Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVII What will Santa Gorton bring us?

[FIRE DRURY]

Oh no...this crap was thrown into my mail this evening, sounds like there could be a bidding war on Zucc.
Btw...Kreider?? I didn't think he was on the block.

Rangers open for business — The Fourth Period

And I guess even Eklund is telling the truth for a change..

HockeyBuzz.com - Eklund - Which Teams are Planning for Panarin? Zuccarello, Lee, Nylander; Wed's Buzz

Uggg..

Eklund..!?

Didn’t Zucc tell you not to listen to the Harry Potter guy?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

This post is venturing into @Amazing Kreiderman territory.

Hahahaha. I see I am leaving a lasting impression

 

[DutchShamrock]

There's an article floating around today that Carolina "fully expects" to sign Fox after the college season ends. (I'll look for the link) I wouldn't expect them to say anything less.

I think LeBrun in the athletic had one on it and another link was posted 5 pages back or so. Fox said he doesn't have some grand plan to sign with the rangers, he just wants to get to the NHL asap.

But didn't Carolina try to get him signed? One thing to remember about Calgary and Carolina is crazy defensive depth. Fox may not be angling for New York so much as he is avoiding log jams. Dundon will be breathing down his GMs neck to move the kid for scoring. He keeps the puck out of his team's net, which apparently is boring to him. And he was drafted in the 1st... huge negative in dundon's metrics.

 

[RangerBoy]

They pretty clearly wanted to have a retool and thought Hank could keep them in 7th-8th for a few years while they cycled assets like in the Brassard/Ziba deal.

Then they sucked noodles and had to do a total tear down because the foundation was more rotted out than they thought.

Give them credit for not trying to pull 98-04 style hole plugging, dont tear them down for not being psychic.

This was like, less than 18 months ago. Goldfish memories.

The Rangers want to rebuild and be good at the same time.

The same nonsense from 1997 when they Messier went to Vancouver. The Garden thought the Rangers could just continue to be competitive as long as they had Leetch, Richter and Graves. They would use their money to fill the holes.

The bottom fell out and they crashed for a long time.

They kept going back to the same playbook.

Insanity. Repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

The Rangers want to rebuild and be good at the same time.

The same nonsense from 1997 when they Messier went to Vancouver. The Garden thought the Rangers could just continue to be competitive as long as they had Leetch, Richter and Graves. They would use their money to fill the holes.

The bottom fell out and they crashed for a long time.

They kept going back to the same playbook.

Insanity. Repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

Huh?

I don't see any similarities to the way the team was handled in 1997. That was basically a group of aging veterans that lost their most important aging veteran.

This team, if anything, lacks veterans. They are loaded with prospects either currently in the NHL or developing elsewhere. It wouldn't have been hard to predict in 1997 that a serious downturn was coming for the franchise in the near future. I just don't see that here. 2-3 years and this team should be able to make the playoffs, if not compete.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Kamanev (who I really like) is done for the year with a bad shoulder.

I've really soured on Kamenev. He had every reason to take a huge step forward this season and seemed to be floundering. Now he's out with a shoulder injury. If he was the guy I thought he could be I think he makes Hayes to Colorado unnecessary.

I have a hard time seeing Hayes in Boston for some reason and I have a harder time seeing the Bruins surrendering a 1st+ to us on back-to-back deadlines. I think the Coyle thing might have more legs than Hayes.

Colorado really is the perfect fit for Hayes, IMO. He slots in as the #2C for the next couple seasons while the Avs use the Ottawa pick on one of the upper-echelon C's in the draft if they don't get lucky and land Hughes. MacKinnon, Dach/Cozens/Zegras/Turcotte, and Hayes down the middle looks every bit of the cup caliber center depth every team lusts after. Add a 2nd or 3rd year pro Makar, possibly Barrie moved for a winger, and that team looks quite formidable.

Colorado's 1st, Greer/Bowers, and a conditional pick if they sign him would be my ask for Hayes as a rental. The conditions/which pick is contingent on which of the prospects comes back as I would imagine they don't value them equally. If the stars align and Hayes will go with an extension then it's Kaut and the 1st rounder with Greer or Meloche added in there. Hayes with a late pick in 2020 and lower-tier prospect like Pedrie going to Colorado.

Well, crap. I didn't realize Kamenev's shoulder injury was that bad.

Colorado really does make too much sense for Hayes - so does Philadelphia - so I wouldn't be surprised to see some form of a sign and trade there. @Trxjw I know you keep mentioning Greer, but are you ok taking a guy that tops out as maybe a 3LW for Hayes? I feel like I'd want just a bit more, especially if a contract extension is involved. I'd be much happier with Bowers, who I think would be another Howden clone.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

The Rangers want to rebuild and be good at the same time.

The same nonsense from 1997 when they Messier went to Vancouver. The Garden thought the Rangers could just continue to be competitive as long as they had Leetch, Richter and Graves. They would use their money to fill the holes.

The bottom fell out and they crashed for a long time.

They kept going back to the same playbook.

Insanity. Repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

No, they don't.

The front office has done everything they can to set this team up to develop talent first, and win second, short of forcing Hank out the door.

The players and coaches are trying to win these games, as they should be. You never want youngsters to develop in an atmosphere where they're set up for failure. It just doesn't work.

Hank is masking a lot of the deficiencies on this team right now. Once he inevitably hits a cold streak, this team will backslide. They're never going to be bottom-5 though.

There's every indication that Gorton is going to make similar moves to last season, moving out as many expiring contracts as he can. Maybe even a couple guys with term.

Posters who want the roster stripped bare of anyone over 25 are not living in reality. Do we really want to be EDM/ARI/NYI-level bad for an extended period of time? Those teams have accomplished exactly nothing despite being terrible season after season. It's not a formula for sustained success.

 

[RangerBoy]

They didn't want to run a bunch of ELC's out there.

Thats the right way to do things even if they should have made more of an effort to move certain players out of here this summer (Zucc, but they ****ed that one up long before the summer.)

This team will suck their way into position organically.

That takes too long.

The bunch of ELC's is window dressing. Some of those guys aren't going to factors in a couple of years. They are barely factors now. The bunch of ELC's is great for the Rangers house organ MSG Network to tell us how many young players are in the lineup.

The Rangers desperately need top young players. They need to be bad to get those type of players. The NHL is full of young players leading their teams. People complain about the type of contracts Tkachuk, Matthews, Marner and Rantanen will get this summer. They are the best players on their teams and they deserve to be paid accordingly. Their teams will be paying them for their present and future performances. Those players are entering their prime years at 23-24-25. Those are the prime years. What are those people complaining about?

Rantanen went 10th in 2015. The other guys were top 6 picks. The Rangers are going to end with a barely top 10 pick with their 5 shootout wins. I like Kravtsov. He has some Rantanen in him. Hopefully, Vitaly becomes that type of player for the Rangers. I like Chytil. The Rangers don't have anyone else.

The Rangers signing Panarin this summer is another move to prevent them from being bad. The Rangers won't be getting a player in his prime. He will get progressively worse and worse every year as he gets older.

The Rangers are spinning their wheels.

The Rangers need a franchise guy to build their team around and that player is found at 1-2.

 

[RangerBoy]

No, they don't.

The front office has done everything they can to set this team up to develop talent first, and win second, short of forcing Hank out the door.

The players and coaches are trying to win these games, as they should be. You never want youngsters to develop in an atmosphere where they're set up for failure. It just doesn't work.

Hank is masking a lot of the deficiencies on this team right now. Once he inevitably hits a cold streak, this team will backslide. They're never going to be bottom-5 though.

There's every indication that Gorton is going to make similar moves to last season, moving out as many expiring contracts as he can. Maybe even a couple guys with term.

Posters who want the roster stripped bare of anyone over 25 are not living in reality. Do we really want to be EDM/ARI/NYI-level bad for an extended period of time? Those teams have accomplished exactly nothing despite being terrible season after season. It's not a formula for sustained success.

Chicago and Pittsburgh.

You need to be bad to become great.

Toronto has Matthews and Marner. Where were they taken in the draft? The Leafs will be winning a Cup before the Rangers do.

You bring up the teams with awful management.

Other teams have been bad and then built up their teams to win a championship.

 

[Ghost of jas]

That takes too long.

The bunch of ELC's is window dressing. Some of those guys aren't going to factors in a couple of years. They are barely factors now. The bunch of ELC's is great for the Rangers house organ MSG Network to tell us how many young players are in the lineup.

The Rangers desperately need top young players. They need to be bad to get those type of players. The NHL is full of young players leading their teams. People complain about the type of contracts Tkachuk, Matthews, Marner and Rantanen will get this summer. They are the best players on their teams and they deserve to be paid accordingly. Their teams will be paying them for their present and future performances. Those players are entering their prime years at 23-24-25. Those are the prime years. What are those people complaining about?

Rantanen went 10th in 2015. The other guys were top 6 picks. The Rangers are going to end with a barely top 10 pick with their 5 shootout wins. I like Kravtsov. He has some Rantanen in him. Hopefully, Vitaly becomes that type of player for the Rangers. I like Chytil. The Rangers don't have anyone else.

The Rangers signing Panarin this summer is another move to prevent them from being bad. The Rangers won't be getting a player in his prime. He will get progressively worse and worse every year as he gets older.

The Rangers are spinning their wheels.

The Rangers need a franchise guy to build their team around and that player is found at 1-2.

You do see the defense this team is putting out on a nightly basis? You do see what the forward group looks like when there are injuries? Gorton made one signing and two trades. He acquired two bottom pairing Dmen, and swapped out a non-entity for what amounts to a reclamation project. Two of their top six forwards are on the block and are expected to be dealt for picks and prospects. None of that says ‘wanting to be good now’ to me.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Chicago and Pittsburgh.

You need to be bad to become great.

Toronto has Matthews and Marner. Where were they taken in the draft? The Leafs will be winning a Cup before the Rangers do.

You bring up the teams with awful management.

Other teams have been bad and then built up their teams to win a championship.

Chicago and Pittsburgh drafted their top players during a time when being the worst gave you a huge statistical advantage to get the 1OA, and there was a limit to how many spots you could jump in the lottery. We have a different system now, so your point is functionally irrelevant.

Toronto has made the playoffs 3 times in the last 13 years, each time ending in a first round exit. They've won nothing. Is that really the team you want to emulate?

Yes, they seemingly are a contender now. They were the joke of the league for over a decade. I think we can find another way to win.

 

[RangerBoy]

Chicago and Pittsburgh drafted their top players during a time when being the worst gave you a huge statistical advantage to get the 1OA, and there was a limit to how many spots you could jump in the lottery. We have a different system now, so your point is functionally irrelevant.

Toronto has made the playoffs 3 times in the last 13 years, each time ending in a first round exit. They've won nothing. Is that really the team you want to emulate?

Yes, they seemingly are a contender now. They were the joke of the league for over a decade. I think we can find another way to win.

You make it sound like this isn’t a bottom five team already. Their 5-1 shootout record skews everything. Nearly 1/2 of the league has participated in one or less shootouts. They have the fewest regulation and OT wins in the league with 9 and still don’t have a single non shootout road win. 4 shootout road “wins”.

Lundqvist is great some games and the Rangers still lose. He can’t do everything. Some games he looks awful. He blamed his new pads for his lousy play in Sunrise. He went back to his old pads in Tampa and gave up a brutal goal to McDonagh.

 

[Irishguy42]

New plan: play without pads

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

I don't understand how anyone can look at this team as constructed and think they are trying to win. It's an obvious tank job which will only be exacerbated come deadline day.

If they move Hayes, I don't really see how much more you could tank other than giving away guys that actually are useful for the future.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

You make it sound like this isn’t a bottom five team already. Their 5-1 shootout record skews everything. Nearly 1/2 of the league has participated in one or less shootouts. They have the fewest regulation and OT wins in the league with 9 and still don’t have a single non shootout road win. 4 shootout road “wins”.

Lundqvist is great some games and the Rangers still lose. He can’t do everything. Some games he looks awful. He blamed his new pads for his lousy play in Sunrise. He went back to his old pads in Tampa and gave up a brutal goal to McDonagh.

Then what are you worried about?

You made it sound like this team is committed to staying in the middle. They aren't.

This team sucks. The shoot out, a sweetheart schedule and a bunch of fortunate bounces are the only reasons why they are where they are, and they're still virtually a bottom 10 team.

 

[GAGLine]

You make it sound like this isn’t a bottom five team already. Their 5-1 shootout record skews everything. Nearly 1/2 of the league has participated in one or less shootouts. They have the fewest regulation and OT wins in the league with 9 and still don’t have a single non shootout road win. 4 shootout road “wins”.

Lundqvist is great some games and the Rangers still lose. He can’t do everything. Some games he looks awful. He blamed his new pads for his lousy play in Sunrise. He went back to his old pads in Tampa and gave up a brutal goal to McDonagh.

If you believe this is a bottom 5 team, then what are you complaining about? You keep provided statistics to show how bad this team is, then complain that the team isn't bad enough and Gorton hasn't done enough to make them bad. Make up your mind.

Hayes will be traded. Zucc will be traded. Possibly others will be traded and there will be more injuries, most likely. There are still a lot of games to lose between now and the end of the season.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

You make it sound like this isn’t a bottom five team already. Their 5-1 shootout record skews everything. Nearly 1/2 of the league has participated in one or less shootouts. They have the fewest regulation and OT wins in the league with 9 and still don’t have a single non shootout road win. 4 shootout road “wins”.

Lundqvist is great some games and the Rangers still lose. He can’t do everything. Some games he looks awful. He blamed his new pads for his lousy play in Sunrise. He went back to his old pads in Tampa and gave up a brutal goal to McDonagh.

This isn't a bottom-5 team. And it's never going to be with Hank in net. I don't like it, but shootouts are a part of the way that points are calculated. We have one of the best shootout goaltenders ever.

Bottom-5 roster outside of Lundqvist, sure. But I hate to break it to you that goaltenders are part of a NHL roster. Hank wants to be a Ranger, and the front office will let him stay or leave on his own terms. He's the only sacred cow on our roster, and I would argue the best player to ever wear the sweater.

If management was willing to push him out, we'd truly tank the way you desire. They're not. Within those bounds, I have no issue with how the front office is handling signings (RFA and UFA) and trades.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

This isn't a bottom-5 team. And it's never going to be with Hank in net. I don't like it, but shootouts are a part of the way that points are calculated. We have one of the best shootout goaltenders ever.

Bottom-5 roster outside of Lundqvist, sure. But I hate to break it to you that goaltenders are part of a NHL roster. Hank wants to be a Ranger, and the front office will let him stay or leave on his own terms. He's the only sacred cow on our roster, and I would argue the best player to ever wear the sweater.

If management was willing to push him out, we'd truly tank the way you desire. They're not. Within those bounds, I have no issue with how the front office is handling signings (RFA and UFA) and trades.

I would strongly disagree. If they follow through with their deadline plan I have a hard time envisioning them doing any better than bottom 5.

This is a god awful team and Lundqvist will very likely come back to earth. Especially with the increase of late that sees far more Grade-A chances then earlier in the season.

 

[Lion Hound]

Why are we taking moulson or Kassian back, especially Kassian who has been somewhat of an off ice problem since he got drafted. I'd rather take Talbot and a first back and let Allaire build him back up again.

Good question. How many rental players are moved without something going the other way to offset the cap hits?

 

[RangerBoy]

You do see the defense this team is putting out on a nightly basis? You do see what the forward group looks like when there are injuries? Gorton made one signing and two trades. He acquired two bottom pairing Dmen, and swapped out a non-entity for what amounts to a reclamation project. Two of their top six forwards are on the block and are expected to be dealt for picks and prospects. None of that says ‘wanting to be good now’ to me.

Why is Zuccarello still here? According to Carp, the Rangers got an acceptable offer for Zuccarello at the 11th hour last February but Gorton was too busy finalizing the Tampa trade. The Rangers don’t have an AGM capable of negotiating the final trade details for a Zuccarello deal and conducting the trade conference call with the league? This is a billion dollar company. Anyone? Eugene Melnyk isn’t the owner.

Brooks wrote the Rangers didn’t want to move Zuccarello last summer because they didn’t want to ice a bad team. So they are going through the charade of a season with the plan of trading Zuccarello at the deadline. They better hope he is healthy. They have not talked contract with the player. The player airs his grievances with a Norweigan journalist and says his comments were taken out of context. Check the Post this morning. Dan Boyle’s friend Brett has the quotes.

Hayes? His name was mentioned at the last trade deadline too. The Rangers acquired Namestnikov and Spooner. They could have been short term hold the fort guys at center. The Rangers trade Hayes at the deadline. They have the 2 vets to buy time if the kids need more time.

Hayes is playing 20 minutes per minute now. The young guys are playing out of position and on the 4th line because they need Hayes to play 20 minutes per night. They have no plan for Andersson. Gorton sounded clueless in his comments last week.

The team should be getting healthy this week. What happens with Andersson? It’s either > than 10 minutes on the 4th line or riding the bus in the AHL. The Rangers don’t have a spot for him.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Good question. How many rental players are moved without something going the other way to offset the cap hits?

It's rare, to be sure. Shopping teams want to keep their options open as it pertains to future moves. They need salary going back the other direction to keep as much free cap space as possible in case they make another big move.

Grabner had no salary coming back from NJ, but his cap hit was small anyway.

Nash had Spooner and Beleskey coming back.

McDonagh had no real salary coming back (if you consider Miller for Namestnikov a separate component), but that deal was finalized with no time left on the clock.

 

[Trxjw]

Well, crap. I didn't realize Kamenev's shoulder injury was that bad.

Colorado really does make too much sense for Hayes - so does Philadelphia - so I wouldn't be surprised to see some form of a sign and trade there. @Trxjw I know you keep mentioning Greer, but are you ok taking a guy that tops out as maybe a 3LW for Hayes? I feel like I'd want just a bit more, especially if a contract extension is involved. I'd be much happier with Bowers, who I think would be another Howden clone.

As a rental I'm fine with Greer. I think he has a shot at being a second line player but honestly I don't expect a premium prospect for any rental. The 1st rounder is the opportunity to add that sort of player and the conditional pick gives us more flexibility on the draft floor.

I touched on it in the last bit of my post but if Hayes is dealt with an extension then I'd want Kaut, one of Greer/Meloche, and their first this year for Hayes and a couple minor adds.

 

[nyr__1994]

You make it sound like this isn’t a bottom five team already. Their 5-1 shootout record skews everything. Nearly 1/2 of the league has participated in one or less shootouts. They have the fewest regulation and OT wins in the league with 9 and still don’t have a single non shootout road win. 4 shootout road “wins”.

Lundqvist is great some games and the Rangers still lose. He can’t do everything. Some games he looks awful. He blamed his new pads for his lousy play in Sunrise. He went back to his old pads in Tampa and gave up a brutal goal to McDonagh.

I can't figure you out....In one post you are complaining because the team is bad, and then in next post you are complaining they aren't bad enough.......

Which is it?

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Why is Zuccarello still here? According to Carp, the Rangers got an acceptable offer for Zuccarello at the 11th hour last February but Gorton was too busy finalizing the Tampa trade. The Rangers don’t have an AGM capable of negotiating the final trade details for a Zuccarello deal and conducting the trade conference call with the league? This is a billion dollar company. Anyone? Eugene Melnyk isn’t the owner.

Brooks wrote the Rangers didn’t want to move Zuccarello last summer because they didn’t want to ice a bad team. So they are going through the charade of a season with the plan of trading Zuccarello at the deadline. They better hope he is healthy. They have not talked contract with the player. The player airs his grievances with a Norweigan journalist and says his comments were taken out of context. Check the Post this morning. Dan Boyle’s friend Brett has the quotes.

Hayes? His name was mentioned at the last trade deadline too. The Rangers acquired Namestnikov and Spooner. They could have been short term hold the fort guys at center. The Rangers trade Hayes at the deadline. They have the 2 vets to buy time if the kids need more time.

Hayes is playing 20 minutes per minute now. The young guys are playing out of position and on the 4th line because they need Hayes to play 20 minutes per night. They have no plan for Andersson. Gorton sounded clueless in his comments last week.

The team should be getting healthy this week. What happens with Andersson? It’s either > than 10 minutes on the 4th line or riding the bus in the AHL. The Rangers don’t have a spot for him.

The Rangers traded McDonagh, Miller, Nash, Grabner, and Holden last season. That's a quarter of their roster, yet you're still complaining that they didn't trade even more players?

Do you ever take a step back and ask yourself: "Is this reasonable?"

You can't trade everyone. You need veterans, even if your goal is ultimately to tank. Throwing rookies into the deep end is a terrible strategy.

I'm not going to sit here an crucify Gorton because he didn't deal Zuccarello amid a flurry of last-minute activity involving a much larger trade (McDonagh). Zuccarello is a fan favorite and important player on the team. You need to be sure when you make those kinds of moves.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Why is Zuccarello still here? According to Carp, the Rangers got an acceptable offer for Zuccarello at the 11th hour last February but Gorton was too busy finalizing the Tampa trade. The Rangers don’t have an AGM capable of negotiating the final trade details for a Zuccarello deal and conducting the trade conference call with the league? This is a billion dollar company. Anyone? Eugene Melnyk isn’t the owner.

Brooks wrote the Rangers didn’t want to move Zuccarello last summer because they didn’t want to ice a bad team. So they are going through the charade of a season with the plan of trading Zuccarello at the deadline. They better hope he is healthy. They have not talked contract with the player. The player airs his grievances with a Norweigan journalist and says his comments were taken out of context. Check the Post this morning. Dan Boyle’s friend Brett has the quotes.

Hayes? His name was mentioned at the last trade deadline too. The Rangers acquired Namestnikov and Spooner. They could have been short term hold the fort guys at center. The Rangers trade Hayes at the deadline. They have the 2 vets to buy time if the kids need more time.

Hayes is playing 20 minutes per minute now. The young guys are playing out of position and on the 4th line because they need Hayes to play 20 minutes per night. They have no plan for Andersson. Gorton sounded clueless in his comments last week.

The team should be getting healthy this week. What happens with Andersson? It’s either > than 10 minutes on the 4th line or riding the bus in the AHL. The Rangers don’t have a spot for him.

Again, patience. Trades will get done when they get done. Am I disappointed Zuccarello hasn’t been dealt yet? Of course, but I’m also disappointed it’s not June 21st and the Rangers are on the clock for a top five pick. This is a bad team. The worst is yet to come. Since the letter, Gorton has stuck to exactly what he said the Rangers would do. They didn’t trade picks and players for Karlsson like most of the hockey world expected. They didn’t sign Kovalchuk. They were never in the Tavares sweepstakes. They didn’t hire a retread for a head coach. They didn’t bolster the lineup with bad bottom six signings. They made their intentions clear on Hayes by not signing him long term. They got good value for their vets last year at the deadline. Perhaps Gorton feels he can get the value he wants closer to the deadline. Maybe the value he’s seeking for each player has not been met yet. I have been on board with this rebuild since the letter came out. People need to not rush the process.