Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XL

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How much worse would this team really be without guys like kreider, shattenkirk, vesey anyway? The Rangers were competitive most nights last season.

Not against trading any of those guys to acquire young talent or picks.

So far, the more vets we move the better we becomes. ;)

Seriously though, if we want to tank for real we should trade for Kovalchuk and sign some older UFAs. Those guys knows the importance of a strong stat and will play G1-3 of the season like its the cup finals and then we they see that its not enough they will spend all their time at the golf course and not care one bit about the season. Most teams finishing below us in the standings were vet teams like LA, ANA and co.
 
So exactly when do you start rebuilding?

You start where we were in 2017. It was obvious we were headed down. Instead of clutching at straws, embrace it. Go all in. Write that letter.

Burke Henry? C’mon. He was never considered a first pair prospect. Not even close. I saw him play extensively in the AHL and had no expectations for him whatsoever.

In Hartford he was bad. I was talking about expectations in his D+1 or even D+2 seasons when he had over ppg as a two-way defenseman. He didn't transition well to the pros. But he had pretty stats in the Juniors.
 
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Young players can be leaders, we don’t know the personalities in the locker room. Just because a guy has 10 years in the league doesn’t make him more of a leader than a 21 year old with 2 years.

I’m not advocating trading everyone over 25, just players that don’t fit long term and have decent enough value to get something worthwhile back.
 
Maybe I am overly optimistic, but it seems like the 22 might easily become 20 and 19 isn’t even that remote. Dallas is doing well against STL. CBJ just have a freak of a roster, top grinders like Foligno and Jenner and go, top skilled guys in Panarin, Cam A, Duchene, young complete studs like Seth Jones and PLD, and so forth and so forth and so forth. I can’t see how Boston can challenge them. The Canes are up 2-0. And I wouldn’t count out Colorado either. SJ will mix highs and lows, but sure, I put my money on SJ. CBJ are my cup favorites.
 
How much worse would this team really be without guys like kreider, shattenkirk, vesey anyway? The Rangers were competitive most nights last season.

Not against trading any of those guys to acquire young talent or picks.
Only Kreider has any significant value.

As to your rhetorical question, they'd look really, really bad. For example, Staal is generally pretty bad but the few games he was out this year the D was a complete tire fire with him not taking his matchup minutes. There's a ripple effect with these things.
 
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Beacon and Bob- We were run like EDM is now. Just clueless. Perfect word for it.

We didn’t trap, and we didn’t even remotely had the organized offensive breakout schemes as Detroit had. We just created little and gave up many prime chances against. Lost pucks in the neutral zone and faced a ton of counter attacks.

So what did we do? Hm, we are getting 1-2 odd man rushes and give up 10-12 per game (they used to count odd man rushes much more often back then, pretty good number to have). Yeah we need speed, we aren’t fast enough to get odd man rushes. Let’s go out and target Russ Courtnall.

It — was — really at that level. It’s like EDM today, we must get someone that can keep up with McDavid. You hear some kids at this place talk in those lines, like it was possible to get two super fast guys on the ice at the same time that could rush up the ice the two of them and score goals. Not sure if I ever seen a play like that work. Someone like Benn would be perfect for McDavid. They cannot out Pulju in a position to succeed, so what do you do? Hang on to him for 4 years because at each time his value can only go up, supposedly. Instead in real life he has a steady curve heading in one direction and one direction only...
 
They traded for Jagr and signed Straka and Nylander. That’s not what a rebuilding team should have done.

Our prospect pool is definitely much better now because Gorton did a much better job acquiring assets for veterans.

If we start signing players in free agency in hopes that we improve our team, that there is a sign of attempting to accelerate the rebuild. I hope Gorton avoids that. For now anyway.

Get us one more top-5 pick next year. Evaluate our prospects progression, then start zeroing in a guys via free agency and trades.

If the Rangers sign no free agents they're still very likely to be a better team next year than they were this year. You can expect improvement out of kids like Chytil, Howden, DeAngelo, Buchnevich maybe even Pionk. Quinn ain't tied to Henrik like he was last year. He knows the team better and if Georgiev plays better than Henrik he'll play him more. As well I would expect that Kakko is going to come right in and be an important player right off the bat. Kravtsov could be a big deal too. Lemieux will be better. The coaching staff isn't starting from scratch this year either. They have a lot better idea of who can do what and they'll make fewer mistakes.

As well the Rangers were competitive in most of their losses. They didn't get blown out very often. Most games they lost by one goal--sometimes two because of an empty netter. You can expect a team like that to improve.

So this idea that we're going to be a bottom 5 team and win the lottery all over again---it's possible that if we don't make the playoffs we'll win one of the lotteries again but expecting it to happen is setting yourself up for disappointment because it's a lot more probable that it won't happen.

Here's the thing about zeroing in on guys via free agency. You can zero in on anybody but letting Panarin pass this year and then zeroing in on someone that's kind of good next year because now all of sudden it's okay is kind of f***ed up. Anyone that's any good is going to get paid and they're going to get term. The great likelihood is we're not going to see anyone nearly as good as a 27 year old Panarin next year or the year after and as far as trades go once we get rid of Kreider there ain't a whole lot left as far as vets that is going to get you anything worthwhile. Potential trading partners anyway will be more interested in our young.
 
If the Rangers sign no free agents they're still very likely to be a better team next year than they were this year. You can expect improvement out of kids like Chytil, Howden, DeAngelo, Buchnevich maybe even Pionk. Quinn ain't tied to Henrik like he was last year. He knows the team better and if Georgiev plays better than Henrik he'll play him more. As well I would expect that Kakko is going to come right in and be an important player right off the bat. Kravtsov could be a big deal too. Lemieux will be better. The coaching staff isn't starting from scratch this year either. They have a lot better idea of who can do what and they'll make fewer mistakes.

As well the Rangers were competitive in most of their losses. They didn't get blown out very often. Most games they lost by one goal--sometimes two because of an empty netter. You can expect a team like that to improve.

So this idea that we're going to be a bottom 5 team and win the lottery all over again---it's possible that if we don't make the playoffs we'll win one of the lotteries again but expecting it to happen is setting yourself up for disappointment because it's a lot more probable that it won't happen.

Here's the thing about zeroing in on guys via free agency. You can zero in on anybody but letting Panarin pass this year and then zeroing in on someone that's kind of good next year because now all of sudden it's okay is kind of ****ed up. Anyone that's any good is going to get paid and they're going to get term. The great likelihood is we're not going to see anyone nearly as good as a 27 year old Panarin next year or the year after and as far as trades go once we get rid of Kreider there ain't a whole lot left as far as vets that is going to get you anything worthwhile. Potential trading partners anyway will be more interested in our young.

If Kreider is moved it becomes almost imperative to sign Panarin so I completely agree with above.

But building on this thought process, if Panarin decides to go with FL then Chris should be resigned. So I think it’s unlikely that Kreider is moved ahead / during the draft for picks. Due to this timing if Panarin does come onboard, Gorton should be working now on a type of trade where A grade close prospect is the main piece to be the return for Kreider with extension in place.
 
If Kreider is moved it becomes almost imperative to sign Panarin so I completely agree with above.

But building on this thought process, if Panarin decides to go with FL then Chris should be resigned. So I think it’s unlikely that Kreider is moved ahead / during the draft for picks. Due to this timing if Panarin does come onboard, Gorton should be working now on a type of trade where A grade close prospect is the main piece to be the return for Kreider with extension in place.

one has nothing to do with the other imo...if anything moving kreider is a reason to not bother signing panarin cause we'll be that much worse so why bother
 
one has nothing to do with the other imo...if anything moving kreider is a reason to not bother signing panarin cause we'll be that much worse so why bother

Why bother? Because outside of Zibanejad, likely Buchnevich and maybe Strome there would be no one to play on top2 lines. Cannot throw two rookies or teenagers in these roles and HOPE it works out.
 
If Kreider is moved it becomes almost imperative to sign Panarin so I completely agree with above.

But building on this thought process, if Panarin decides to go with FL then Chris should be resigned. So I think it’s unlikely that Kreider is moved ahead / during the draft for picks. Due to this timing if Panarin does come onboard, Gorton should be working now on a type of trade where A grade close prospect is the main piece to be the return for Kreider with extension in place.

You're thinking what I'm thinking. Try to keep Kreider if we can't get Panarin. That depends a bit on Chris too--I don't want to overpay him. If he wants way too much I'd look to move him anyway.

But anyway we've done a lot of restocking of the the cupboard. We'll do more this year and next even if we don't bring in more draft picks. These kids have to have people to mentor them. If Kakko's are guy I want him playing with somebody good. I want Kravtsov playing with somebody good. Mika can only be spread around so far.

If we need to we can move Kreider after the draft and after Panarin's decided--target a 1st + for next year's draft. I'm thinking there will be teams relieved that they can still get Kreider without giving up their 1st this year and if next year is a better draft like some seem to think then that's okay too.
 
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Here’s something to keep in mind re: Kreider/Panarin...it’s very possible the Rangers (or another team) trade a draft pick to Columbus for his negotiating rights prior to the entry draft. If the BJs don't think they can sign him, it’s likely they will try to recover some draft capital. That could take all of the what if out of the equation.

And yes, I would trade a 4th for the right to talk to Panarin before the draft.
 
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Why bother? Because outside of Zibanejad, likely Buchnevich and maybe Strome there would be no one to play on top2 lines. Cannot throw two rookies or teenagers in these roles and HOPE it works out.

playing teenage rookies and signing a guy for 7 years $11+ mil aren't the only 2 options. and if we are worried about things 'working out' next year we won't trade kreider.
 
So exactly when do you start rebuilding? Should Nashville rebuild now? Pittsburgh? What about those perpetual rebuilding teams in Buffalo and Florida?

Your idea of rebuilding seems to come directly from baseball. Scrape the house and start over that strategy is a time tested toboggan to hell. Yeah, it worked for the Cubs. Not so good for many, many others.

And Burke Henry? C’mon. He was never considered a first pair prospect. Not even close. I saw him play extensively in the AHL and had no expectations for him whatsoever.
Developing the environment for these kids to grow in is just as important as identifying the prospects themselves- that's where guys like Mika, Buch, etc. become vital. Besides, using examples from 20 years ago to explain how the NHL today is pointless and makes no sense. Training is different, systems are different, and these kids coming in now are primed to be competitive right away. The peak curve used to start in age 25-26, but it's suddenly shifting to ~22-23. Look at the top players in the NHL: with many of the best players you've known what they'll be by D+3. Yes, some are still aging on the prior curve, but using that as the fixed rule to today's game is total folly. Teams need cheap contributors. If they can step into top roles, even better.
 
Young players can be leaders, we don’t know the personalities in the locker room. Just because a guy has 10 years in the league doesn’t make him more of a leader than a 21 year old with 2 years.

I’m not advocating trading everyone over 25, just players that don’t fit long term and have decent enough value to get something worthwhile back.
Great point, just look at the last 10-15 years where we saw teenagers named captains: Crosby, Toews, Landeskog, I believe Mike Richards was still a teenager as well.
 
Those comparing this to 20 years ago, the league is so different, coaching mentalities are different, player development is different. Back then a kid would have to scratch and claw his way to get noticed, the vet would always get the benefit. Guys like Dixon Ward and Darroll Powe could probably hang around 2-3 more years than necessary because no cap. Prospect camps didn't exist back in the days. Vets would spend all summer fishing and drinking beer and use Training Camp to get back into shape.

Also, the Rangers can sign free agents. Just because you're rebuilding doesn't mean every UFA has the plague. It doesn't work that way. Sign guys who will help the kids improve as professionals. Bring in vets like Fedotenko and Propsal were for the last core.
 
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I don’t agree with keeping Kreider under pretty much any circumstance. He’ll be 29 to start his deal. If Panarin will be too old and almost out of his prime when this team truly competes than Kreider will be way out of his.

Also, if they are concerned with who will play in the top-6, go out and sign someone on a short term deal like Marcus Johansson or trade for a vet that has a year or two left but is slightly overpaid. They will have the cap space. LA may be looking to offload Toffoli.
 
Kreider should be gone before October if they can get their hands on Panarin under fairly reasonable circumstances, otherwise he’s gone in February 2020.
 
Here’s something to keep in mind re: Kreider/Panarin...it’s very possible the Rangers (or another team) trade a draft pick to Columbus for his negotiating rights prior to the entry draft. If the BJs don't think they can sign him, it’s likely they will try to recover some draft capital. That could take all of the what if out of the equation.

And yes, I would trade a 4th former right to talk to Panarin before the draft.

Didn't they change the rules to allow pending UFA's to talk to other teams like a week before being able to sign?
 
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