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Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XL

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Kupo said:
If the team attempts to accelerate the rebuild like they did in 04, they are punching and kicking and robbing the paying customers.
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Huh?

In 2004, they traded everything that wasn't nailed down. There was no letter. There was an impending labor dispute.

After the lost year they came back, signed a large number of players and (quite unexpectedly) made the playoffs. They still had all of their young players Most turned out to be duds.

The Rangers are perfectly entitled to not sign any free agents this year. That is their right. They also run the very real risk of having a bad young team, not just for this year but for years to come. I can list far more bad young teams than you can list Stanley Cup Champions with a burn the furniture strategy.
 
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bobbop said:
Huh?

In 2004, they traded everything that wasn't nailed down. There was no letter. There was an impending labor dispute.

After the lost year they came back, signed a large number of players and (quite unexpectedly) made the playoffs. They still had all of their young players Most turned out to be duds.

The Rangers are perfectly entitled to not sign any free agents this year. That is their right. They also run the very real risk of having a bad young team, not just for this year but for years to come. I can list far more bad young teams than you can list Stanley Cup Champions with a burn the furniture strategy.
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They did alright. A lot of revisionist history here. Not including Lundqvist, Betts, Prucha, Moore, Hollweg, Tyutin and then Staal, Dubi, Cally, Girardi. That's not even factoring in guys like Hossa and Orr. The would go on to draft Hagelin/Stepan/Del Z/Kreider/Anisomov in those years as well and get McD in a big trade.

A lot of those guys had solid NHL careers like a Tyutin, Ortmeyer and Betts.

Once again,no superstars, but find support players. A lot of the picks from 05-09 played a large role in the runs they'd have in 12, 14, ad 15.
 
2004 was never a true rebuild...there was a fire sale to trade off all the pending UFAs heading into a work stoppage. then between the lockout burning the final year of contracts and buyouts like 2/3 of the league were free agents. it was a completely different situation
 
The Crypto Guy said:
Staals not blocking anyone. Get Smith off the team and Claesson is gone. Can't put out a team with 4-5 defenseman under 2 years experience.

Trade Shatty next season or the season after.

Staal and Shatty don't need to be playing all 82 games, if a kid is deserving of the spot give it to them.

If he is a 55 point scorer in 3-4 years do you think that's worth 11M for another 3-4 seasons?
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Sergei Fedorov lost a lot of offense when he got older but he was still really valuable because he changed his game to be an elite defensive player. Same for Scott Stevens. Why can't Panarin do the same?
 
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Skjeikspeare said:
They did alright. A lot of revisionist history here. Not including Lundqvist, Betts, Prucha, Moore, Hollweg, Tyutin and then Staal, Dubi, Cally, Girardi. That's not even factoring in guys like Hossa and Orr. The would go on to draft Hagelin/Stepan/Del Z/Kreider/Anisomov in those years as well and get McD in a big trade.

A lot of those guys had solid NHL careers like a Tyutin, Ortmeyer and Betts.

Once again,no superstars, but find support players. A lot of the picks from 05-09 played a large role in the runs they'd have in 12, 14, ad 15.
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I think he was more referring to the likes of Josef Balej and Alexandre Giroux than the guys we took with picks.
 
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NYR Viper said:
I understand the people not wanting to overpay for Panarin. Anything at or north of $10m is outside of where the Rangers should be playing for practically anyone. In saying that, if they can get him on a team friendlier deal, say 7 years at $9.5m, I’m not sure I understand the desire to pass on that.
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Because even if he was miraculously to sign with the Rangers at a below market rate, that contract is going to come with NTC/NMC. The Rangers will not be really ready to compete for at least a few more years. So the issue becomes paying Panarin to waste his prime years and then, at a time when they are really ready to compete and can use cap space to add to their core, paying him to no longer be the player that he once was and no longer to be able to move him due to said clauses.
 
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SA16 said:
Sergei Fedorov lost a lot of offense when he got older but he was still really valuable because he changed his game to be an elite defensive player. Same for Scott Stevens. Why can't Panarin do the same?
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Umm...Federov won his first Selke in his 4th year in the league. And Scott Stevens was always a fantastic defenseman.

I have watched Panarin play. There is absolutely no indication that he, at any time, could morph into Jan Erixon.
 
haohmaru said:
I keep seeing the negative but never see anything positive in your takes.

Was Howden a pleasant suprise?
Did Buchnevich make huge strides?
Did ADA become an NHL defenseman before our eyes?
Did Georgiev provide a sample size worthy enough to think of him as a possible NHL starter?
Did Zibanejad take a huge step forward?
Did Kreider have another solid year?
Did Ryan Strome have a career changing year?

It's not all pouring rain and gale force winds. There were a lot of positives last year.
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I really don't think we have negatives, so much as question marks. The point is that you dont stop rebuilding and jump to UFA signings when you dont know if K'Andre is Mcdonagh or MDZ. Stay the course, the same course that as you pointed out, created so many positives.
 
bobbop said:
The Rangers are perfectly entitled to not sign any free agents this year. That is their right. They also run the very real risk of having a bad young team, not just for this year but for years to come. I can list far more bad young teams than you can list Stanley Cup Champions with a burn the furniture strategy.
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I think its a very real possibility of next year being the true bottom out year, as Gorton has basically stripped the team of nearly every player from the contending years except for 4, with 1 having a chance to be traded this summer. That phase of the rebuild is basically over. I don't see how not signing a free agent this summer runs the risk to be bad for years to come though?
 
bobbop said:
Huh?

In 2004, they traded everything that wasn't nailed down. There was no letter. There was an impending labor dispute.

After the lost year they came back, signed a large number of players and (quite unexpectedly) made the playoffs. They still had all of their young players Most turned out to be duds.

The Rangers are perfectly entitled to not sign any free agents this year. That is their right. They also run the very real risk of having a bad young team, not just for this year but for years to come. I can list far more bad young teams than you can list Stanley Cup Champions with a burn the furniture strategy.
Click to expand...

They traded for Jagr and signed Straka and Nylander. That’s not what a rebuilding team should have done.

Our prospect pool is definitely much better now because Gorton did a much better job acquiring assets for veterans.

If we start signing players in free agency in hopes that we improve our team, that there is a sign of attempting to accelerate the rebuild. I hope Gorton avoids that. For now anyway.

Get us one more top-5 pick next year. Evaluate our prospects progression, then start zeroing in a guys via free agency and trades.
 
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Thirty One said:
He is a source of:
- frustration
- ire
- confusion
- fatigue
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One consideration when trying to project how age will impact a player is games played. Panarin doesn't have many NHL games, only four full NHL seasons. Many of the players who play well into their 30s also broke into the league later. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, St. Louis come to mind immediately. But later examples might be Wheeler, Giordano, Radulov... it doesn't happen often that a player at that age will have played so few games. And that lack of mileage could be a reason for optimism regarding Panarin 4 or 5 seasons out.

Just to put into perspective, when Panarin turns 32 at the start of the 2023-24 season, if he played his average 80 1/2 games, he'd have 622 career NHL games. When Rick Nash turned 32, he'd played 989 games. If Mika Zibanejad somehow played the same amount over those four seasons, he'd be 30, with 813 games played.
 
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Going with a high priced UFA at this point in the rebuild is sort of like borrowing against future earnings. You want these prospects to succeed. You want them to become great players in the NHL. The fact is, until they are, they aren't. I think we've developed a great pool in a short amount of time. But to say we know what we have in Lias, Howden, Chytll, as well as Miller and yes even Kakko is premature at best. That's when you start to spin your wheels. You become just good enough to not have a shot at the best players in the draft, but you're not good enough to win the whole thing.
 
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bobbop said:
I can list far more bad young teams than you can list Stanley Cup Champions with a burn the furniture strategy.
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That's because they start rebuilding too late. You cannot quickly draft your way out of misery because even a 1OA is just 1 guy of 19 who dress every night.

If you start rebuilding early enough that not everything rotted, you can trade vets for youth and speed up the rebuilding. How many years behind would the Rangers be without ADA, Lias, K'Andre, Lundkvist, Howden, Hajek, Rykov, Lindgren, Lemieux, Strome, the 2019 picks from the Jets, Dallas and Tampa?

This team would be in a massive hole, staring at an endless rebuild without a light at the end of the tunnel, lying to the fans that Kakko alone will be our savior. When one 2OA guy wouldn't deliver us from misery, fans would declare that rebuilding doesn't work.

Rebuilding works if you do it properly. That means trading Kreider, Vesey, Names and Fast for young assets at some point in the next 10 months. It also means not signing any star UFAs to artificially improve the team and to draft another top 5 guy in 2020.
 
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How much worse would this team really be without guys like kreider, shattenkirk, vesey anyway? The Rangers were competitive most nights last season.

Not against trading any of those guys to acquire young talent or picks.
 
Beacon said:
That's because they start rebuilding too late. You cannot quickly draft your way out of misery because even a 1OA is just 1 guy of 19 who dress every night.

If you start rebuilding early enough that not everything rotted, you can trade vets for youth and speed up the rebuilding. How many years behind would the Rangers be without ADA, Lias, K'Andre, Lundkvist, Howden, Hajek, Rykov, Lindgren, Lemieux, Strome, the 2019 picks from the Jets, Dallas and Tampa?

This team would be in a massive hole, staring at an endless rebuild without a light at the end of the tunnel, lying to the fans that Kakko alone will be our savior. When one 2OA guy wouldn't deliver us from misery, fans would declare that rebuilding doesn't work.

Rebuilding works if you do it properly. That means trading Kreider, Vesey, Names and Fast for young assets at some point in the next 10 months. It also means not signing any star UFAs to artificially improve the team and to draft another top 5 guy in 2020.
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So exactly when do you start rebuilding? Should Nashville rebuild now? Pittsburgh? What about those perpetual rebuilding teams in Buffalo and Florida?

Your idea of rebuilding seems to come directly from baseball. Scrape the house and start over that strategy is a time tested toboggan to hell. Yeah, it worked for the Cubs. Not so good for many, many others.

And Burke Henry? C’mon. He was never considered a first pair prospect. Not even close. I saw him play extensively in the AHL and had no expectations for him whatsoever.
 
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