Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XLII

[Heckler81]

Kreider’s contract extension will be an eyesore. 6 years and $37M to $42M. Are you kidding me?

I rather have Panarin at 11m over Kreider at 6-7m a year. On top of that, I would rather have Panarin and a 1st round pick over Kreider while including the terms I just mentioned.

 

[RGY]

By this logic we absolutely have the wrong coach and we should get rid of not only Kreider but even more importantly Zibanejad. We should rehire Gernander not as the Wolfpack coach but as the Rangers coach. Because for one thing it's not as easy for a team to guarantee itself a top 5 pick as some would think. The only guarantee is if you are one of the worst two teams in the league. So having a coach that pushes his team or a legit 1C are things you absolutely don't need if that's what you have in mind.

And it's not important bringing up kids like Chytil, Andersson or even Kakko in an environment where they have a chance to win on any given night or even important if Henrik absolutlely loses it one night after the team's been bombed for the umpteenth time. Not even important that the paying customers are asked to pay for and watch a ****show where a dispirited team goes through the minimum it takes to try to win. Because in such a situation the last thing you need is any kind of accountability--the only thing that's important is getting another lottery pick next year.

To be honest if we're doing that I'd leave Kakko over in Finland for another year and I would have left Kravtsov in the KHL.

As far the opposition goes to signing Panarin, i feel like that camp’s mindset is split.

You have some that don’t want to sign him because of the timing coupled with the dollar and term.

And then there are some that dont want to sign him because signing him hurts the teams chances of being a bottom 3 or bottom 5 team so that they have a better chance (but no guarantee) that they land the top pick. And that same group just uses the other group’s factors about timing/dollar-term as part of their excuse, but the reality is its all about tanking.

I can at least understand the former’s position. That latter I cannot get on board with. I am completely against tanking. Put a competitive team on the ice and let the chips fall where they may. Look what happened this year. We finished 6 from the bottom and somehow landed the #2 pick. Its a complete crapshoot.

How many 1st round picks, and just prospects overall, do we need to accumulate before we start transitioning and building around them? Some teams “rebuild” and only get like 4-5 1st round picks in 3 drafts. We are going to have 7 1st rounders alone in 3 drafts...

 

[eco's bones]

As far the opposition goes to signing Panarin, i feel like that camp’s mindset is split.

You have some that don’t want to sign him because of the timing coupled with the dollar and term.

And then there are some that dont want to sign him because signing him hurts the teams chances of being a bottom 3 or bottom 5 team so that they have a better chance (but no guarantee) that they land the top pick. And that same group just uses the other group’s factors about timing/dollar-term as part of their excuse, but the reality is its all about tanking.

I can at least understand the former’s position. That latter I cannot get on board with. I am completely against tanking. Put a competitive team on the ice and let the chips fall where they may. Look what happened this year. We finished 6 from the bottom and somehow landed the #2 pick. Its a complete crapshoot.

How many 1st round picks, and just prospects overall, do we need to accumulate before we start transitioning and building around them? Some teams “rebuild” and only get like 4-5 1st round picks in 3 drafts. We are going to have 7 1st rounders alone in 3 drafts...

Even if we set our sights on signing Panarin there's a very good chance we won't get him. Like you though I'm not into the tanking idea. A team should always be taking steps towards getting better--the idea that you're going to do it by losing as much as possible is not the right way. What we're doing isn't only about getting draft picks--it's also about creating an environment where those younger players can develop and thrive and learning how to win is very important for that to happen.

Again there's no point to bringing over Kakko or Kravtsov or even signing Fox this year if the aim is to throw them into a situation where the goal is to lose as much as possible. There's no point having Quinn as your coach either. He doesn't like to lose. The idea with Panarin is to give the Rangers multiple offensive threats and to help these young kids to get better quicker. Panarin is a great puck distributor. He plays well with others and we're not going to find a player of his caliber two years from now--not unless we're willing to trade assets and they'll be young assets. But yeah Panarin can probably find better situations than ours is now.

 

[NYR Viper]

I really think Shattenkirk is a moveable contract. They may have to retain or take something substantial back but he has a long enough track record and he finished the season on a much better note than he started after coming back from major knee surgery. He’s not 35. I could see a few teams being interested

 

[NYR Viper]

Colin Miller was a healthy scratch multiple times this season in Vegas. Shattenkirk knows Stastny and Pacioretty. Perhaps they’d put in a good word for Shattenkirk with management. Karlsson isn’t going to Vegas. Once they miss out on him, they may move to other options.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

Colin Miller was a healthy scratch multiple times this season in Vegas. Shattenkirk knows Stastny and Pacioretty. Perhaps they’d put in a good word for Shattenkirk with management. Karlsson isn’t going to Vegas. Once they miss out on him, they may move to other options.

What are they giving us and what are we doing with that newfound space? Myers? EK65? Trading for Trouba/Subban?

 

[RGY]

What are they giving us and what are we doing with that newfound space? Myers? EK65? Trading for Trouba/Subban?

If you move Shattenkirk and get Colin Miller back that is a plus.

Move Vesey and possibly Namestnikov too.

I would be fine with staying put at 20 if we can get Seider there OR only move up a few spots to get him, really like his upside.

I know it is unpopular but I would re-sign Kreider if it is a 6 year x $6.25 million. That would be good value for him. It is not an overpayment. $6.25 million cap hit isn't what it once was 3 years ago. That cap will continue to rise. The league is in a good place. They are adding Seattle in 2 years.

I would still sign Panarin at 7 x $10.5-$11.

Lines next year if we draft Kakko:

Kreider-Zibanejad-Kakko
Panarin-Chytil-Buchnevich
Lemieux-Howden-Kravtsov
Strome-Lias-Fast
Smith, Vesey/Nams

Skjei-DeAngelo
Staal-Miller
Hajek-Fox
Vet UFA

Hank
GG/Shesty

Lindgren knocking on the door. Lettieri, Fogarty, Boo as your emergency call ups.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

What are they giving us and what are we doing with that newfound space? Myers? EK65? Trading for Trouba/Subban?

Why do we HAVE to do anything with that cap space?

 

[Trxjw]

Vegas needs to clear cap. They're probably not taking Shattenkirk unless it's at 50% retention and they're dumping someone on us in addition to Miller.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

Why do we HAVE to do anything with that cap space?

Because we are not going to be tanking and there are great players available in Free Agency this year. Also there are assets to be had by taking on cap dumps. Whichever way management decides to go works just fine, but at this point in the rebuild it doesn't seem like Gorton and Co want to sit at the cap floor or in the middle of it and just coast along for another season. Obviously we're not trying to build up for a run next year, but the team doesn't seem to be gearing towards sucking again.

 

[Beacon]

By this logic we absolutely have the wrong coach and we should get rid of not only Kreider but even more importantly Zibanejad. We should rehire Gernander not as the Wolfpack coach but as the Rangers coach...

In both cases, either trading Zibanejad or signing Panarin, you're doing artificial things.

The idea that Gorton has followed so far is to get young assets with long term potential for those without a long term future here. Zibanejad is a young player on a great contract. He's part of the future. He can lead our youth for another decade, and when he does require a UFA contract, the team will hopefully be contending, so the best (early) years of his UFA contract won't be wasted on a rebuilding team.

Panarin and Kreider will be on UFA deals and most likely will live up to their money (if ever) early on when the only thing it will achieve is to drop us from #2-5 to #10-14.

Then, when Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov, K'Andre, etc enter their prime 4-5+ years from now, the contracts of Panarin and Kreider will be anchors preventing us from signing young(er) UFAs at that point or preventing us from re-signing our own guys.

You don't throw money at star UFAs when the most talented guys on your team are 18-20.

 

[Beacon]

So you want throw away an entire season for the hopes of having better odds for the first pick? On top of that, you need to hope that the ping pong balls fall your way.

Too much uncertainty....

Maybe it is easy for you to say yes to that. I know I am with a bunch of other people that go to 20+ games every year. Who wants to spend a lot of money on a tanking team?

We are not rebuilding, we are retooling.

Sign Panarin and trade Kreider for a 2020 1st. We upgrade team and get more draft capital. Sounds like a win/win.

Typical Dark Ages reasoning: "but but but ticket sales!" As if MSG will ever have a hard time selling tickets.

Panarin is just the next in the line of Gretzky, Fleury, Esposito, etc., all of whom had better careers than Panarin, and could be paid without worrying about then-nonexistent salary cap.

If rebuilding by signing/trading for expensive vets didn't work our without a salary cap, how can it work with the cap?

 

[SA16]

Typical Dark Ages reasoning: "but but but ticket sales!" As if MSG will ever have a hard time selling tickets.

Panarin is just the next in the line of Gretzky, Fleury, Esposito, etc., all of whom had better careers than Panarin, and could be paid without worrying about then-nonexistent salary cap.

If rebuilding by signing/trading for expensive vets didn't work our without a salary cap, how can it work with the cap?

All of those guys were great as Rangers so how is it their fault the team didn't perform well with them?

 

[Leetch3]

for me the debate on panarin really comes down to what is the plan to fix the blueline...

if the plan is to let the contracts of staal, smith and shattenkirk run out and wait for the kids to develop and miller/lundqvist to arrive (which might be the smart move) then I can't justify signing panarin cause that plan to rebuild the blueline is gonna take 3-4 years at which point you've wasted 1/2 of panarin's contract and odds are he won't still be as good for all 7 years cause that rarely happens. so the number of good years on a good team you are getting just isn't worth it

but if you can move out guys and make a deal to bring in a 25-26 year old that can improve the blueline immediately and you are then talking about hopefully only wasting 1 or 2 years of panarin's deal than its a different story

and no i'm not suggesting that trading for trouba makes us a contender in 1 year...but i do think that if you added a 25-26 year old top 4 RHD to go only with skjei and the kids that are nhl ready you can fairly quickly reform that blueline into something respectable enough that we can start looking toward the next phase of the rebuild. of course i'm not factoring in the cost to get that D and thats a whole other debate...but i need a path to fixing the blueline before i'm investing that kind of $$ into panarin

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Typical Dark Ages reasoning: "but but but ticket sales!" As if MSG will ever have a hard time selling tickets.

Panarin is just the next in the line of Gretzky, Fleury, Esposito, etc., all of whom had better careers than Panarin, and could be paid without worrying about then-nonexistent salary cap.

If rebuilding by signing/trading for expensive vets didn't work our without a salary cap, how can it work with the cap?

They were struggling to sell out this season actually

 

[DanielBrassard]

In both cases, either trading Zibanejad or signing Panarin, you're doing artificial things.

The idea that Gorton has followed so far is to get young assets with long term potential for those without a long term future here. Zibanejad is a young player on a great contract. He's part of the future. He can lead our youth for another decade, and when he does require a UFA contract, the team will hopefully be contending, so the best (early) years of his UFA contract won't be wasted on a rebuilding team.

Panarin and Kreider will be on UFA deals and most likely will live up to their money (if ever) early on when the only thing it will achieve is to drop us from #2-5 to #10-14.

Then, when Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov, K'Andre, etc enter their prime 4-5+ years from now, the contracts of Panarin and Kreider will be anchors preventing us from signing young(er) UFAs at that point or preventing us from re-signing our own guys.

You don't throw money at star UFAs when the most talented guys on your team are 18-20.

Gorton did it in Boston with Chara and Savard. Worked out for them.

 

[Beacon]

All of those guys were great as Rangers so how is it their fault the team didn't perform well with them?

Exactly my point. Gretzky, Fleury, Esposito, etc did well, but because they came at a wrong time, it was wasted money to pay them, and the only thing it achieved is a lower draft pick.

Messier, on the other hand, was acquired as Leetch, Richter, Amonte, etc were entering their prime, while Zubov, Kovalev and Weight were already drafted and would be the second wave of star youth to hit. That was the right time to throw money at stars, which is why it worked.

Signing Panarin today is like signing Gretzky for a bad team, not like getting Messier for an up-and-coming team because the Rangers have nothing approaching Leetch, Zubov, Graves, Gartner, Weight, Amonte, Kovalev, Richter, and what potential star talent they have is 18 or 19 years old today.

 

[True Blue]

As far the opposition goes to signing Panarin, i feel like that camp’s mindset is split.

You have some that don’t want to sign him because of the timing coupled with the dollar and term.

And then there are some that dont want to sign him because signing him hurts the teams chances of being a bottom 3 or bottom 5 team so that they have a better chance (but no guarantee) that they land the top pick. And that same group just uses the other group’s factors about timing/dollar-term as part of their excuse, but the reality is its all about tanking.

I think, and am not speaking for everyone, most of the anti-Panarin camp (myself being one) comes down to the former and not the latter. A Panrin when the Rangers are truly ready to compete makes all the sense in the world. A Panarin right now would play his prime years with a team that is not truly ready to compete. And when they are, the team would find themselves saddled with a very expensive contract that has NTC/NMC tied into a player who is no longer the player that he was in his prime.

 

[True Blue]

I really think Shattenkirk is a moveable contract. They may have to retain or take something substantial back but he has a long enough track record and he finished the season on a much better note than he started after coming back from major knee surgery. He’s not 35. I could see a few teams being interested

I honestly feel that the board wants to feel this way about Shattenkirk, but the reality is much starker.

 

[True Blue]

Because we are not going to be tanking and there are great players available in Free Agency this year.

The two things are mutually exclusive of each other. Yes, I agree that there is no tank. Not in the DNA of the team GM or coach. That said, that does not change the fact that despite not setting out to loose that Gorton changes the game plan and suddenly dives into the UFA pool. At least not the tea leaves as I am reading them.

 

[True Blue]

but i need a path to fixing the blueline before i'm investing that kind of $$ into panarin

I am squarely in the anti-Panrin camp, but that is about as sound a logic as it gets to a halfway point. Nice post, my friend.

 

[Leetch3]

Gorton did it in Boston with Chara and Savard. Worked out for them.

the bruins weren't that young though..05-06, bergeron was only 20. but most of the team was over 25 with several guys well into their 30s. they weren't exactly a rebuilding team filled with teens

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

I really hope Henrik is open to a move. I'd hate to lose Georgiev for a declining Henrik.

 

[DanielBrassard]

the bruins weren't that young though..05-06, bergeron was only 20. but most of the team was over 25 with several guys well into their 30s. they weren't exactly a rebuilding team filled with teens

But their best players or the players who became their best were. Some of them like March and, Krejci, and Lucic weren't even in the NHL yet. Bergeron was 20, Kessel was 19. I think the Rangers are even further along because some of their better players are in their primes and guys like Chytil, Howden, and even Andersson already have NHL experience and are going into their d+3 seasons.

 

[True Blue]

But their best players or the players who became their best were. Some of them like March and, Krejci, and Lucic weren't even in the NHL yet. Bergeron was 20, Kessel was 19. I think the Rangers are even further along because some of their better players are in their primes and guys like Chytil, Howden, and even Andersson already have NHL experience and are going into their d+3 seasons.

Two of the Rangers players are in their prime (Zbad & Kreider). And none of Chytil, Howden, and Andersson are of an age where anyone can tell anything about them concretely