Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXII

[Ola]

Old Zuke is coming back...I am worried about Brady he seems to be a shell of himself after a coach change and new contract....for over a year now 80 plus games...For the right deal he has to be in the conversation and maybe sooner rather than later..like the TDL! PS a total reversal of my thinking

The thing is, comparing any defense-men on a crappy team with any defense-men on a strong team is like comparing apples and oranges. Given how good teams are at taking the puck to the net and attack and how little Ds are allowed to do to retain them -- the job description for a D that actually has to defend don't add up.

A Tyler Myers can be very steady for a Winnipeg team, there is no chance he would be very steady for us if he played top minutes with Staal. I said this before the rebuild started too, even mentioning Skjei. I can probably dig up that post, said something like "prepare for Skjei and co to be tested in a completely different way if we tank, more or less all Ds starts to struggle in those situations".

I think many more or less only watch the Rangers and don't watch that many games between other teams in the NHL. If we look at like every single D that has passed through Edmonton the last 10 years -- and we are easily talking about almost 100 guys here -- and grade them from 1 to 10 against like reasonable expectations on the D in question when EDM got him, I seriously think that its hard to find one single example of a D that checked out of EDM with a 5 or higher grade. The reason is not that 100% of those 100 NHL defenders not only sucked, but became worse after going to EDM, its that its basically impossible to do a 'good job' on a team like that.

My point is just, I think this must be taken into consideration when evaluating our Ds in NY.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

You just can't expect players to come back and sign a contract once they hit FA after you trade them away for assets.

How often does that really happen? Vermette is an example. van Riemsdyk another. But that's about it. If the Rangers trade a player like Kreider, what are the chances he hits free agency in the first place? If he gets an offer from whichever team we trade him to, why would he turn that down? Players rarely gamble on FA.

Shattenkirk really wanted to play for his favorite team and that's why he signed with us. Tavares did the same with Toronto. The Rangers just aren't as special as some fans think they are. I see this argument made so many times online (Not directed at you personally) and fans cannot understand why a player wouldn't want to play for the Rangers, in the best city in the world bla bla bla.

NY isnt as attractive a hockey destination as it was 4 years ago purely based on where the team sits in its rebuild process. I wonder if Panarin still wants to be here with the possibility of not making playoffs for a couple more years.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The thing is, comparing any defense-men on a crappy team with any defense-men on a strong team is like comparing apples and oranges. Given how good teams are at taking the puck to the net and attack and how little Ds are allowed to do to retain them -- the job description for a D that actually has to defend don't add up.

A Tyler Myers can be very steady for a Winnipeg team, there is no chance he would be very steady for us if he played top minutes with Staal. I said this before the rebuild started too, even mentioning Skjei. I can probably dig up that post, said something like "prepare for Skjei and co to be tested in a completely different way if we tank, more or less all Ds starts to struggle in those situations".

I think many more or less only watch the Rangers and don't watch that many games between other teams in the NHL. If we look at like every single D that has passed through Edmonton the last 10 years -- and we are easily talking about almost 100 guys here -- and grade them from 1 to 10 against like reasonable expectations on the D in question when EDM got him, I seriously think that its hard to find one single example of a D that checked out of EDM with a 5 or higher grade. The reason is not that 100% of those 100 NHL defenders not only sucked, but became worse after going to EDM, its that its basically impossible to do a 'good job' on a team like that.

My point is just, I think this must be taken into consideration when evaluating our Ds in NY.

All that is true. We still need someone in our system to step up as a top pair shut down dman and then a guy like Skjei can play their game. I see him trying to do too much on the ice and chasing the puck because of it. He has gotten better since the year started but he still needs a rock on the right side, the closest we have is McQuaid who by the way was the 7th d in Boston last year so that's where we are at. Shattenkirk and Deangelo/Pionk need that guy with them too. It's why whoever plays with Claussen has a decent night, he steadies up that d pair.

 

[kvakklunch]

Last game was actually really good from the rongos. I fear for our tanking season. I feel a new win streak is imminent.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I think Zucc would gladly sign a 3-year/10m contract with the Rangers. Zucc is not in it for the money. He loves the Rangers, the fans and the City.

Most posters criticize players for the lack of loyalty. In Zuccarello you probably have one of the most loyal guys in Rangers history.

Got a little secret for the Zucc fanatics - it's not about what he wants.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Yeah I've soured on Zucc

Great that he's decided to stop moping and actually play decent hockey, but I won't be sad when he's gone

 

[FIRE DRURY]

What you were saying is highly unlikely to happen. If a team trades for Kreider they'll try very hard to sign him to an extension.

And if Kreider wants to play here and he knows he'll have a contract waiting for him next summer he'll sign here.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

You just can't expect players to come back and sign a contract once they hit FA after you trade them away for assets.

How often does that really happen? Vermette is an example. van Riemsdyk another. But that's about it. If the Rangers trade a player like Kreider, what are the chances he hits free agency in the first place? If he gets an offer from whichever team we trade him to, why would he turn that down? Players rarely gamble on FA.

Shattenkirk really wanted to play for his favorite team and that's why he signed with us. Tavares did the same with Toronto. The Rangers just aren't as special as some fans think they are. I see this argument made so many times online (Not directed at you personally) and fans cannot understand why a player wouldn't want to play for the Rangers, in the best city in the world bla bla bla.

So I'll ask again, shouldn't we just trade him now if that's the case?

 

[DutchShamrock]

ADA isn't the first player we have seen get the tough love from the coach. There's 3 outcomes in general. The player isn't good enough and will fade away. Prucha, Gilroy, Dawes.

Some actually become better players because the coach brought something out of them. Staal and Girardi had to earn minutes and I remember watching their play and not getting why other vets got more minutes. Callahan and Dubinsky got sent down, benched, 4th line use. They learned how to play in all 3 zones, become leaders, sacrifice the body.

Some are truly held back and it possibly falls on the coach. But no one just falls out of the league and failed entirely because a coach was too tough. They find it elsewhere. PA Parrenteau. Patrick Sharp comes to mind. It's not like Muckler turned Malhotra from a 1st liner to a 4th liner. Its just what he was.

Deangelo will put it together or he won't. He has all the offense in the world but I like that Quinn is pushing the little things. Frankly, I was wrong about every example above and from what I remember a lot of posters didn't know any better. Some got it back then accept that the coaches know more. I hope ADA carves a place out in this lineup and hopefully he takes advantage of the end of this season because I think he will have his best chance then.

 

[East Coast Bias]

So I'll ask again, shouldn't we just trade him now if that's the case?

If the team has decided they’re not extending him beyond his current deal - then yes, they should trade him.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

A few years I had a friend who was a Devils fan try to tell me that Blandisi would be a top 5 scorer in the NHL, maybe I should give him a call and follow up on that

 

[BBKers]

In a cap world - it is important not to let the ELCs get too much playing time and then ask for the moon when the next contract is signed. Yes. It sounds a bit absurd. Yes. It is also an unspoken reality.

 

[mulli25]

In a cap world - it is important not to let the ELCs get too much playing time and then ask for the moon when the next contract is signed. Yes. It sounds a bit absurd. Yes. It is also an unspoken reality.

And at the same time, its incredibly important to get tangible contributions from guys on ELCs

 

[Tawnos]

In a cap world - it is important not to let the ELCs get too much playing time and then ask for the moon when the next contract is signed. Yes. It sounds a bit absurd. Yes. It is also an unspoken reality.

This dovetails with my thing about how it's not always the worst idea to burn a year off the ELC. The quicker you get a guy onto the 2nd contract, the less expensive that second contract is likely to be.

 

[Ola]

All that is true. We still need someone in our system to step up as a top pair shut down dman and then a guy like Skjei can play their game. I see him trying to do too much on the ice and chasing the puck because of it. He has gotten better since the year started but he still needs a rock on the right side, the closest we have is McQuaid who by the way was the 7th d in Boston last year so that's where we are at. Shattenkirk and Deangelo/Pionk need that guy with them too. It's why whoever plays with Claussen has a decent night, he steadies up that d pair.

Yeah definitely, McDonagh always managed to hang in there and keep his head over water as a No 1 D against everyone he faces, but we haven't really had a No 1 D that is able to take command on the ice in ages.

But I am not convinced that we really must gun for that guy with a top pick, like probably is the case in relation to a top forward. Looking at the top Ds in the NHL, only a smaller part that group are former top picks. Doughty, Hedman and Seth Jones probably starts to sort into that group too. What like 90% of the top Ds are like picked 10th overall or later, and very often outside the 1st round too.

The reason for this is of course that what really separates the top Ds from the rest is their consistency level. Its a very tough position to play and its a completely different thing to play top hockey on night here and there and being able to do it every night year in and year out. The draft is more about raw abilities and those are more important for forwards, for Ds its mostly settled after the draft is held. Its a role you must grow into.

 

[DutchShamrock]

In a cap world - it is important not to let the ELCs get too much playing time and then ask for the moon when the next contract is signed. Yes. It sounds a bit absurd. Yes. It is also an unspoken reality.

Are you just thinking out loud or is this relevant to ADA? Interesting point regardless.

 

[LORDE]

NY wouldn't be even close to the best city in the world. It's obviously Melbourne.

Um... ok. I’ve been to both... I’m gonna disagree here.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

NY isnt as attractive a hockey destination as it was 4 years ago purely based on where the team sits in its rebuild process. I wonder if Panarin still wants to be here with the possibility of not making playoffs for a couple more years.

NY will always be an attractive place to play. The Garden, the city and the organization treats these players like gold. They are a marquee franchise.

 

[Gardner McKay]

He may.

He hasn't looked good, Edmonton is desperate and Chia is dumb.

Agreed.

We traded a promising young defenseman for an older, more established defenseman in Del Zotto for Klein.

Del Zotto was also not too far removed from a 40 point season at the time of that trade. Puljujarvi hasn't produced a thing at the NHL level yet.

Zucc for Puljujarvi isn't unrealistic by any means. In fact, it could be somewhat likely.

 

[DutchShamrock]

NY will always be an attractive place to play. The Garden, the city and the organization treats these players like gold. They are a marquee franchise.

To play devil's advocate, how many guys took a discount to seize that opportunity? I seem to remember outbidding most free agents. Shattenkirk is one exception and that was only with years, not salary. Now, if money was everything then Edmonton would be more successful. But NYC isn't heads and shoulders above any other city. Maybe it's a check in the pro column during decision making but it usually comes down to paying more than the other teams.

Tkachuk went back to St. Louis after his Atlanta trade but he was raising a family that had roots. The vast majority of pending UFA trades results in the player moving on from his original team. It's so overwhelming that we just have to assume the player is gone.

 

[offdacrossbar]

NY will always be an attractive place to play. The Garden, the city and the organization treats these players like gold. They are a marquee franchise.

sounds good. really it does.

but an extended rebuild/retool is concerning to would be FA's coming here.

panarin is closer to a cup in cbus than he would be here.

this team is gonna suck for a while after hayes and zuc are gone. you add in smith, maybe shatty and certainly mcquaid and that's a lot of vet presence gone too.

coming here to NYC is attractive ill give you that, but coming here with this team with the huge talent void isnt so attractive if winning is what you want to do in the next 3 years or so.

 

[GAGLine]

This dovetails with my thing about how it's not always the worst idea to burn a year off the ELC. The quicker you get a guy onto the 2nd contract, the less expensive that second contract is likely to be.

Confirmed: Tawnos is Dave Maloney.

 

[Tawnos]

sounds good. really it does.

but an extended rebuild/retool is concerning to would be FA's coming here.

panarin is closer to a cup in cbus than he would be here.

this team is gonna suck for a while after hayes and zuc are gone. you add in smith, maybe shatty and certainly mcquaid and that's a lot of vet presence gone too.

coming here to NYC is attractive ill give you that, but coming here with this team with the huge talent void isnt so attractive if winning is what you want to do in the next 3 years or so.

Not for nothing, but the Rangers had no problems signing people during the Dark Ages. Yes, they outbid other teams, but that would still have to happen today and the Rangers have cap room.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

If Zucc can only fetch a Grabner type return then I want it to be a trade with EDM because at least their 2nd rounder will definitely still be a top-45 pick. That 2nd plus Pulju is probably unrealistic unless Chia gets desperate in the final hours so two realistic options would be Yamamoto and Bear. I'm not sure who I would prefer of those two but I just think that would be what a realistic deal looks like. I wouldn't be too shocked if Gorton tries to weather the storm and get Chia to fold and give us Pulju though.

 

[Tawnos]

Confirmed: Tawnos is Dave Maloney.

I use that word a lot in every day life.