Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXII

[jay from jersey]

This is the same as people saying that the Rangers overplay the PP1 when it is blatantly false relative to the league. Their PP1 usage is right in line with much of the league.

Fox averaged 24:42/game. That's 11th among dmen. 17 played at least 24 mins. That is very typical for a top dman. In April Fox averaged 25:03/game. That is 8th among dmen. Again - perfectly normal for a top dman in the league.

In the last 10 games of the year (which Trouba did not play) his ice time went up to 25:34 which was second most in that time frame but again...we're not talking a huge difference. That's one more shift per game that he had been getting and top guys like Doughty have played more than that each of the last 10.

I will never understand why people want to play their best players LESS. What that accomplishes is making the team worse. It is not like Fox is out there playing 33 mins/game (like Chabot does sometimes). He gets perfectly typical usage for an elite 1D.

That was his average. The problem was he did have a couple 30 + min games. Especially against the devils series and the isles stomping

 

[SA16]

It’s not hard to understand. It makes sense to play your best players a lot when you are competing. When you are trying to develop your next crop of best players, who will hopefully be good enough to win playoff series (unlike the current group), it is not illogical to want to give them TOI even if there are better current options.

This team was a false contender last year and they burned a development year for critical players moving forward chasing the illusion. We have a shit ton of uncertainty on the roster right now, which is frankly delaying critical roster construction decisions, directly because of this philosophy.

Adam Fox was in his second year in the league. He does not count as part of the next crop to develop? He should not be a long term 22-23 minute/defenseman. He should be capable of averaging in the 24-26 minute range for years. You propose the team gives up? They certainly don't consider themselves a false contender and the coaching staff certainly is not going to intentionally put what they believe to be a worse product out there. Not to mention he was not blocking any young players anyway.

That was his average. The problem was he did have a couple 30 + min games. Especially against the devils series and the isles stomping

He had one 30 minute game all year and it was against the Flyers. And that game had 10 total powerplays and went to a shootout. The most he played in any game against either NYI or NJ was 27:34. In fact, in the four game series against the Devils he had one game where he played 19:40 which was his second least TOI of the entire year. In game 2 of the "Isles stomping" he played 22:30.

 

[Off Sides]

I too agree playing the best players more is a good idea, yet then it makes me question why the players who will play the least take up more cap space than otherwise could have been used on players who could play those same lesser minutes.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I too agree playing the best players more is a good idea, yet then it makes me question why the players who will play the least take up more cap space than otherwise could have been used on players who could play those same lesser minutes.

The best players always play more, they'll get pp and in the case of Zib, Strome maybe Kreider and hopefully Kakko they'll get pk time. If I'm predicting the lines knowing how Gallant likes to play players I'm guessing its

Panarin Strome Kravtsov
Lafreniere Zibanejad Kakko
Kreider Chytil Goodrow
Blais Rooney Reaves/Barron.

Pp - zib, Laf, Panarin, Fox, Kreider
2- Strome, Kakko, Kravtsov, Miller/Lundkvist, Goodrow.

Pk Zib, Blais, Trouba, Nemeth
Pk2 Goodrow, Kreider/Kakko/Strome Fox, Lindgren

 

[jay from jersey]

Adam Fox was in his second year in the league. He does not count as part of the next crop to develop? He should not be a long term 22-23 minute/defenseman. He should be capable of averaging in the 24-26 minute range for years. You propose the team gives up? They certainly don't consider themselves a false contender and the coaching staff certainly is not going to intentionally put what they believe to be a worse product out there. Not to mention he was not blocking any young players anyway.



He had one 30 minute game all year and it was against the Flyers. And that game had 10 total powerplays and went to a shootout. The most he played in any game against either NYI or NJ was 27:34. In fact, in the four game series against the Devils he had one game where he played 19:40 which was his second least TOI of the entire year. In game 2 of the "Isles stomping" he played 22:30.

Your right I don’t know why he had more 30 minute games. He was pretty consistent from 22-25 minutes all year. After the trouba injury he saw more 27-28 min games, except 1-2 here or there. they def took his toll on him. He was noticeably gassed. I’m sure being elongated from playoffs and everything else too took its toll.
But his overall toi certainly saw an increase just perusing the last 20 odd games or so. I still think they should try to get him off the ice when they can on the Pk. There’s no reason his small frame needs to be taking hits and blocking shots. I still would rather have him as fresh as possible for 5v5 and on the PP.
Never said NYR use their 1 PP more then other teams. Most teams 1st units get the brunt of the minutes cause they are the most talented/highest paid players.

 

[aufheben]

Adam Fox was in his second year in the league. He does not count as part of the next crop to develop?

They don’t count if they’re actually good. We’ve established this months ago.

 

[jaywills1020]

I don't think this is true.

Jones has 10 games of pro experience and you'd be asking for him to play on his off side. Schneider has 2 in a watered down AHL. Robertson has no pro experience period. Nils has a bunch, but zero on NA ice.

Unless one of them is just undeniable in camp, it may not be a bad idea to start ALL of them in Hartford. It'll give the WHL guys a chance to adjust to a higher pace, Nils to adjust to a higher pace and rink size, Jones (and Nils) to get prime PP minutes, etc. The AHL is a pretty grindy league, so it may serve the smaller players well to do go down and learn to deal with that in an environment where they won't cost the big team points rather than ride the bench for most of the 3rd period in every game where they're up by 1 or 2.

Remember McDonagh didn't make the team out of camp during his rookie season either (which was his D+4 season.) He is the 2nd best defenseman this team has had since the lockout and it took him all of half a season to become the best defenseman on a contending team.

I couldn’t agree more. Let the kids marinate for a year. Pro defense is the hardest position to learn and it can only help to have them get time in the ahl.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Your right I don’t know why he had more 30 minute games. He was pretty consistent from 22-25 minutes all year. After the trouba injury he saw more 27-28 min games, except 1-2 here or there. they def took his toll on him. He was noticeably gassed. I’m sure being elongated from playoffs and everything else too took its toll.
But his overall toi certainly saw an increase just perusing the last 20 odd games or so. I still think they should try to get him off the ice when they can on the Pk. There’s no reason his small frame needs to be taking hits and blocking shots. I still would rather have him as fresh as possible for 5v5 and on the PP.
Never said NYR use their 1 PP more then other teams. Most teams 1st units get the brunt of the minutes cause they are the most talented/highest paid players.

Noticeably gassed and taking more of the heavier minutes, people like to dump on Trouba but he generally matches against the bigger players on teams. If the Isles 4th line is out there so is he, if it can be managed. Fox got more of those minutes, its harder for a guy his size especially when you're gassed.

 

[mas0764]

Yeah, I do not understand that reasoning at all. I disagree with the "You can only have 2 defensemen under 6 ft" stuff. Jones needing time in the AHL has nothing to do with his size to me. He still has some room for improvement and spending a few months to a year in Hartford isn't a bad thing at all.

This team can win a Cup with Fox, Jones and Lundkvist on the team assuming they are good enough. Size is a tie-breaker at best, not a defining factor otherwise McIlrath would have 4 Norris trophies by now.

This 1000%. And yet somehow we have ended up with board gospel that Lundkvist has to go but NEITHER Trouba nor Schneider can be moved to accommodate Lundkvist because “they play the style of hockey that wins in the playoffs.”

What style is that, mediocre? Lundkvist is just on a different tier than Schneider and it would not be hard to envision a scenario where he’s better than Trouba too.

 

[mas0764]

Nils is going to be really good.

Ive heard Nils compared to Pionk and Girardi in the last few pages and I have no idea where it could be possibly coming from other than North American bias.

 

[mas0764]

I think we can argue why the Rangers don't need to trade one of Jones or Lundkvist but IMO the bottom line is that the Rangers will want one of Schneider or Robertson in the lineup, maybe even both, and Jones and/or Lundkvist are the most likely to go to make room
It's possible they could stretch it out long enough to move Trouba and make room for Schneider that way and maybe Robertson takes Lindgren's place in the lineup at some point instead, but I'm not holding my breath on that one
You can't hold onto everyone

This is probably what should happen. Keep the kids in the AHL then move Trouba when they are ready.

 

[mas0764]

Well, to the original point, it's why Jones and Lundkvist are continuously put in hypothetical trades.

They are similar style players. We can only ice 18 skaters. Consolidation and using a strength to address a weakness.

I have no problem if they are here. I have no problem if we take a wait and see approach. But I would have an issue if Lindgren, Fox, Lundkvist and Jones are 4/6 of the D corps. That's just not big enough for continued playoffs success imo

I think Lindgren is more than big enough and physical enough based on historical precedent.

 

[mas0764]

This is the biggest reason. Especially both being good PP options where Fox is going to get the bulk of the time there.

Then put Nils on the PK where he will be better than Schneider at killing penalties.

 

[mas0764]

In 2013, Nashville had Weber, Josi, Jones, Ekholm, Ellis and Klein.

And also just because no team rolls out 6 hole grown defensemen, is mostly because no team has drafted defensemen as well as us.

 

[Synergy27]

Adam Fox was in his second year in the league. He does not count as part of the next crop to develop? He should not be a long term 22-23 minute/defenseman. He should be capable of averaging in the 24-26 minute range for years. You propose the team gives up? They certainly don't consider themselves a false contender and the coaching staff certainly is not going to intentionally put what they believe to be a worse product out there. Not to mention he was not blocking any young players anyway.



He had one 30 minute game all year and it was against the Flyers. And that game had 10 total powerplays and went to a shootout. The most he played in any game against either NYI or NJ was 27:34. In fact, in the four game series against the Devils he had one game where he played 19:40 which was his second least TOI of the entire year. In game 2 of the "Isles stomping" he played 22:30.

We know this isn’t about Adam Fox.

 

[jay from jersey]

Then put Nils on the PK where he will be better than Schneider at killing penalties.

I think that’s exactly the way it’s gonna shake out this season.
The major problem is trouba can’t be moved for 3 more seasons at least, maybe more. Next season and the following is where the true log jam is going to take place. That’s where there’s going to have to be questions answered of who moves in a trade or maybe switches to LD.
Schneider, Robertson, Jones aren’t going to marinate in Hartford for that long. And I’m sure there will be other defense drafted over that time period as well

 

[MrAlmost]

Tinnordi, Bitetto and Hajek probably fill the “just in case” quota in managements’ eyes I would imagine.

I had thought that, but they are all left handed.

This is why I don't know if I agree with the "this team is betting that 1 of the 4 is ready" idea. It's betting that Lundqvist is ready as the right hander. I think a right handed insurance policy is a good idea.

In response to the others, while I like Jones' potential and he will be bigger and better this year as a matter of simply getting older, he did look out of place last year. Now that could be a combo of the bad team, rushing him in and his small size, but he didn't look like an NHL defender yet. Also, I will admit that with a partner like Nemeth, Jones, or Lundqvist, could look that much better next to a solid, no frills guy like him. I like the Krug comparison, but honestly, that remains to be seen since he didn't shows that level of play or physicality.

I will say that training camp should be really fun this year. Too bad there was no prospect camp or Traverse City. Hopefully next year.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Then put Nils on the PK where he will be better than Schneider at killing penalties.

How do you figure Nils is better than Schneider on the pk?

 

[MrAlmost]

The best players always play more, they'll get pp and in the case of Zib, Strome maybe Kreider and hopefully Kakko they'll get pk time. If I'm predicting the lines knowing how Gallant likes to play players I'm guessing its

Panarin Strome Kravtsov
Lafreniere Zibanejad Kakko
Kreider Chytil Goodrow
Blais Rooney Reaves/Barron.

Pp - zib, Laf, Panarin, Fox, Kreider
2- Strome, Kakko, Kravtsov, Miller/Lundkvist, Goodrow.

Pk Zib, Blais, Trouba, Nemeth
Pk2 Goodrow, Kreider/Kakko/Strome Fox, Lindgren

I like that lineup. Maybe Hunt instead of Barron to start the year. I think Barron might start at center in Hartford.

 

[jay from jersey]

I like that lineup. Maybe Hunt instead of Barron to start the year. I think Barron might start at center in Hartford.

Yep pretty solid. I think hunt is going to play a lot of 4th line and Blais will no doubt get a shot to move up.
I don’t think they want Barron on 4th. If he doesn’t come away with a top 9 spot out of camp he’s AHL bound.
And he’s gonna have a tough time winning the 3C job, unless he has a hell of a camp

at least til the team figures the plans out for strome/chytil sooner rather then later

 

[Clark Kellogg]

I sold off my whiskey collection this spring. Some very nice stuff. We are talking Springbank’s, 35 year old Port Ellen’s , lots of vintage Speysides and some rare Smokey Islay stuff. Now selling off my entire rum collection- which was/is even nicer than the whiskeys. I figure that today is as good a time as any to cash in. Time will tell

According to the people at “Real Vision” , Rare and quality rum is going to be the next big thing in collectibles.
Hopefully this will translate into better prices you can sell at.
Good Fortune!

 

[Clark Kellogg]

This 1000%. And yet somehow we have ended up with board gospel that Lundkvist has to go but NEITHER Trouba nor Schneider can be moved to accommodate Lundkvist because “they play the style of hockey that wins in the playoffs.”

What style is that, mediocre? Lundkvist is just on a different tier than Schneider and it would not be hard to envision a scenario where he’s better than Trouba too.

Sergei Zubov had multiple all-star appearances, two Stanley Cup rings and is In the HOF and yet he was traded. that was a bad idea back then and still a bad idea today.

 

[Levitate]

This is probably what should happen. Keep the kids in the AHL then move Trouba when they are ready.

maybe, but I don't think the Rangers want to move Trouba any time soon.

I just think people are concocting scenarios where the Rangers keep everyone because people love the ideas of prospects and "home grown players" but it's highly highly unlikely that to do keep all of them or stash them in the AHL for years just so they can finagel it that way. Players aren't going to be interested in getting buried in the AHL while they wait for Trouba or someone to get traded.

I'm not saying that there isn't a possibility they could work it all out, or that the players might not be good enough for that to happen, I just think that's not what the Rangers have in mind.

 

[brakeyawself]

maybe, but I don't think the Rangers want to move Trouba any time soon.

I just think people are concocting scenarios where the Rangers keep everyone because people love the ideas of prospects and "home grown players" but it's highly highly unlikely that to do keep all of them or stash them in the AHL for years just so they can finagel it that way. Players aren't going to be interested in getting buried in the AHL while they wait for Trouba or someone to get traded.

I'm not saying that there isn't a possibility they could work it all out, or that the players might not be good enough for that to happen, I just think that's not what the Rangers have in mind.

Yea. If all our "main" prospects, reach their ceiling or potential or whatever, I don't see any way we could possibly keep them all long term. I mean, people are dreaming of like a RD of Fox, Trouba, Lundqvist, for now, and then in 3 years Fox, Schneider Lundqvist I guess? I don't see how that would be possible at that point. Schneider and Lundqvist would both be up for new contracts in that 2 yer period, along with some of our forwards. And what, if Lundqvist or Schneider are both AS good as advertised, one of them is going to be ok playing like 12 min a game ? I doubt it. Meanwhile people are dreaming of a LD side of Lindgren, Miller, Robertson or Lindgren Jones, Robertson or whatever combination and I see that would be equally problematic long term. And if they do reach their ceiling, what do we just try to give them bridge deals for less? It's either that or spend like 20 mil on RD and like 18 Mil in LD, so possibly like 38 mil on 6 defenders, and that's probably not the highest contracts some of them will ultimately demand. I know, I am just speculating, and this would require all of these defenders to reach their potential, but it just doesn't seem like a solid long term plan to me. I think we are going to eventually have to choose 2 of Miller, Jones, Robertson and choose 1 of Schneider or Lundqvist. And then decide if Lindgren still fits in above the other two LDs. And that is with letting Trouba walk when his contract is up.

Again, all speculative. But if they ALL do reach their ceiling, or at least prove themselves in the next 3 years, we are going to have to trade some of them. So if there is something NOW that would help us.

And frankly, we don't need 2 high offense RDs. Which is why I think a lot of people see Lundqvist as superfluous as compared to Schneider. And we don't know how good Lundqvist will be on defense yet. So if Schneider and Lundqvist, both reach their potential, where would that leave Lundqvist? The only thing to do would to give him the majority of PP1 time. So Fox and Schneider spend more time on 5x5, PK , even strength. Making Lundqvist something of a PP specialist. Can we possibly afford a PP specialist like that at that point? Probably not. And look Lundqvist could still become better than Schneider, the point is more so ONE of them will eventually have to be left out of the picture.

And at LD, Jones maybe has the highest offensive ceiling, with Miller behind him. But Miller maybe has more defensive potential? Jones isn't supposed to be bad defensively either, but who knows how game will translate to NHL. So I guess theoretically Lundqvist can learn to play LD to challenge him in that. But personally, if there offenses are both good, I would want the one who is better defensively, hands down. Even if Lundqvist say scored like 10 more points a season more than Jones, if Jones was superior defensively, I would choose him.

Same is gonna go for Miller, Robertson and Lindgren. Ultimately though, I don't think Lindgren is a long term 1st pairing D guy. But he might be too good for 3rd pair too. So we probably just end up keeping 2 of our current LD's and 2 of our current RDs , who would make up the top two pairs, while we bring in new players, cheaper players for third pairing. People are going to have to get used to the idea that not all of these prospects will be with us when they are final products. I think it's that simple.

And really, if 1 or 2 of them do NOT reach their potential, then it's irrelevant anyway, because those 1 or 2 would probably be actual, at best, 3rd pair talents then, so having them wouldn't be anything special or give us any bonus. And we could just as easily bring in any 3rd pairing talent to replace them. But basically, this defeats the entire purpose of wanting to keep all of them to begin with.

 

[rangerfan_79]

Is there a competition on lengthy posts? Do they pay by the letter, the word or the line?

Scroll through many pages to read just a few decent posts per page with the rest cluttered mess of half thoughts.