Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XVI (Playoffs or Retool?)

[mrmovies779]

I think if we are getting Miller it would have happened already.im fine with that.Canucks probably won't get the type of package they would move him for.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The talent wasn't home grown but it kinda dwarfed what we have and it wasn't 32.

If you want to bring in more talent, being against getting a talented player at 30 cents on the dollar just because they're a bit older kind of seems ridiculous.

If its the only thing they do and they expect that move alone will be enough then yeah, kind of dumb to go 15% of the way and give up/expect that everything will get better while still keeping the bigger holes on the roster.

It can flip quickly with out getting stupid though, take a look at the Caps. The Rangers basically played with their dicks in the first round and swept them 9 months ago. They made some smart acquisitions via futures/paid money for UFAs and made a pretty risky play on a severely underperforming malcontent(PDL) while keeping their important pieces. They look pretty f***ing good now.

I'd also tread very, very, very carefully on Pettersson.

(Blue for 22-23, Red for 23-24 and black for 24-25)

He isn't struggling because because JT Miller is bullying him. He's struggling because at the ripe old age of 26 he's having trouble moving how he did at 24.

That worries me MUCH more than a player who is turning 32, especially because he's going to cost so much more. You aren't getting a bargain here.

 

[will1066]

You can't keep Kreider and be serious about winning.

Kreider was the reason we saw an ECF.

 

[McRanger92]

3 years of rebuilding that resulted in a sustainable Cup contender would be better than 7 more years of second round playoff exits.

3 more years of rebuilding guarantees absolutely nothing. You dont bail on an entire roster of players who have been in 2 ECFs the 3 years since the window opened, when 2-3 obvious players are the problem. You try to upgrade them! I can guarantee you they are never 'rebuilding' again. It brought nothing but headaches for the fanbase and owner.

 

[mrmovies779]

I would also love to snag Larkin from the Wings,but I realize that price will be too steep for Drury to pay

 

[mas0764]

Pettersson has supernatural talent.

I think he can give more. All this talent Vancouver has had since he was drafted and they never seem to get it right. Something stinks there.

I know something stinks here too in a lot of ways, but we tend to get a lot of reclamation guys who are already pros, as opposed to our own prospects.

Just a thought. Price is a whole nother factor but that would be the appeal for me.

Pettersson has warts, but it's like people have learned nothing.

Everyone is, like, surprised that all of a sudden the poor 5v5 play of a couple of 32 year olds and a 34 year old has gotten even worse and unproductive.

I know, let's get rid of one or two of the 32 year olds, and bring in another 32 year old. The problem is that OUR 32 year olds are lazy, not that father time finally came for them. The new 32 year old we bring in will surely last till he's 36 or 37 before falling off a cliff. We won't be back in this same situation at this time next year or anything, even though all his stats are down this very year already.

 

[McRanger92]

3 years of rebuilding that resulted in a sustainable Cup contender would be better than 7 more years of second round playoff exits.

This team isn't good enough. It wasn't good enough when Kreider and Mika were actually productive.

Bringing in another 32 year old is re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

You need Cup winning players and we have very few at the moment. Miller doesn't get us substantially closer. What's the rest of the plan?

The Rangers plan should be acquire assets and try again. Talk about spoiled and entitled, we half-assed it last time and it still resulted in 2 conference finals appearances. Maybe we should try going full measures this time and it can bring us a Cup? With our assets a proper rebuild could put us in that top tier.



It's a win, as others have said, merely because you get out of an unmoveable deal.

But if you can move Mika anyway, without bringing in Miller, I don't see the point.

So the 2 2nd rounders (at best) we get for Lindgren and Smith are worth tanking the rest of the season? Good way to get fired.

 

[mas0764]

3 more years of rebuilding guarantees absolutely nothing.

But continuing down this path does guarantee something: that we won't be any better.

You dont bail on an entire roster of players who have been in 2 ECFs the 3 years since the window opened, when 2-3 obvious players are the problem. You try to upgrade them! I can guarantee you they are never 'rebuilding' again. It brought nothing but headaches for the fanbase and owner.

Yeah, that's the problem. The owner is an idiot who doesn't understand how to build a winner.

You do bail on the roster. 2-3 players are the problem? The 2-3 players are half your top 6. We don't have a competent top 6 without those problem players.

If you don't have those 3-4 top tier players you have nothing (everyone's bottom sixes are just different shades of grey). And we don't have them. The ones who are supposed to be carrying the water are all at the end of the line.

So the 2 2nd rounders (at best) we get for Lindgren and Smith are worth tanking the rest of the season? Good way to get fired.

At some point flexibility is worth more than just continuing to get bounced from the playoffs.

 

[McRanger92]

But continuing down this path does guarantee something: that we won't be any better.


Yeah, that's the problem. The owner is an idiot who doesn't understand how to build a winner.

You do bail on the roster. 2-3 players are the problem? The 2-3 players are half your top 6. We don't have a competent top 6 without those problem players.


At some point flexibility is worth more than just continuing to get bounced from the playoffs.

We are already a better team now than we were in December, so your first point is just your pessimistic opinion. And you know how you replace 2 players in your top 6? You trade for one (JT) and promote one (Perreault, Othmann).

We can put our "Cap Flexibility" banner next to our "Regular Season Champs" one.

 

[mas0764]

Kreider was the reason we saw an ECF.

And?

He's toast now.

You can't keep him.

We are already a better team now than we were in December, so your first point is just your pessimistic opinion.

Being a better team than the "worst in the league team," we were in December is irrelevant. We aren't a better team than the one that has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't good enough to get over the hump.

And you know how you replace 2 players in your top 6? You trade for one (JT) and promote one (Perreault, Othmann).

Good, still need 2 more or so. And by time we get them Miller will be heavily declined, so actually 3.

We can put our "Cap Flexibility" banner next to our "Regular Season Champs" one.

That's how you get a Stanley Cup Champs banner.

 

[zlev]

We're not giving up big assets for JT and Pettersson's current team has buyer's remorse on his contract 6 months in. 11.6 million. People really want to replace Panarin with another Panarin because he's 26 and Swedish.

replace 33 year old Panarin with a 26 year old Panarin (that also plays elite defense at center)? yes please

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

And?

He's toast now.

You can't keep him.



Being a better team than the "worst in the league team," we were in December is irrelevant. We aren't a better team than the one that has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't good enough to get over the hump.


Good, still need 2 more or so. And by time we get them Miller will be heavily declined.


That's how you get a Stanley Cup Champs banner.

*looks at last 2 winners*

Yeahhhhhhhh

 

[Boris Zubov]

Meanwhile, he'll shit on Kreider who I'm convinced is Adam Graves in a mask.

Back trouble at 33!! He's Adam Graves.

Graves had back trouble at 27.

 

[Machinehead]

*looks at last 2 winners*

Yeahhhhhhhh

I mean, Florida has a 2nd overall playing 1C.

 

[Machinehead]

Graves had back trouble at 27.

That's true.

 

[mas0764]

If you want to bring in more talent, being against getting a talented player at 30 cents on the dollar just because they're a bit older kind of seems ridiculous.

If its the only thing they do and they expect that move alone will be enough then yeah, kind of dumb to go 15% of the way and give up/expect that everything will get better while still keeping the bigger holes on the roster.

It can flip quickly with out getting stupid though, take a look at the Caps. The Rangers basically played with their dicks in the first round and swept them 9 months ago. They made some smart acquisitions via futures/paid money for UFAs and made a pretty risky play on a severely underperforming malcontent(PDL) while keeping their important pieces. They look pretty f***ing good now.

There are scenarios where it might make sense to say that it's worth the price to bring in a 32 year old because you want 2-3 good runs out of him by adding him to a core that's close to being able to win it all.

Ours isn't. Ours is essentially spent.

"Bringing in more talent," in a scattershot approach is pointless. You need to build a core that can play together, peak together, be affordable at the same time, and congeal to win a Cup or Cups. It's a hard needle to thread, but I don't see any semblance of an executable plan in NYC right now.

The Caps look ok right now but come get me if they win the Cup. They don't look like a real threat to win it all to me.

*looks at last 2 winners*

Yeahhhhhhhh

Again, Florida had a core of 4-5 elite 26-28 year olds. And they didn't acquire all those guys at age 28, they got them at younger ages and then they grew to a Cup winning core by time they were 26, 27, 28.

We passed that mile marker on the highway some time ago.

 

[McRanger92]

And?

He's toast now.

You can't keep him.



Being a better team than the "worst in the league team," we were in December is irrelevant. We aren't a better team than the one that has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't good enough to get over the hump.


Good, still need 2 more or so. And by time we get them Miller will be heavily declined.


That's how you get a Stanley Cup Champs banner.

This is so disingenuous when 3 of the last 5 Cup winners were over the cap in the playoffs lol

 

[will1066]

But continuing down this path does guarantee something: that we won't be any better.


Yeah, that's the problem. The owner is an idiot who doesn't understand how to build a winner.

You do bail on the roster. 2-3 players are the problem? The 2-3 players are half your top 6. We don't have a competent top 6 without those problem players.

If you don't have those 3-4 top tier players you have nothing (everyone's bottom sixes are just different shades of grey). And we don't have them. The ones who are supposed to be carrying the water are all at the end of the line.


At some point flexibility is worth more than just continuing to get bounced from the playoffs.

Dolan doesn't have to time to build a winner from the ground up. MSG is a publicly traded company and he can't waste a few years tanking revenues, and the Rangers are the second-richest franchise, behind the Maple Leafs. Dolan is also nearly 70, and I"m sure he wants to see a championship in his lifetime. This is NYC. You don't think he gets ridiculed for a losing team by his corporate-titan peers when he goes to his private clubs?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

When does a two way 40-50 point player sign in the offseason for league minimum? Here is a list of forwards age 28 or older (so guaranteed they signed as a UFA) that signed for 1M or less this offseason sorted by points scored:

1. Eric Robison (24 pts) - very random considering his career high is 27 and he had 10 in 47 games last year
2. JVR (21) - everyone knows who he is and he's bad defensively
3. Connor Brown (19) - 12 points last year
4. Tanner Pearson (19) - 13 points last year in 54 games coming off a bunch of injuries

Nobody else over 15 points. Most of the guys who sign for that cheap sign for that cheap for a reason. They're bad.

I mean we needed a top 6 winger and traded assets away for a bottom 6 winger. There's really not much difference between Smith, Vesey, Brodzinksi, etc other than opportunity. If you took those assets and added to them we'd have a top 6 winger, especially given his cap hit of almost 4 mill, it made zero sense. We could have just signed David Perron to a 2 year deal without the assets.

 

[McRanger92]

There are scenarios where it might make sense to say that it's worth the price to bring in a 32 year old because you want 2-3 good runs out of him by adding him to a core that's close to being able to win it all.

Ours isn't. Ours is essentially spent.

"Bringing in more talent," in a scattershot approach is pointless. You need to build a core that can play together, peak together, be affordable at the same time, and congeal to win a Cup or Cups. It's a hard needle to thread, but I don't see any semblance of an executable plan in NYC right now.

The Caps look ok right now but come get me if they win the Cup. They don't look like a real threat to win it all to me.



Again, Florida had a core of 4-5 elite 26-28 year olds.

We passed that mile marker on the highway some time ago.

Adam Fox: 26
Alexis Lafreniere: 23
Will Cuylle: 22
Filip Chytil: 25
Braden Schneider: 23
K'Andre Miller: 24

By your logic we should be rebuilding before our young core even reaches that 26-28 age range. If you want to rebuild you have to trade Igor, Lafreniere and Fox who are all signed long term for big numbers. I dont think they are going to be down with purposeful losing in the near future.

 

[mas0764]

Dolan doesn't have to time to build a winner from the ground up. MSG is a publicly traded company and he can't waste a few years tanking revenues, and the Rangers are the second-richest franchise, behind the Maple Leafs. Dolan is also nearly 70, and I"m sure he wants to see a championship in his lifetime. This is NYC. You don't think he gets ridiculed for a losing team by his corporate-titan peers when he goes to his private clubs?

His chance at seeing a Cup in his lifetime would be to stop wasting time and immediately commit to doing it the right way, which will take a few years.

Doing what he's been doing for the past few decades will just result in more years without a Cup.

He either is too dumb to know how to do it right, or, what he has been providing us is all he wants: Playoff teams only, not Cup winners.

 

[McRanger92]

I mean we needed a top 6 winger and traded assets away for a bottom 6 winger. There's really not much difference between Smith, Vesey, Brodzinksi, etc other than opportunity. If you took those assets and added to them we'd have a top 6 winger, especially given his cap hit of almost 4 mill, it made zero sense. We could have just signed David Perron to a 2 year deal without the assets.

Smith has been a top 6 winger his whole career and is currently performing as one for us. To say there's no difference between him and Vesey/Brodzinski is comical.

 

[Siddi]

Offense that GOES IN THE NET wins games. Not fancy stat chances...
AGAIN, Mika has 1 5v5 point in the last 10 or 11 games... I'm already HAVING a conversation about what he has been doing lately... and it's NOT good.

Again, yes, its more encouraging that the line is getting chances than if they weren't, but they are NOT contributing to wins. That and five bucks will get you a cup of Starbucks... The bottom line is they are generating VERY LITTLE offense that wins games... also known as actually scoring.

The numbers don't lie, and it's right in front of our faces.

Creating offence forcing the opposing team to defend helps win games.

As others have stated. The fact that line isnt scoring more is a statistical anomaly. They have the mother of all snake bites.

 

[mas0764]

Adam Fox: 26
Alexis Lafreniere: 23
Will Cuylle: 22
Filip Chytil: 25
Braden Schneider: 23
K'Andre Miller: 24

By your logic we should be rebuilding before our young core even reaches that 26-28 age range. If you want to rebuild you have to trade Igor, Lafreniere and Fox who are all signed long term for big numbers. I dont think they are going to be down with purposeful losing in the near future.

Igor should have been traded.

Cuylle, Lafreniere, Schneider, they are all young enough. We need 2-3 years or so to supplement these guys, they'd be right at 26, 27, 28 if we do this right.

Fox will be aging but he's so good he's probably still in his late prime.

Chytil, who the hell knows with that guy anymore? It's probably time to cut bait. He can't stay healthy and when he does he's a 40 point player.

I like the guy and he can stay but if he also has to be traded so be it. But he should be traded for a new shot at a young player and not an old one.

Again, if you want to tell me that Miller is coming in to be a shepherd, fine, but I'd only sign up for that if the plan is to have him be a custodian here while we go back to getting the young talent we need. There's something for saying you have to have a veteran presence.

But if the idea is to try to swap in Miller for Mika and then continue to win with the rest of this core, that's not gonna work.

If you trade Mika, Panarin, Kreider, Smith, Lindgren, Trocheck, maybe flip Chytil in a hockey trade for a young defenseman, you'll be bad enough and have enough assets and cap space that you have some HOPE that you'll be able to trade for a 1C and then also find a Bennett and Tkachuk within 3 years, in trades, reclamation projects, and free agency. If you keep going down the path you are going, forget it, you have already seen the best you'll see from this core and it's just getting worse and not better. Pinning your hopes on Miller turning it around is foolish.

 

[will1066]

His chance at seeing a Cup in his lifetime would be to stop wasting time and immediately commit to doing it the right way, which will take a few years.

Doing what he's been doing for the past few decades will just result in more years without a Cup.

He either is too dumb to know how to do it right, or, what he has been providing us is all he wants: Playoff teams only, not Cup winners.

Where would the money come in from during these few years? Corporate ticket holders, everyone but the die hards would cancel their plans. They won't want to see a bunch of kids on the ice while they entertain clients and even if they are there for the hockey. They'll be dying to get that Perreault jersey, right, at the merch shop.