seems to let most challenges beat him when he's on the ice. That's not a work ethic problem, it's a problem with his mentality.

Maybe. I just can't square the idea of being mentally unable to listen to your coaches and add more perseverance/tenacity to one's game. He's obviously upset at being on the 4th line/scratched...Quinn is obviously telling him what he needs to do to stay in the lineup and get promoted into the top 9. I don't think it's too much to ask for him to play with more urgency and engage along the boards.

Im not saying you're wrong, but its a lot easier and more comforting for me to believe that he's just immature and needs the light to go off.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The "jumping the market" stuff is akin to the chicken and the egg argument. Maybe you jump the market and get the best deal. Maybe you wait it out and prey on desperate teams that lost out on the Panarins and Stones of the world and feel they need to do...something, and are willing to overpay to do it. Who knows. The most important thing is that Gorton has set a barometer of what he'd be content with for his players on the block.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Who is going to lead the kids if you trade Kreider and ZBad?

Who said that he is waiting? He has a responsibility to search out the best deal possible. Just because you believe that such a deal is out there now, does not reality make.

I never said trade Zbad........................................

Who said the best deal isn't available now? Whos to say if the best deal will be available at the deadline?

 

[Wind Waker]

Who is going to lead the kids if you trade Kreider and ZBad?

Keep Zibby, but why do you need your most talented players to be your leaders?

 

[GAGLine]

I never said trade Zbad........................................

Who said the best deal isn't available now? Whos to say if the best deal will be available at the deadline?

Certainly not us. Maybe we best leave that to the people doing the actual negotiating.

 

[Off Sides]

Well, your statement was about the rangers choosing less talented players with work ethic. Correct?

My point is that there are players all over the talent spectrum with what the Rangers are looking for. You have star players like those guys who have a super high compete level. Then you have a guy like Taylor Hall that got benched recently and there were concerns about his work ethic in Edmonton. The Rangers looking for a certain work ethic in their players doesn't bar them from icing a talented team. Not since the 80's has talent on its own been enough to win a cup. If that was the case, the dark ages for us would have never existed.

Look at Zibanejad. There were concerns about if he was coachable when he was in Ottawa. Fans said he had the talent but he didn't have the drive. Zibby took what the Rangers coaching staff has given him and its resulted in him having a career year. The Rangers now trying to get the same thing to happen with an equally talented player in Buchnevich. It doesn't mean they are trying to ice a hard working, talent-less roster. It means they want their players to do what they ask.

I do not have any issue with them trying to instill a competitive nature, or trying to mold devloping prospects toward that, my statement was more in line with what is going to happen should that not take effect with whichever particular talented player?

To me it's not about them scratching him, it's going to be the choice beyond that should he not respond in a manner they like.

If it does come to that point, the choice will likely be, keep the talented guy and live with whatever, or trade him for a lesser talented player who fits whatever they are looking for more, likely a harder working player.

Which is why my original statement said, All this ideal compete level stuff sounds nice until the roster is comprised of lesser talents who work hard.

Once they implement a compete level threshold and start to make roster moves due to it, it's very possible that leads to choices between that and a talent level threshold. If they can not find enough players that meet both thresholds compromises have to be made.

 

[NYR Viper]

Who is going to lead the kids if you trade Kreider and ZBad?

Who said that he is waiting? He has a responsibility to search out the best deal possible. Just because you believe that such a deal is out there now, does not reality make.

Who is going to lead the kids IF Kreider decides he is going to walk himself to UFA next off-season?

I know playing in NY for the Rangers is most people's dream on this board (mine included). But if you were 28 years old, could sign anywhere, were looking to win AND get paid, would you specifically choose the Rangers with a 38 year old goalie and what looks to be a 3-4 year rebuild minimum on the horizon? I probably wouldn't.

In so saying, if I were the Rangers I would definitely be listening to offers.

 

[GAGLine]

Keep Zibby, but why do you need your most talented players to be your leaders?

It's not just about leadership, it's about insulating the kids. We need some good veterans so that the kids don't have to fill positions for which they aren't ready.

 

[NYR Viper]

It's not just about leadership, it's about insulating the kids. We need some good veterans so that the kids don't have to fill positions for which they aren't ready.

Eh, there are other ways to insulate the kids. Artemi Panarin and Chris Kreider are the SAME AGE. People are fearful of giving a legitimately elite winger in Panarin a 7 year deal. Let's assume Kreider will be looking for 7 years (as he should be).

Panarin reaches UFA at 27 years old. So his next contract will take him to 34.
Let's assume that next contract is 7 years x $9.5m

Kreider reaches UFA at 28 years old. So his next contract will take him to 35.
Let's assume that next contract is 7 years x $7m per season

Would anyone consider trading Kreider and then signing Panarin? The insulation factor is still there for the 'kids'. Panarin's long term deal expires a year earlier than Kreider's. They both play the same position.

To COL:
Chris Kreider

To NYR:
COL 1st '19 + COL 1st '20 + Shane Bowers + Tyson Jost

So the net gain is:

Col 1st '19 + COl 1st '20 + Shane Bowers + Tyson Jost + Artemi Panarin @ $9.5m (contract runs out at age 34) for Chris Kreider @ $7m (contract runs out at 35)