Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVI

[True Blue]

He’s at best the 6th best 2C in the conference, depending upon how you view Krejci and what happens to Trocheck going forward. His production is not irreplaceable.

That's fine, but if he goes to score 60 points this year and 65 next, what does it matter that he is 6th best 2C in the conference? What is he around the league? How many other 60-65 point scoring two way 2nd line centers are there? His replacement value gets much more difficult at that level.

 

[Ghost of jas]

That's fine, but if he goes to score 60 points this year and 65 next, what does it matter that he is 6th best 2C in the conference? What is he around the league? How many other 60-65 point scoring two way 2nd line centers are there? His replacement value gets much more difficult at that level.

That’s what you’re up against in this conference if the goal is winning the Cup. This isn’t happening in a vacuum.

 

[Trxjw]

Would the Rangers wait that long re-sign him? As he gets closer to UFA, he can change his mind. Let's assume they want to make a decision on him this off-season

I think they'll have plenty of talks but I think they'll want some confirmation that this year wasn't an aberration before they commit. I could be totally wrong though. They might see it as worth the risk as it will keep speculation down next season.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

There really is no thought process here. Krieder has turned into a legit top line player. One with size and skill. He has become a leader in the locker room. He is more than young enough to be here on the other side of the rebuild. When it's his time, he gets resigned to a nice contract that has him here for a long time.

I had long been willing to trade Kreider for his perceived value around the league, as I thought he could bring back tons of value to a rebuild – and honestly, I maintain the position that no one, including him, is untouchable for the right offer, but...

The value of a "right offer" has gone through the roof this year. He's now in the "you're going to have to blow me out of the water" category.

 

[True Blue]

That’s what you’re up against in this conference if the goal is winning the Cup. This isn’t happening in a vacuum.

I understand. But realistically, IF he gets to be a 65 point two way player, the chances of you bringing in someone to replace him are just not that great.

 

[True Blue]

I had long been willing to trade Kreider for his perceived value around the league, as I thought he could bring back tons of value to a rebuild – and honestly, I maintain the position that no one, including him, is untouchable for the right offer, but...

The value of a "right offer" has gone through the roof this year. He's now in the "you're going to have to blow me out of the water" category.

Of course, BRF. NO ONE is untradeable. There is a market clearing rate for everything. But, yes, the "right" offer for Kreider would need to an offer that Gorton could just absolutely not be able to walk away from. what that is? Who knows?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

The way RB Was talking, he said expiring NMC's so maybe they don't have to be protected?

I can't keep up these things anymore.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I understand. But realistically, IF he gets to be a 65 point two way player, the chances of you bringing in someone to replace him are just not that great.

Let someone else pay for that gamble. He’s getting PP time and gets to play with the team’s two best offensive wings and is on pace 55 points and 16 goals. I have my doubts about him becoming a 65 point center.

 

[Fvital92]

Kevin Hayes is a much better player then Anisimov and Miller. He's on pace for over 55 Points as of today and he's good defensively. He's not scored 50+ earlier in his career because AV didn't use him on the PP, that's the only reason.

Edit: With top 6 usage and PP time he would have averaged over 50 Points in his NYR career, yet you talk of him like some average 3C, get a grip.

The only right decision AV made in his last few years with the Rangers. Hayes isn't good on the PP, and he isn't an average 3C, he is an amazing 3C and bellow average 2C in our division.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I’ll sleep walk to 10.

They’re a 4-6 week injury to Kreider away from more or less locking themselves into a top 5 selection.

Any key player loss for an extended period of time would impact our results and so if it occurs than it’s back to the semi-tank, I’ll gladly take a top 5 if that’s the way it works out

 

[NYR Viper]

I can't keep up these things anymore.

I agree, I rely on the many guys around here to get many of my facts. I'm hoping you guys aren't f***ing with me...

 

[Gardner McKay]

You made this point yesterday, but we’re pretty screwed if one of the kids can’t surpass the current level of Kevin Hayes.

I’m still stuck on what we’d get for him or Kreider in a trade, and gun to my head, I choose to keep Kreids. What do you think we’d get for a rental Hayes vs. an extended Hayes?

Winnipeg has the most appealing assets, but I genuinely don’t understand how Chevy will manage that cap situation with Laine, Connor, Morrissey, Roslovic, and Trouba all having ELC/RFA deals end within the next two years. I wonder if we could eat Perreault and/or Kulikov’s deals to get a kid like Roslovic.

Knowing Chevy he will wait until the heat death of the universe before making a decision. He has backed himself into a corner and I don't believe he has the stones to make the big move needed to get out of that corner.

If I had to guess, I would expect more movement after 12/1. I wonder how many teams/trades are being held up because of the Nylander situation. If a team is pushing hard to acquire Nylander and loses out, you wonder how much they would overpay for Kreider? Or if a team that is light on C depth sees a rival make a big play for Kreider, do they now have interest in Hayes to shore up their own top 6/9?

 

[Anthony5967]

Hayes is starting to wear on me. I like how he has played. I'd keep him but I would retain Kreider first. Anybody else feel that way? If you re-sign both then Panarin is no longer a possibility.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

Before the season I was 100% in the pro trade camp, now I’m split. Hayes will command a pretty decent contract, and is it worth? Remember this, he doesn’t have a lot of miles on his body, he signed at what 22? The issue I have is, unless Quinn starts sliding guys around to the wing, there will be an obvious log jam at center, which we’ve all discussed ad nauseum on here. He’s a great 3C middle of the road 2C. He has really elevated his overall game since the start of last season. I’d say judging by the eye test that this is the most confident and comfortable Hayes has been in his career. Now does Gorton still trade him between now and the deadline? Most likely. Does Gorton tell the Hayes camp we wanna re-sign you in the summer 100% because we feel that’s what best for the organization? Or does Gorton wanna sell high and cut ties and build off the package Hayes will return in a trade? Time will tell. Interesting to say the least.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Hayes is starting to wear on me. I like how he has played. I'd keep him but I would retain Kreider first. Anybody else feel that way? If you re-sign both then Panarin is no longer a possibility.

Kreider is signed through next year

 

[Luger]

I think that guy's point, though, is that you can get elite, core pieces outside of the top-5.

Anything is possible, just more likely to get a great player early than late. You can get Messier in the 3rd round, Lundqvist at 205 and Robitaille at 171, so why not trade away all our top picks, draft a few mid to late round picks and call it a day? It's possible, amirite? Lundqvist turned out better than DiPietro, so from now on, there is no difference between #1 OA and #205.

I'd rather take my chances with 3 first round picks, including an early one, than with a single #15-20.

 

[True Blue]

Let someone else pay for that gamble. He’s getting PP time and gets to play with the team’s two best offensive wings and is on pace 55 points and 16 goals. I have my doubts about him becoming a 65 point center.

I am not disputing the notion. I am just playing devil's advocate. I would not take that chance. But there are possibilities that his own desire and Quinn got through to him and he scores around 60 this year. The Rangers trade him. He scores 65 next year and hoists a Cup. The Rangers spend the next 5 years trying to replace him. As I said, I also believe that he is not going to become that player, but he is a lot closer today than he was a few years ago. And as Rangers fans, we have seen this movie before.

And to be fair, he has not spent the majority of this season playing with the team's two best offensive wings.

 

[Edge]

The biggest issue with keeping Hayes is that, like you stated, I’m not convinced that a Zibanejad/Hayes 1-2 punch in the middle is good enough to make the Rangers anything more than also-rans for the Cup.

The other two issues I have regarding Hayes are 1) the machinations people are suggesting the Rangers go through to keep him, and 2) the idea that getting another late 1st isn’t worth moving Hayes for.

In regards to the first point, one of the benefits of being ‘more experienced ‘ (ahem) is that you learn that the simplest solution is often the best. If you’re keeping Hayes, how are you impacting the rest of your roster, especially in the cap era.

As for the second point, the Rangers have used ‘late’ 1st round picks on Chytil and Miller. Don’t tell me that Hayes is worth more to this franchise than either of those players going forward. The Rangers need more opportunities to acquire that kind of talent. If the price is Kevin Hayes, so be it.

You know that's a good point as well.

There's this tendency to downplay late first round picks (say 20-31).

But players falling into that category include Miller, Lundkvist, Howden, Chytil, Skjei, and MDZ over the last 10 years.

If we're feeling generous and want to include 19th overall picks by playoff bound teams, we'd also include Kreider and ADA on that list.

Even Hayes himself was a 24th overall pick.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I am not disputing the notion. I am just playing devil's advocate. I would not take that chance. But there are possibilities that his own desire and Quinn got through to him and he scores around 60 this year. The Rangers trade him. He scores 65 next year and hoists a Cup. The Rangers spend the next 5 years trying to replace him. As I said, I also believe that he is not going to become that player, but he is a lot closer today than he was a few years ago. And as Rangers fans, we have seen this movie before.

And to be fair, he has not spent the majority of this season playing with the team's two best offensive wings.

But he has lately and we haven’t seen an uptick in his production. I am very skeptical we see more than what we’ve seen, at least in the current situation.

 

[Edge]

You made this point yesterday, but we’re pretty screwed if one of the kids can’t surpass the current level of Kevin Hayes.

I’m still stuck on what we’d get for him or Kreider in a trade, and gun to my head, I choose to keep Kreids. What do you think we’d get for a rental Hayes vs. an extended Hayes?

Winnipeg has the most appealing assets, but I genuinely don’t understand how Chevy will manage that cap situation with Laine, Connor, Morrissey, Roslovic, and Trouba all having ELC/RFA deals end within the next two years. I wonder if we could eat Perreault and/or Kulikov’s deals to get a kid like Roslovic.

Spit-balling, I'd say the asking price for rental Hayes is a good prospect, a first, and something extra (another pick, a lesser prospect, a support player).

An extended Hayes, probably a better prospect and a better extra piece.

However, I'm not sure Hayes wouldn't want to test free agency being so close to the finish line. After all, this would be the second time he's become an UFA.

 

[True Blue]

Hayes is starting to wear on me.Anybody else feel that way?

What has he done to raise your ire?

I like how he has played. I'd keep him but I would retain Kreider first.

Of all of the things being debated, this is NOT one of them

If you re-sign both then Panarin is no longer a possibility.

With what he is likely going to ask for, he may not be a possibility anyway.

 

[Ghost of jas]

You know that's a good point as well.

There's this tendency to downplay late first round picks (say 20-31).

But players falling into that category include Miller, Lundkvist, Howden, Chytil, Skjei, and MDZ over the last 10 years.

If we're feeling generous and want to include 19th overall picks by draft picks of playoff pound teams, we'd also include Kreider and ADA on that list.

Even Hayes himself was a 24th overall pick.

We aren’t just tossing away late picks on role players. We’re getting top six forwards and top four Dmen. And lately, the scouting staff is identifying higher end talent in that area. If trading Hayes gets another lottery ticket that produces a Kreider, Chytil, Miller or even an ADA or Howden, I don’t see how that pick doesn’t have every bit the impact going forward for the Rangers than what Hayes currently provides.

Again, we are in new territory and a lot of people are not recognizing it.

 

[Fireonk]

You know that's a good point as well.

There's this tendency to downplay late first round picks (say 20-31).

But players falling into that category include Miller, Lundkvist, Howden, Chytil, Skjei, and MDZ over the last 10 years.

If we're feeling generous and want to include 19th overall picks by draft picks of playoff pound teams, we'd also include Kreider and ADA on that list.

Even Hayes himself was a 24th overall pick.

I think its fair to say that the Rangers, and the players who they ultimately ended up with, from those draft spots look like home runs so far it is still the minority of picks in that range that end up as true impact players at the NHL level.

I'm 100% on the trade Hayes bandwagon since I think the value of his return is greater than him extending at what I expect his salary cap number to be, but its still a risk this organization is taking.

 

[Tawnos]

Anything is possible, just more likely to get a great player early than late. You can get Messier in the 3rd round, Lundqvist at 205 and Robitaille at 171, so why not trade away all our top picks, draft a few mid to late round picks and call it a day? It's possible, amirite? Lundqvist turned out better than DiPietro, so from now on, there is no difference between #1 OA and #205.

I'd rather take my chances with 3 first round picks, including an early one, than with a single #15-20.

I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that you need 1st round picks. Really, I would say you need as many picks as possible in the top-90 as you can get. It's the main reason why, going into the draft, I was saying I didn't want to package one of our seconds with a 1st to move up. Of course, I'm really happy with Miller and it's water under the bridge.

The question is, how much do you really need top-3 or -5 picks vs getting picks in the 6-15 range?

 

[Ghost of jas]

I think its fair to say that the Rangers, and the players who they ultimately ended up with, from those draft spots look like home runs so far it is still the minority of picks in that range that end up as true impact players at the NHL level.

I'm 100% on the trade Hayes bandwagon since I think the value of his return is greater than him extending at what I expect his salary cap number to be, but its still a risk this organization is taking.

Frankly, I don’t see it as more of a risk than moving McDonagh, especially since McDonagh filled a much more important role, and one that is much more difficult to fill. Moving Hayes carries much less risk.