Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV (To trade or not to trade is the question)

[Greg02]

I'm not opposed to Tkachuck or even through building through the wings, but man can't our splash be a center just once?

 

[zlev]

JT is a proven locker room cancer and has had problems with every one of his coaches. he basically got Travis Green fired singlehandedly (not that he's a good coach but still). i do not want him especially for what it will cost.

with Berard we now have a glut of forwards anyway. one is probably going to be moved for a D to replace Trouba. you can only fit Miller on this team if you get rid of Mika, which is going to be nearly impossible.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

did we already play Ottawa at home yet?

We need to why a “we don’t want you “ chant going for Brady

I'm not opposed to Tkachuck or even through building through the wings, but man can't our splash be a center just once?

I hear Norris is available

 

[effen]

Berard skating in a regular jersey. Is this the end of Reilly Smith? Tbh, I think Smith will be missed if he's gone. Id rather scratch Vesey, who has been a non-factor all year. He seems cooked.

Kaapo Kakko 13 points this year: He's really coming on! That's our boy!
Reilly Smith 13 points this year: f***ing trashcan what the f*** trade this bozo

 

[grachevsceiling]

Kaapo Kakko 13 points this year: He's really coming on! That's our boy!
Reilly Smith 13 points this year: f***ing trashcan what the f*** trade this bozo

Pretty sure we have to count Kakko’s points the way we count a dog’s years of life. Just a law of the universe.

 

[RGY]

Very disingenuous on the Reilly Smith - Kaapo Kakko comparison.

After the first couple weeks Smith became a major passenger. Up until last night when he was finally asserting himself and shooting the puck. Kakko has had a good all around game all year. This guys is not going to be a 60+ point player. But a 40-50 point player that plays extremely responsible, has strong defense, and his lines tend to possess the puck more when he is on the ice, yes.

I would be scratching Vesey for Berard. That is the way now and really the plan moving forward. Berard has elite bottom 6 potential. Just a buzzer around the ice. He has the younger legs. He can be really effective in the limited managed 4th line minutes. Vesey is the safety net to rotate in.

 

[will1066]

I think the Canucks morale lifting after JT went away is kind of a major red flag.

Do we really want to deal with that? I think it’s a worthy risk if Zibanejad goes the other way (would have to be more) but beyond that? Ehhhh.

We just jettisoned Trouba, so no. Stay away from the angry sulkers.

Very disingenuous on the Reilly Smith - Kaapo Kakko comparison.

After the first couple weeks Smith became a major passenger. Up until last night when he was finally asserting himself and shooting the puck. Kakko has had a good all around game all year. This guys is not going to be a 60+ point player. But a 40-50 point player that plays extremely responsible, has strong defense, and his lines tend to possess the puck more when he is on the ice, yes.

I would be scratching Vesey for Berard. That is the way now and really the plan moving forward. Berard has elite bottom 6 potential. Just a buzzer around the ice. He has the younger legs. He can be really effective in the limited managed 4th line minutes. Vesey is the safety net to rotate in.

I'd be a passenger too after trying to carry two corpses.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Tony D had 50+ points at one point in NY. What makes Vancouver so different from NY? Because we have great pizza, some Frank Sinatra song, and the Yankees won a lot of championships at various points?

Amazing everyone forgets that was/is Liza Minelli's song.

 

[RGY]

We just jettisoned Trouba, so no. Stay away from the angry sulkers.


I'd be a passenger too after trying to carry two corpses.

You could be right. Could be a product of the constant shuffling that he couldn’t find his rhythm. He looked much better last night.

Like i said i would scratch Vesey for Berard to stay.

 

[LokiDog]

I don’t have targets in mind at this point because working out the cap and what we have between now and the TDL vs at the start of next season, and potential money in/out based off of who gets moved or not is too exhausting.


Mika can’t be the 1C. Trochek has been waking up a bit, but he’s not a real 1C either. That’s not a jab at him; last year was not his normal season and he wasn’t brought in to be a 1C in the first place. Mika may be fine as a 2C or even “3C” if necessity dictates it. That would just be 5v5 minutes; he’d still be heavily utilized on special teams and his overall ice time would still be enough that he likely would be happy with it while also having more in the tank and feeling less pressure by cutting his overall minutes down a bit.

Regardless, we need a genuine 1C or top six C with untapped potential to gamble on (like Chytil, but sturdier than a Christmas ornament). I don’t know how we get it. For this particular need, I say no one is off limits. I have no idea who would even be available, but depending on the quality of the player in question (as well as age, years of team control, etc.) I’d do anything. It’s the most important position on the roster and one we’re constantly weak at. If it’s an unproven guy with upside or a reclamation/change of scenery type of deal, maybe Miller or Kakko is the piece. If somehow a legitimate option like Pettersson or Tage were to be unhappy and shake free, I don’t really care. I’d move Fox + if need be. Laf + Perreault. Whatever.

Regardless, that’s a position that we simply need to address eventually if we ever want to win, and with the Igor extension we should probably find it during the first half of the new deal while we’re still paying for elite performance.

Aside from a true top center, I don’t love the construction of our forward core but there’s now so many moving pieces it’s impossible to really predict, and when you look at a lot of winning rosters, it’s 2-3 key forwards and some complimentary depth, so I don’t know if it matters if it’s Panarin, Kakko, Cullye, Laf, Kreider, Smith, Berard on the wings or if 3 of those names are different by this time next year. Probably doesn’t matter as much as getting a true 1C.

On defense, the entire left side needs to be rebuilt. Miller can stay because I believe the upside is there and he’s the type of player you eventually regret moving even if he doesn’t become some big star. At the same time, he’s probably got some of the best value of any pieces we can move and would probably benefit from a change so… he may not be here long. Point is, we need two legit LHD, likely both bonafide top four. That itself is not a small order. I also don’t think Mancini is ready and I think it’s premature to be penciling him in as a regular for next season as well.

Next year is the last on Panarin’s contract. We committed to Igor. If we know this organization, it’s 100% a go for it year. Unless he takes a big step, I really don’t think you wanna roll into Panarin’s last season with Mancini in your top-six on D. Point is, I think we need more than just 2 LHD. We probably need to add 3 defenders.

So with that said, as much as I would like to see more significant turnover from the veteran group up front…

Panarin - (Trochek?) - Laf
Kreider - Zibanejad - ???
Cullye - Chytil - Kakko
Edstrom - Carrick - Berard
??? - Fox
??? - Schneider
Jones/Vaakanainen - ???

If none of them are going to be moved I’d entertain shifting one of Trochek/Zibanejad to wing so that instead of Smith’s spot being the one that needs filling, we are aggressively in the market for a 1C. But I also don’t know how we can even afford the 2-3 D that we need, let alone adding a top line center.

We also still ought to cross the bridge on the fact that Panarin is very unlikely to be re-signed and is still a 100 point winger. I can’t solve the puzzle above, as to how to fill those 3-4 spots with the cap and movable assets that we have. Right now, without further moves, this team is 100% not setup for a deep playoff run, IMO. Panarin at 50% (especially since we didn’t have to retain on Trouba) for 1 more year after this is still probably the best trade chip this team has ever had. It should be considered. Yes, it makes us worse this season, but we’ve been to the ECF twice, tried three coaches… anything worse than the SCF is not the goal either way, so… does it really matter that it makes us worse this season? It can net a package that sets us up much better for the following few seasons. That’s where the eyes should be. I don’t think we retool and full all of these holes IN SEASON this year AND go on a run that’s more successful than last year. This team isn’t winning the 2025 Cup. Let’s put the focus on 26 and 27. That means some hard decisions on guys like Bread and even Kreider during 24-25.

That’s where I stand now. Zibanejad is the only one I can’t stand. I don’t specifically WANT Kreider or Panarin off the team at this point. It’s not at all about how I feel towards the players; this team isn’t winning without more significant changes. Zibanejad likely won’t be moved so he needs to be shifted down the lineup, relieved of responsibilities (and that A on his shirt) and just play his game and be a 70+ point 2C (who hopefully bounces back a bit when relied on less, because I believe his problems are attitude/mental, not true physical decline). Trochek could be moved, but honestly his contract isn’t bad and he brings things not many others do. That kind of makes us stuck with only two guys with significant cap hits that can be moved to facilitate changes, and they both have positive value and can bring back pieces that help us next year and going forward. Bread and Kreider. At least one really should go. Along with Smith, Lindgren, maybe Miller, maybe Kakko/Chytil, maybe a couple prospects who don’t have clear paths to a spot, or needed to sweeten a deal for an impact player.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I think the Canucks morale lifting after JT went away is kind of a major red flag.

Do we really want to deal with that? I think it’s a worthy risk if Zibanejad goes the other way (would have to be more) but beyond that? Ehhhh.

Honestly, not even for zib.

 

[will1066]

You could be right. Could be a product of the constant shuffling that he couldn’t find his rhythm. He looked much better last night.

Like i said i would scratch Vesey for Berard to stay.

I remember joking early on, just give it time for Smith to suck, which is what happens to anyone who plays on that line. Then Lavi split them up after he finally had enough of those two and Smith did ok with Trocheck for a bit, but then they all went into a funk. Now that those two are a bit more engaged, that helps Smith.

Vesey is cooked. I don't see any redeeming value in him anymore.

 

[RGY]

I remember joking early on, just give it time for Smith to suck, which is what happens to anyone who plays on that line. Then Lavi split them up after he finally had enough of those two and Smith did ok with Trocheck for a bit, but then they all went into a funk. Now that those two are a bit more engaged, that helps Smith.

Vesey is cooked. I don't see any redeeming value in him anymore.

If Zib and Kreider play like they did last night then Smith and that line will be solid. It requires mental and physical effort.

Sadly yes i think Vesey is cooked. He doesnt have the same legs. He has his moments. But he doesnt have that same engagement, especially physically. Just seems passive. And that is likely due to his body slowing down. He is good vet to have on a cheap salary but he is gone after this year.

 

[effen]

Very disingenuous on the Reilly Smith - Kaapo Kakko comparison.

After the first couple weeks Smith became a major passenger. Up until last night when he was finally asserting himself and shooting the puck. Kakko has had a good all around game all year. This guys is not going to be a 60+ point player. But a 40-50 point player that plays extremely responsible, has strong defense, and his lines tend to possess the puck more when he is on the ice, yes.

It's not disingenuous at all. They're very comparable. That was the point.

For all the glazing about Kakko's defense, Smith had a 4th place Selke vote one year, which is one more vote than Kakko has ever gotten.

 

[effen]

Vesey is cooked. I don't see any redeeming value in him anymore.

Perfectly viable plug and play 13th forward who can PK at near minimum salary is plenty of value. He fits his slot. Last year he way overperformed his slot.

 

[will1066]

Perfectly viable plug and play 13th forward who can PK at near minimum salary is plenty of value. He fits his slot. Last year he way overperformed his slot.

13th spare is fine. He's not first string anymore to me. He's a step or two behind the play nowadays.

 

[RGY]

It's not disingenuous at all. They're very comparable. That was the point.

For all the glazing about Kakko's defense, Smith had a 4th place Selke vote one year, which is one more vote than Kakko has ever gotten.

What year was that Selke vote? And was it really 4th place? I think you should check your research on this.

This year, the year of 2024, they are not comparable.

 

[RGY]

Rasmus Andersson is the way. Find a way to bring him in for this year and next. That helps shore up the left side. They have the space now where they dont “have” to move Lindgren. Make him the 3LD.

Andersson-Fox
Miller-Schneider
Lindgren-Jones/Mancini/Vak

D is set for the playoffs. Maybe you get a cheap big nasty vet D for the 3rd pair.

Then you look at the forward group. See what we can add. Maybe a nasty bottom 6 forward. Ala Gourde. And then see if you can pry loose a top 6 forward. Could mean one of Kakko/Smith moving out.

 

[nyr2k2]

What year was that Selke vote? And was it really 4th place? I think you should check your research on this.

This year, the year of 2024, they are not comparable.

He received a 4th place Selke vote in 2018 which had him tied for 22nd overall in the voting.

 

[New York RKY]

 

[RGY]

He received a 4th place Selke vote in 2018 which had him tied for 22nd overall in the voting.

Okay sooo 6-7 years ago…

 

[effen]

What year was that Selke vote? And was it really 4th place? I think you should check your research on this.

This year, the year of 2024, they are not comparable.

Selke vote was in 2018. It was really a 4th place vote. I'm pretty sure you think I stated he got 4th place in the Selke voting. I said he got a vote that was a 4th place vote. Those are different things.

In 2024, with Kakko looking the best he's ever looked and Reilly Smith being considered cooked, they both have 4g and 9a, 2nd PP time, and very similar ice time deployments, corsi, and other stats.

There's a strong argument even that is skewed since Kakko gets to leech off Cuylle's fire start while Smith got stuck with Mopey and Dopey.

 

[haohmaru]

he'd have to go on a tear first, so no
reward-risk does not justify 8.5 nmc

He really wouldn’t. Stamkos is older, makes 8M, and has 6 less points in 2 more games. Mika has trade value. Period.

 

[kovazub94]

How about goals saved above expectation...
Vs shots for and against if you want to compare.

Igor has consistently saved above expectation.
He also does it in the playoffs.

You do need a team around him, but at the same time, he's kept this team in the running by alot.

There plenty of pro-Shesterkin arguments out there. My point was thinking that top goalies somehow not worth it while top skaters do is ridiculous. One can have position that neither skaters nor goalies deserve to be paid x% of cap but picking on goalies only?!?!? Cmon…

 

[NickyFotiu]

I do not like Igors salary nor contract length BUT what is the use of drafting good players just to let them go? I do wish the contract was shorter. I even think Igor is a bit overrated at times but he is getting what the market calls for in a top goalie. The 7 years we missed the playoffs were largely about bad goal tending. You think our defense is bad now? You might be surprised how much worse Fox and Lindy would look playing a full season with an average goalie. Right now we have 2 excellent players in Bread and Igor. We have 2 very good players in Laf and Fox. After that we have good and average players. Letting Igor go unless it was in a trade for a McDavid, Leo, Makar, Mckinnon, etc just would not make much sense. The key will be how Igor ages to whether this contract turns out good or bad.