Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XVI (Playoffs or Retool?)

[Boris Zubov]

That's true.

Crazy thing is he just played through it when he could barely skate, albeit with his abilities severely diminished.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I mean, Florida has a 2nd overall playing 1C.

Yeah but look at how the rest of that roster was put together.

Tkachuk? Trade (A trade of a 3OA and a very good defenseman.)
Bennett? Trade (a trade of basically 2 2nds for a guy who had the time, I think had like 4 goals on the season. It worked out in the end but Mas and a large majority of this place would have lost their shit had the Rangers done something similar.)
Verhaghe? UFA
Reinhart? Trade
Rodrigues' ugly ass mug? UFA
Their entire defense aside from Ekblad who was a 1OA and sucks? Trade or UFA.

Bobrobsky? Giant ass UFA contract.

I think we're on the same page about getting good players in. I don't really care how or how old, just get enough of them and get rid of the guys who are actively sabotaging your chances of winning.

The system may not be overflowing with blue chip talent, but theres enough there to off set more expensive players.

I mean Vegas won by basically pushing the all in button until they did. There is no one formula and I think thats only going to get more and more common as we move forward.

 

[mas0764]

Where would the money come in from during these few years? Corporate ticket holders, everyone but the die hards would cancel their plans. They won't want to see a bunch of kids on the ice while they entertain clients and even if they are there for the hockey. They'll be dying to get that Perreault jersey, right, at the merch shop.

This is a bit disingenuous.

The Rangers are not hurting for fans or income streams. They are the most valuable team in the league aside from the Leafs. Even if they took a short term loss they generally make money hand over fist and would recoup any loss as soon as they are remotely competitive again. If they want to suffer for a few years to build a real winner, they can afford to.

That's one of the reasons we will never be Buffalo or Ottawa, people throwing the "we can't rebuild because we don't want a decade long rebuild that never works," is so misguided.

We have too many assets. We can always spend cash. Even when we are bad we'll be profitable.

 

[McRanger92]

Igor should have been traded.

Cuylle, Lafreniere, Schneider, they are all young enough. We need 2-3 years or so to supplement these guys, they'd be right at 26, 27, 28 if we do this right.

Fox will be aging but he's so good he's probably still in his late prime.

Chytil, who the hell knows with that guy anymore? It's probably time to cut bait. He can't stay healthy and when he does he's a 40 point player.

I like the guy and he can stay but if he also has to be traded so be it. But he should be traded for a new shot at a young player and not an old one.

Again, if you want to tell me that Miller is coming in to be a shepherd, fine, but I'd only sign up for that if the plan is to have him be a custodian here while we go back to getting the young talent we need. There's something for saying you have to have a veteran presence.

But if the idea is to try to swap in Miller for Mika and then continue to win with the rest of this core, that's not gonna work.

If you trade Mika, Panarin, Kreider, Smith, Lindgren, Trocheck, maybe flip Chytil in a hockey trade for a young defenseman, you'll be bad enough and have enough assets and cap space that you have some HOPE that you'll be able to trade for a 1C and then also find a Bennett and Tkachuk within 3 years, in trades, reclamation projects, and free agency.

What you arent understanding is that the organization didnt invest huge chunks of their long term cap space in Igor, Fox and Laf (and presumably Cuylle and K'Andre this summer), to not go for it every year. What is your cut-off age for acquiring talent? Like is everything copacetic for you if they just trade for Pettersson instead of JT? It just seems like you'd rather burn the house down than simply get a new dishwasher and refrigerator for the house.

 

[will1066]

If you want to bring in more talent, being against getting a talented player at 30 cents on the dollar just because they're a bit older kind of seems ridiculous.

If its the only thing they do and they expect that move alone will be enough then yeah, kind of dumb to go 15% of the way and give up/expect that everything will get better while still keeping the bigger holes on the roster.

It can flip quickly with out getting stupid though, take a look at the Caps. The Rangers basically played with their dicks in the first round and swept them 9 months ago. They made some smart acquisitions via futures/paid money for UFAs and made a pretty risky play on a severely underperforming malcontent(PDL) while keeping their important pieces. They look pretty f***ing good now.

I'd also tread very, very, very carefully on Pettersson.

(Blue for 22-23, Red for 23-24 and black for 24-25)

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He isn't struggling because because JT Miller is bullying him. He's struggling because at the ripe old age of 26 he's having trouble moving how he did at 24.

That worries me MUCH more than a player who is turning 32, especially because he's going to cost so much more. You aren't getting a bargain here.

Looking at the consecutive-year head shots, he's aging prematurely. Increase in undereye lines, hair going white. Skin tone not as robust.

 

[McRanger92]

This is a bit disingenuous.

The Rangers are not hurting for fans or income streams. They are the most valuable team in the league aside from the Leafs. Even if they took a short term loss they generally make money hand over fist and would recoup any loss as soon as they are remotely competitive again. If they want to suffer for a few years to build a real winner, they can afford to.

That's one of the reasons we will never be Buffalo or Ottawa, people throwing the "we can't rebuild because we don't want a decade long rebuild that never works," is so misguided.

We have too many assets. We can always spend cash. Even when we are bad we'll be profitable.

How'd it look from 99-2004?

 

[mas0764]

Yeah but look at how the rest of that roster was put together.

Tkachuk? Trade (A trade of a 3OA and a very good defenseman.)
Bennett? Trade (a trade of basically 2 2nds for a guy who had the time, I think had like 4 goals on the season. It worked out in the end but Mas and a large majority of this place would have lost their shit had the Rangers done something similar.)
Verhaghe? UFA
Reinhart? Trade
Rodrigues' ugly ass mug? UFA
Their entire defense aside from Ekblad who was a 1OA and sucks? Trade or UFA.

Bobrobsky? Giant ass UFA contract.

But taking a chance on Bennett is the exact kind of thing the Rangers should be looking to do!

They took a chance on a 24 year old former 4th overall pick who had untapped upside, and the price was Emil Heineman (a 2nd round pick forward) and another 2nd round pick. It's like the Kakko trade in reverse.

It would be like if we traded Berard and a second for Marco Rossi. Yes! Sign me up!

 

[mas0764]

What you arent understanding is that the organization didnt invest huge chunks of their long term cap space in Igor, Fox and Laf (and presumably Cuylle and K'Andre this summer), to not go for it every year.

Why not? Those long term contracts are exactly the kind of deals you need to hand out to have your core in place.

I never said tear it down to the studs. But guess what, Lafreniere on a 7 year deal gives you 3-4 years to build up your team around him and then still have him under contract for a few seasons. Why do we have to COMPETE RIGHT NOW just because we just gave out a big contract?

It's like you learned nothing from the Panarin signing. We should have deferred any attempts to be good until the present once we had him locked up, (Mika and Kreider should have been traded when their contracts were nearing expiration), as opposed to trying to win with an undercooked team that was very clearly not good enough.

If you move out Mika-Kreider-Smith-Lindgren-Panarin-Trocheck, maybe flip Chytil in a hockey trade for a young defenseman, you're not gonna lose every game but you'll be bad enough to accumulate assets to get some real building blocks in here.

What is your cut-off age for acquiring talent? Like is everything copacetic for you if they just trade for Pettersson instead of JT? It just seems like you'd rather burn the house down than simply get a new dishwasher and refrigerator for the house.

Don't be obtuse, there is no set cut off age.

We need a young, talented core and right now we have very little. Even Lafreniere, Cuylle, Perrault, there are all still pieces we are hoping for, they are not proven like Tkachuck, Barkov, and Reinart. We need LOTS of talent injected into this organization and there's no real way to get it if you are keeping the existing core. And if you are not keeping the existing core, there's no sense in counting on a 32 year old to still be at all effective once you are ready.

We just went through this like 3 years ago and I was proven right. I said, "It doesn't make sense to try to win with Kreider and Mika because by time Lafreniere and Kakko are ready they will be aged out." Look where we are. Don't do it again with Miller.

 

[mas0764]

The Rangers should be aggressively after guys like Rossi, Byfield, Zegras, Cozens, Byram, McTavish, Shane Wright, etc. Either teams who weren't able to develop these players and want to move on, or go to teams who are trying to win now and maybe you can flip guys like Panarin in a package for some of them. Hell, maybe a winning team like Dallas is willing to buy Mika or Kreider and would trade, like, Stankkoven, Bishel, or Bourque. Not saying all or any of these SPECIFIC names are available, but yeah, Byram has already been traded, Bennett a former 4th overall was traded, hell we just traded Kakko and he's thriving in a new environment.

Keep turning over stones to get that young core. It's not that you can NEVER add 32 year olds, but they should be added to existing cores and we don't have one that remotely appears good enough to be a future contender.

 

[McRanger92]

The Rangers should be aggressively after guys like Rossi, Byfield, Zegras, Cozens, Byram, McTavish, Shane Wright, etc. Either teams who weren't able to develop these players and want to move on, or go to teams who are trying to win now and maybe you can flip guys like Panarin in a package for some of them. Hell, maybe a winning team like Dallas is willing to buy Mika or Kreider and would trade, like, Stankkoven, Bishel, or Bourque. Not saying all or any of these SPECIFIC names are available, but yeah, Byram has already been traded, Bennett a former 4th overall was traded, hell we just traded Kakko and he's thriving in a new environment.

Keep turning over stones to get that young core. It's not that you can NEVER add 32 year olds, but they should be added to existing cores and we don't have one that remotely appears good enough to be a future contender.

Very easy to say the Rangers should trade their aging, unwanted players for other teams prized young players. Akin to Canucks fans saying Lafreniere is a must in a JT Miller trade. If you want any of those guys, you're going to have to trade similarly aged players for them. I've brought up Cozens a bunch of times because I believe he'll be better outside of Buffalo, but the cost there is probably Schneider.

 

[noncents]

Smith is a ufa. Did you mean someone else?

no - i just think that if we move one or both of bread and kreids (highly unlikely), we'll sign Smith

 

[SA16]

I mean we needed a top 6 winger and traded assets away for a bottom 6 winger. There's really not much difference between Smith, Vesey, Brodzinksi, etc other than opportunity. If you took those assets and added to them we'd have a top 6 winger, especially given his cap hit of almost 4 mill, it made zero sense. We could have just signed David Perron to a 2 year deal without the assets.

I am not seeing how there isn't a big difference between Smith and Vesey/Brodzinski. Smith had 2 less points last year than Brodzinski has in his entire career. Brodzinski has never even been capable of making the lineup as a regular. Smith has already matched Vesey's offense total each of the last two years, and has more points the last 3 years than Vesey has the last 6.

David Perron has 0 points in 12 games this year. That's the guy you wanted them to have? His best ability has always been his shot on the PP (which is not something they'd have been looking for in the offseason)

When has Reilly Smith ever been a bottom six winger anyway? At 5v5 amongst wings on his team

23-24: 3rd in TOI and 3rd in points
22-23: 2nd in TOI and T-1 in points
21-22: 4th in TOI and 3rd in pts/60 (56 games)

 

[mas0764]

Very easy to say the Rangers should trade their aging, unwanted players for other teams prized young players. Akin to Canucks fans saying Lafreniere is a must in a JT Miller trade. If you want any of those guys, you're going to have to trade similarly aged players for them.

I said maybe something like that is on the table.

If not, I'll take picks.

And we know you can find Emil Heineman and a second for Sam Bennett, or, you have extra ammo now to go get that next Matt Tkachuk. Or Reinart was acquired for the 28th pick and a 6th round goalie prospect. We have that level of ammo.

The tricky part is you have to be right on the scouting. The Panthers were. It's hard, but not impossible. That's how you build a core that can win.

What's not gonna work is doubling down by adding 32 year olds. JT Miller probably already isn't 100 point JT Miller anymore. He probably won't even be 80 point JT Miller anymore in 2 years. Why are we doing this?

A 32 year old is a quickly depreciating asset. Are we winning this year or next? I mean, you must be out of your mind if you think this broken down team is gonna fix it's problems with Miller. And he's not part of any future solutions as a main driver of production on a Cup winner either because of his age. It's a simple statistical fact: He will be going downhill very fast.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

The Rangers should be aggressively after guys like Rossi, Byfield, Zegras, Cozens, Byram, McTavish, Shane Wright, etc. Either teams who weren't able to develop these players and want to move on, or go to teams who are trying to win now and maybe you can flip guys like Panarin in a package for some of them. Hell, maybe a winning team like Dallas is willing to buy Mika or Kreider and would trade, like, Stankkoven, Bishel, or Bourque. Not saying all or any of these SPECIFIC names are available, but yeah, Byram has already been traded, Bennett a former 4th overall was traded, hell we just traded Kakko and he's thriving in a new environment.

Keep turning over stones to get that young core. It's not that you can NEVER add 32 year olds, but they should be added to existing cores and we don't have one that remotely appears good enough to be a future contender.

All this is very easy to say when you have no skin in the game and it's not your ass on the line. In theory I guess you're approach should work, but in the real world it's not that easy. Players bust, they get hurt. GMs usually don't survive perpetual rebuilds. I mean, what do the Devils have to show for their years of rebuilding? A second round appearance two years ago? And saying trade this old guys for these young guys is like fantasy land stuff. There's no magic formula here.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

But taking a chance on Bennett is the exact kind of thing the Rangers should be looking to do!

They took a chance on a 24 year old former 4th overall pick who had untapped upside, and the price was Emil Heineman (a 2nd round pick forward) and another 2nd round pick. It's like the Kakko trade in reverse.

It would be like if we traded Berard and a second for Marco Rossi. Yes! Sign me up!

Sure.

But that doesn't mean that's all they should be doing or just targeting young players. You're not going to build a winner doing that because you're going to ignore the superior talent that ends up shaking loose.

Plus they aren't only looking for a talent shift - Theirs a definite emphasis on a desire to flip the culture/play style. Some guys just aren't going to be fits and it'd be dumb to ignore the ones who are bc age (and this is an area where I think what they have coming will actually do most of the heavy lifting.)

 

[mas0764]

All this is very easy to say when you have no skin in the game and it's not your ass on the line. In theory I guess you're approach should work, but in the real world it's not that easy. Players bust, they get hurt. GMs usually don't survive perpetual rebuilds. I mean, what do the Devils have to show for their years of rebuilding? A second round appearance two years ago? And saying trade this old guys for these young guys is like fantasy land stuff. There's no magic formula here.

The Devils have a long term core that we should be envious of, to start with. They are much better equipped for years of competition at this point than we are.

Secondly, yes, it is hard for a GM to survive. That's why it's incumbent on good ownership to empower a GM to do what's right to build a winner. Sadly our owner isn't that willing.

Sure.

But that doesn't mean that's all they should be doing or just targeting young players. You're not going to build a winner doing that because you're going to ignore the superior talent that ends up shaking loose.

Plus they aren't only looking for a talent shift - Theirs a definite emphasis on a desire to flip the culture/play style. Some guys just aren't going to be fits and it'd be dumb to ignore the ones who are bc age (and this is an area where I think what they have coming will actually do most of the heavy lifting.)

It's mostly what they should be doing. You need cultural standard bearers, but they also can't be the guys you are counting on to be your best players. Who hear thinks that the idea of bringing in Miller is to be the elder statesman?

 

[will1066]

Crazy thing is he just played through it when he could barely skate, albeit with his abilities severely diminished.

Sounds like Chris.

 

[Kocur Dill]

But taking a chance on Bennett is the exact kind of thing the Rangers should be looking to do!

They took a chance on a 24 year old former 4th overall pick who had untapped upside, and the price was Emil Heineman (a 2nd round pick forward) and another 2nd round pick. It's like the Kakko trade in reverse.

It would be like if we traded Berard and a second for Marco Rossi. Yes! Sign me up!

Everyone poops on the Buch/Blais trade but I think what your saying was Drurys attempt to frontrun a player before his team caught on.

Yes, there were some off ice issues and the wishful thinking that Kakko would replace Buch.

But i think people forget how H O T Blais was his first month as a Ranger until he got Slewbanned and didnt seem to recover from that knee injury.

We definitely have an orgizational philosophy for overpaying for guys who are past their peak.

Finding McDonagh or Zibanejad befoer they exploded were key elements to having really good teams for a few runs. Difference was we traded outgoing vets. Trading years of youth potential for a gamble on another players potential who was a slow starter is a very bad look if it doesnt work.

 

[ReddestRum]

Man, we're never going to see Jones play again eh? I know we have brought in some D-men, but I swear ever since Jones made that media comment he's been ghosted in the lineup and there are players just getting here getting signed ahead of him.

 

[LOFIN]

Wild stuff in Vancouver, a shoe has to drop soon.

 

[mas0764]

Everyone poops on the Buch/Blais trade but I think what your saying was Drurys attempt to frontrun a player before his team caught on.

Yes, there were some off ice issues and the wishful thinking that Kakko would replace Buch.

But i think people forget how H O T Blais was his first month as a Ranger until he got Slewbanned and didnt seem to recover from that knee injury.

We definitely have an orgizational philosophy for overpaying for guys who are past their peak.

Finding McDonagh or Zibanejad befoer they exploded were key elements to having really good teams for a few runs. Difference was we traded outgoing vets. Trading years of youth potential for a gamble on another players potential who was a slow starter is a very bad look if it doesnt work.

I don't think Sammy Blais was ever a good bet to work out. That's where the "pro scouting has to be on point and that's hard," part comes in.

There's no salary cap for staff. Go get the best of the best of the best for your scouting department.

 

[bhamill]

Creating offence forcing the opposing team to defend helps win games.

As others have stated. The fact that line isnt scoring more is a statistical anomaly. They have the mother of all snake bites.

No. It doesn't. Keeping the other team from having a bunch of time in our O Zone would help, but they don't really do that either. Their fruitless chances don't come off of penning the opposition in or cycling down low, they come off rushes mostly.

And WHICH is the real statistical anomaly: That a line that can't score is generating chances on paper or that a line generating chances on paper isn't scoring? I could just as easily argue the anomaly is the number of chances for a line that can't finish. Remember Gauthier? TON of chances. Very little finish. Not an anomaly. Its been a year and a half, NOT scoring ain't the anomaly anymore...

At BEST lately you can say they aren't active LOSING us games... they aren't scoring but also aren't getting scored on (which shows how awful Mika's -24 on the half season truly is)... so we are basically paying 14.5 million for 2/3 of a third line between Mika and Kreids... since you want your 3rd line to be break even or a slight positive for you. That money could be much better spent in a way that would actually help the team win.

Anyway, I don't see either of us relenting on our takes here, so I'll leave it be.

 

[will1066]

And now, this year's Award for Best Off-Ice Drama. Your nominees are:

J.T. Miller and Elias Pettersson, Vancouver Canucks
Chris Drury and Jacob Trouba, New York Rangers
David Pastrnak and Brad Marchand, Boston Bruins

And the winner is...

J.T. Miller and Elias Petterson, Vancouver Canucks!

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Smith has been a top 6 winger his whole career and is currently performing as one for us. To say there's no difference between him and Vesey/Brodzinski is comical.

He's a top 6 winger on this team as we have nothing there, believing he is the answer to the top 6 is comical, it was a waste of assets to not upgrade a crucial spot.

 

[Kocur Dill]

I don't think Sammy Blais was ever a good bet to work out. That's where the "pro scouting has to be on point and that's hard," part comes in.

There's no salary cap for staff. Go get the best of the best of the best for your scouting department.

This i wholeheartedly agree with and have said previously.