Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV

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With all due respect, if he can’t cash in playing with Crosby or Malkin, 2 of the greatest hockey players of all time, what makes you think he’ll fair better here with this far less talented roster?

Crosby has played with Hossa, Iginla, Malkin, Kessel, and others. His best linemates have been guys like Kunitz and Guentzel. He's a hard guy to play with if you're a high-skill player who likes the puck on his stick.

That being said, Sprong has plenty of things to work on in his game before I'd say he's ready for top-six NHL duty.
 
I think Kevin Hayes has been pretty fantastic as of late.

Helps us both if we keep him or trade him. But I don't think he ever have been better.
 
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I lol'ed when I saw that we were ONE point out of a PO spot, without even having games at hand or anything..
 
I agree with those saying we should/could focus on a wing in this upcoming draft moreso than a center. Not saying ignore C, but we spent 2 1sts on centers a year ago. Really just go with whoever the best player available is.

The more and more I’ve seen the more I’d be happy to pick 3-5 and snag Podkolzin. Kid is gonna be a stud.

Continue the (semi) tank. Grab this kid.

You never draft the position. You draft the player.

This isn't the NFL. There is so much more that can happen between drafting and playing. You take the best player available, always and without exception. Then you trade for NHL needs based on your NHL roster.
 
You never draft the position. You draft the player.

This isn't the NFL. There is so much more that can happen between drafting and playing. You take the best player available, always and without exception. Then you trade for NHL needs based on your NHL roster.

The big difference is that NHL draftees are 18 years old, not 23. It takes draftees much longer to reach the NHL so drafting based on need is just dumb
 
I think Kevin Hayes has been pretty fantastic as of late.

Helps us both if we keep him or trade him. But I don't think he ever have been better.
100% agree. This has been his best work thus far in his career so far in the early stages of the season. He is doing a lot of things right while playing in all situations.
 
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If Hayes is kept, hypothetically speaking, how would y'all create additional cap room to add more players and go after a Panarin?

Zuc is the easiest guy to trade. Namestnikov?

Remember, Buch/Pionk/TDA all need at least bridge contracts.

I'm not even considering "buy out Staal" as an option. That hurts more later.
 
If Hayes is kept, hypothetically speaking, how would y'all create additional cap room to add more players and go after a Panarin?

Zuc is the easiest guy to trade. Namestnikov?

Remember, Buch/Pionk/TDA all need at least bridge contracts.

I'm not even considering "buy out Staal" as an option. That hurts more later.

Staal's buyout doesn't really hurt as much as you'd think: cap savings of $2.8M and $2.oM in 19-20 and 20-21, respectively. After that, it's a negative cap hit of -$1.2M for two more years.
 
Everything that has leaked is that Kevin wants to remain in NYC and loves playing for the Rangers. Gorts and Hayes had many discussions about different contracts over the summer. I wonder if part of the discussion went something like this - Kevin, we need a few more assets to add to the cupboard this year to complete the rebuild. How about you sign a 1 year deal at a fair number and then we will trade you at some point this season to a contender. After the season those numbers we had discussed are still going to be there should you want to return to NY.

Slats even alluded to this at the Town Hall meeting before the season started with his Kevin is going to get a lot of money next year....
 
The problem that some people have with your point of view is:

1.) Draft picks are a crapshoot. We could finish dead last and still not end up with the 1st overall pick. A top 5 pick is nice but it doesn't mean a damned thing (see: Edmonton) if you don't build the right way around them with the right kinds of players (vets, young guys, character guys, 1st and 2nd year pros, etc...)

2.) You're constantly characterizing younger guys (like Hayes, 26) as if they're over the hill and should be traded for even more picks. At some point you have to keep some of your talent. Particularly if it's a guy you drafted or developed.

3.) Your version of that you think the Rangers should be building also isn't going to guarantee anything either.

4.) There's no magic formula to winning a cup. You have to draft smart, You have to have the right coaching staff in place to match the team you've assembled, you have to manage the cap intelligently, you have to have leaders in the room, you have to have luck through an extended playoff run, you have to have minimal injuries during that playoff run, etc...

Winning the Stanley Cup has become harder and harder as the NHL progresses and the Cap, and the subsequent parity, magnifies that.

97% of NHL teams fail to win a Stanley Cup EVERY year. That's a lot of failure.

Yeah, I would've liked to win the Cup during the timespan you mentioned. Came close. Didn't. Still pretty proud of that group of guys that achieved more than most of us around here would've thought they could. I get that that isn't enough for you but I'd venture that most of the posts in this "Roster Building" thread are by Rangers fans that want to win a Cup that have a differing viewpoint on how to get there. Maybe you should be a little more tolerant about those alternatives and a little less snarky with those that have a different vision than yours. Seems like we all want the same thing.

While I think that is all true, I just think about it a bit differently

If Draft picks are a crap shoot, then the more free rolls you have the better the odds, if the odds of winning increase the earlier you take those rolls it makes sense to have them earlier. The Kings team that beat the Rangers, two of the major players were drafted #2 and #11. They used a former #5 to trade partially for another key member. Point being they stank they draft highly, eventually built a team that was a Cup winner. Rangers have had #7, and #9, I think without the #2 or so they are going to still be missing something, perhaps even without another top 10 pick doing something. Every Edmonton, Buffalo, Arizona is countered by LA, Hawks, Pens, there may be just plain market forces as well as managerial prowess that differentiates them.

Hayes is not over the hill, he is just not going to put up the elite/near elite production that some players are going to have to in a Cup run. As a secondary player that draws match-ups sure he could be helpful but without a center, some wing, some top pair D playing around/above him at an elite/near elite level the timing is just not there for the Rangers.

There are no guarantees I agree, there is however history that shows from the salary cap on the teams that have won the cup have done things in a similar manner. There is a comparison that can be made between all of them with perhaps only the Bruins being the outlier and even they drafted some players that in hindsight should have gone at or near the top of their drafts. Do the Rangers want to go with luck with later picks or do they want to follow what the non outliers have done?

It's not a magic formula, it's how the CBA is set up, it rewards bad teams and punishes those who are stuck in the middle. There is a built in supply and demand, there is timing to that, teams can either fight against all that and try to come out on top or they can just accept that more or less that is the way it is, go with it for a couple years and then eventually change gears.

Quite honestly it's not like I have a solution, or would do much differently than what the Rangers are, other than have kept the youngest prospects in the AHL. So it's not like I am bashing them, in fact they are progressing pretty well. It's just that even with that progress, the group that is progressing, I just don't see a elite/near elite core being built, more so a core that seems to more closely resembles all the cores they have had that failed to win a Cup. Perhaps Kravtsov, Miller or whoever else they have drafted who are just starting their draft plus seasons will provide some of that at the NHL level some day, I hope so.

Yet if they do not and the Rangers decide enough with this stockpiling, it's time to flick the switch, It sure seems to me like it's still going to end up a insurmountable uphill battle once they face the teams in the playoffs who did not flick the switch until they did draft and knew they drafted some elite/near elite stuff. Everything else just falls into place way easier if there is already a couple players on their entry levels who are among the best of their peers at the top line, a top pair, without that foundation everything else always has to play above where they probably should.
 
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The problem that some people have with your point of view is:

1.) Draft picks are a crapshoot. We could finish dead last and still not end up with the 1st overall pick. A top 5 pick is nice but it doesn't mean a damned thing (see: Edmonton) if you don't build the right way around them with the right kinds of players (vets, young guys, character guys, 1st and 2nd year pros, etc...)

2.) You're constantly characterizing younger guys (like Hayes, 26) as if they're over the hill and should be traded for even more picks. At some point you have to keep some of your talent. Particularly if it's a guy you drafted or developed.

3.) Your version of that you think the Rangers should be building also isn't going to guarantee anything either.

4.) There's no magic formula to winning a cup. You have to draft smart, You have to have the right coaching staff in place to match the team you've assembled, you have to manage the cap intelligently, you have to have leaders in the room, you have to have luck through an extended playoff run, you have to have minimal injuries during that playoff run, etc...

Winning the Stanley Cup has become harder and harder as the NHL progresses and the Cap, and the subsequent parity, magnifies that.

97% of NHL teams fail to win a Stanley Cup EVERY year. That's a lot of failure.

Yeah, I would've liked to win the Cup during the timespan you mentioned. Came close. Didn't. Still pretty proud of that group of guys that achieved more than most of us around here would've thought they could. I get that that isn't enough for you but I'd venture that most of the posts in this "Roster Building" thread are by Rangers fans that want to win a Cup that have a differing viewpoint on how to get there. Maybe you should be a little more tolerant about those alternatives and a little less snarky with those that have a different vision than yours. Seems like we all want the same thing.

Agree with a lot of this, just want to add on to the first two points you made:

1. Agreed, though I think we've already done a better job of finding/drafting support talent than Edmonton has in recent memory.

2. Also agreed. Though I also think in Hayes case the issue is the cost of the contract, the fact that they are trying to 3 young promising centers, the fact they need more assets, and the fact that Hayes value is good right now.
 
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Agree with a lot of this, just want to add on to the first two points you made:

1. Agreed, though I think we've already done a better job of finding/drafting support talent than Edmonton has in recent memory.

2. Also agreed. Though I also think in Hayes case the issue is the cost of the contract, the fact that they are trying to 3 young promising centers, the fact they need more assets, and the fact that Hayes value is good right now.

To expand on this though, getting the C position sorted out with Zib and Hayes in the Mix, maybe one of Chytil, Andersson or Howden brings back that 1D that teh team needs. Looking at the RyJo for Seth Jones deal as an example.
 
Not for nothing we acquired

3 first round picks in 2017

Andersson
Chytil
DeAngelo (I include DeAngelo just because he’s a former first rounder included in Stepan deal)

3 first round picks in 2018

Kravstov
Miller
Lundkvist

We’ll almost certainly have 3 more this year.

That’s a hell of a lot of talent to add in a 3 year period. That’s not including Howden who’s another first rounder or Hajek a very highly touted second rounder.

This team is going to be ready to go back to the playoffs very quickly imo.

You add Panarin this summer and you’re going for the playoffs right away. The teams around us aren’t very good. Just aren’t and the caps and penguins eventually have to start falling off probably around the time we are going back up. We’ll have a head start on them.
 
Not to mention the vets we probably keep to build around Zibanejad kreider Skjei all first rounders. Mika and Brady 25 and under.

Should be a much more talented group chasing the Cup this time around. Still need a couple elite guys to emerge though.
 
To expand on this though, getting the C position sorted out with Zib and Hayes in the Mix, maybe one of Chytil, Andersson or Howden brings back that 1D that teh team needs. Looking at the RyJo for Seth Jones deal as an example.

I don't know why, but I'm not particularly keen on going 6 or 7 years with someone like Hayes. I just have a weird feeling about that --- it just feels like a contract that has a high probability of going bad quickly.

And I'm just not sold on the idea of moving young assets to accommodate a guy who thus far is still about 15-20 goal, 45 point center. That's roughly his career average, and roughly what he's scoring at now.

I appreciate his two way game and the strides he's made, but I just don't view him as the guy we draw the line in the sand with and say "No, not this guy."

He just doesn't strike me as that.
 
For me, Hayes has to go.

1. Not all that great, we're seeing his ceiling #'s wise. Nothing too crazy. Howden is on Pace for a Hayes like pb year. So, no major loss. Howden is also way younger, with a much higher goal scoring ability.
2. He holds onto the puck way too long. Misses countless opportunities to make a play because he has an inability to react fast enough. Rather see Chytil, Howden or Andersson in that spot.
3. We have too many Centers. Without Hayes, we Still manage to have very young, high potential depth with the ability of Boo, Names and Spooner if still here to help out depth wise.
4. He's not really a playoff performer. Seems his game is as elevated as it's going to get.
5. get rid of him, get rid of production, Get rid of some points to drop a bit.

If you can move him for a solid D piece, or a top 15 pick I would do it. Hell, Peyton Krebs is projecting 10-14 right now. There are some wingers and D men in the first 15 next year that will be able to bring it. However and more importantly, renting Zucc, trading spooner, hayes and mcquiad at the deadline drops us down a lot. If we're going to be contenders. We need a top 3 pick, another top 15 pick and a late 1st to expedite the process. Add a FA like stone or Panarin and we're in good shape for a quick turn around.

Imagine if you will.

Panarin - Zib - Buch
Kreider - Chytil - Zucc ( if not Kakko )
Andersson - Howden - Kravtsov
Vesey - Names - Fast

Skjei - ADA
Staal - Shatty
Smith - Pionk

Hank
Shesty

In the System

Kakko - top 3
Krebs - top 15
Warren - Late 1st
Lindvist
Miller
etc.

I say, another year or 2. That team competes.

Get hank a cup!
 
Not for nothing we acquired


That’s a hell of a lot of talent to add in a 3 year period. That’s not including Howden who’s another first rounder or Hajek a very highly touted second rounder.

This team is going to be ready to go back to the playoffs very quickly imo.

You add Panarin this summer and you’re going for the playoffs right away. The teams around us aren’t very good. Just aren’t and the caps and penguins eventually have to start falling off probably around the time we are going back up. We’ll have a head start on them.

I agree that we've done a good job of acquiring talent, but I don't think we'll be ready for legitimate cup runs that soon. In my opinion, that's just wishful thinking. Some of these guys still have a lot of developing to do.

I wish we had some method of seeing AHL advanced stats, because point totals aren't a good metric to go off of alone. Stats-wise, the team doesn't look so hot. The goaltending has been dreadful, but whether that's on the goalies, on the defense, or both is something I'm not too knowledgeable about as I don't have a method of watching the games. Posters on here in the AHL thread have said the d-corps has looked rough more often than not, including Crawley, Hajek, Day, and Gilmour.

Our offense puts us at average to mediocre, and our goals against per game isn't pretty. Our PP is average to below average. Our PK is average to below average. We give up a lot of shots per game. While it might be promising that we're not worse considering our roster, and I do think there is a bright future, it's going to be later rather than sooner. Lundqvist has kept us in a lot of games.
 
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Hayes can't play in a smaller city than NY without irreversibly damaging the local gene pool.

at 5x5 that's a bargain.
 
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