Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIII

[effen]

I think what's more amazing than ever in today's NHL is the amount of players who absolutely fall off a cliff.

Take Spooner for example, yeah he was flawed. And everyone knew he was one of those guys who always teased his talent. But you could at least somewhat figure that he'd post his 35-40 points, slide around a little, drive you nuts with consistency, but chip in some points.

It's not like we're talking about a guy in his mid-30s whose best days are clearly behind him. You get that.

Spooner was an AHL player who got lucky enough to be on a team that covered up all of his huge holes with teammates and system in Boston. Perfect example of how much a situation can make or break a player.

Kid was born 20 years too late, woulda had a nice roughly PPG career in the late 70s/early 80s.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Sad part... we traded for one of these guys (as a cap dump obv) but signed another one to that contract this summer

And then traded him for Strome who has been pretty good here.

 

[Edge]

Spooner was an AHL player who got lucky enough to be on a team that covered up all of his huge holes with teammates and system in Boston. Perfect example of how much a situation can make or break a player.

Kid was born 20 years too late, woulda had a nice roughly PPG career in the late 70s/early 80s.

He was inconsistent, and he definitely benefited from playing with quality linemates, but even last year with the Rangers I think he was more than just an AHL scorer who stumbled into the right situations. At the very least, he was certainly more than a .12 ppg player.

 

[LORDE]

And then traded him for Strome who has been pretty good here.

Point stands that we signed that contract. The fact that we took advantage of an impossibly inept GM who was a couple weeks away from being canned is irrelevant to what I posted.

 

[Webster]

Bob Nicholson said they werent trading their 1st pick or young guys like puuijarvi or Yamamoto. Doubt they wanna trade for Zuc.

Don't think he said anything about that 1st, and they can't show up with a bag of pucks if they want character and secondary leadership.

 

[effen]

He was inconsistent, and he definitely benefited from playing with quality linemates, but even last year with the Rangers I think he was more than just an AHL scorer who stumbled into the right situations. At the very least, he was certainly more than a .12 ppg player.

To be sure he's run cold this year, like last year he ran hot for us over those 20 games. But I think you're underestimating how situation can impact AHL scorers.

PA Parenteau and Matt Moulson are great examples of this. Marchassault had every chance to just be Jason Krog but found the right spot. All wingers, I think that's a big part of it. You'd already make it on merit as a center.

Interesting topic.

 

[Good Intentions]

Kid was born 20 years too late, woulda had a nice roughly PPG career in the late 70s/early 80s.

We say that about many - ADA included.

Level of play in 2019 dwarfs 1999, no doubt about it. All sports.

 

[I Eat Crow]

I still don't know whether to be more impressed with Gorton by him trading Spooner and getting a player of value in Strome back, or more alarmed that he gave Spooner his contract in the first place.

 

[JimmyG89]

I still don't know whether to be more impressed with Gorton by him trading Spooner and getting a player of value in Strome back, or more alarmed that he gave Spooner his contract in the first place.

To be honest, he was under a certain coach and he excelled. It was't until Quinn where he suffered. He sold Spooner to the guy he came up under and got a solid NHL player in return.

My issue is that is was a 2 year deal and not a 1 year deal, but that's nitpicking during a time when contract length for the Rangers less than 2 years was meaningless.

 

[GAGLine]

I still don't know whether to be more impressed with Gorton by him trading Spooner and getting a player of value in Strome back, or more alarmed that he gave Spooner his contract in the first place.

Why wouldn't you give him that contract? He was an RFA who had put up a decent amount of points and had done pretty well since the trade. Best case scenario is he does well, he increases his value and we trade him for something good. Worst case is he completely tanks and we have him on the roster for 2 years, years in which we aren't figuring to compete anyway. As it happened, he was closer to the worst case than the best, but we still managed to get something of value for him.

I would have been upset if we had let him go for nothing and then he signed somewhere else and did well. We can't be in the business of throwing away assets. A 2 year deal was minimal risk with a potentially decent reward.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I still don't know whether to be more impressed with Gorton by him trading Spooner and getting a player of value in Strome back, or more alarmed that he gave Spooner his contract in the first place.

I don't fault JG for the contract. I mean, Spooner historically has produced. I am impressed at how fast we recognized that he would only thrive in certain systems and managed to get value for him.

It shows me that despite what some think, management is not asleep at the wheel. They are consistently evaluating each player and each situation.

 

[Leonardo87]

...yes you can.

Well I am both

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

The trade wasn't just about Spooner... He wanted to dump Strome because he was living, skating, proof of his previous bad moves...

 

[Zibanejbread]

Don't think he said anything about that 1st, and they can't show up with a bag of pucks if they want character and secondary leadership.

Yes he did. You're mis-quoting people again.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Yes he did. You're mis-quoting people again.

Define "real good pieces" lol

I'm sure they thought they were getting great pieces in their other trades

 

[True Blue]

Kid was born 20 years too late, woulda had a nice roughly PPG career in the late 70s/early 80s.

Can't really get into these types of discussions. They are not apples to apples. Spooner would not have had access to the type of training that is received to day for athletes to stay in shape. So who knows what his skill could have been? On top of that, playing in the late 70s/80s, the game was a different animal. He would not have been allowed to skate freely and try to dangle the stick when a McSorley is planted at the net waiting to take your head or a Marchment is skating across the ice with a bullseye in his eyes because Spooner has his head down.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I kind of feel like the Kreider-Stepan conversation comes down to the old natural ability/skill vs. hockey smarts/application discussion.

I think Kreider is a more naturally talented and dangerous player --- he's a rare combination of size and skill. And it's awesome...when it comes together.

Stepan doesn't jump off the page at you. He's steady, not flashy and can quietly put together a very strong game and never be noticed.

I think Stepan had the better early career, and that Kreider will have the better career later on. We almost forget that they're only a year apart, even though Stepan feels older.

It’s been documented that away from Kreider, Stepan was not the player he was next to Kreider, whereas Kreider was not impacted moving away from Kreider. Kreider is a player who lifts the play of his line. Kreider with an elite center would be scary .

 

[Webster]

Yes he did. You're mis-quoting people again.

I noticed this one, Oilers management = bunch of clowns.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Shocker. A player who wants to maximize his bottom line.

Callahan continued to play hard, despite the hoopla. The MSL trade was awful. They could have peddled Callahan and not given up a fortune for him.

Callahan admitted he eased up and didn’t go all out that year.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Yes he did. You're mis-quoting people again.

Well, Mr. Nicholson, you need to break it all down, because you have very little of value to trade then.

 

[Edge]

It’s been documented that away from Kreider, Stepan was not the player he was next to Kreider, whereas Kreider was not impacted moving away from Kreider. Kreider is a player who lifts the play of his line. Kreider with an elite center would be scary .

I get that, and agree, within reason.

But it should be noted that Stepan had one of his two 20 goal seasons prior to Kreider, and arguably his two best seasons offensive seasons the year prior to Kreider sticking full-time, and during Kreider's rookie season.

 

[Edge]

Then, Mr. Nicholson, you need to break it all down, because you have very little of value to trade then.

Dune Oilers.

I are the Oilers.

I controls the prospects.

I controls the universe.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I get that, and agree, within reason.

But it should be noted that Stepan had one of his two 20 goal seasons prior to Kreider, and arguably his two best seasons offensive seasons the year prior to Kreider sticking full-time, and during Kreider's rookie season.

Fair enough. Stepan appears to have come in hotter and leveled off, whereas Kreider has been more of a steady climb.

 

[Fireonk]

Sad part... we traded for one of these guys (as a cap dump obv) but signed another one to that contract this summer

Point stands that we signed that contract. The fact that we took advantage of an impossibly inept GM who was a couple weeks away from being canned is irrelevant to what I posted.

I'm not really sure what the problem is. As you said, Beleskey was a cap dump that they retained 50% on and Spooner, as much as the contract looks terrible now, ultimately landed us Strome and the reality is it was only a 2 year deal. This isn't a 5 year Matt Moulson situation.

 

[Edge]

Fair enough. Stepan appears to have come in hotter and leveled off, whereas Kreider has been more of a steady climb.

Pretty much my take.

I think changes to the game have benefited Kreider more than Stepan, and I think Kreider is kind of a throwback to the power forwards of 20-25 years ago who seemed to be put it together later in their 20s.

There was a little bit of crossover for both guys, but I feel they've trended in different directions. That's one of the reasons why it doesn't feel like there's only a year separating them.