Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV (To trade or not to trade is the question)

[MrAlmost]

People really don't understand how good Brady Tkachuk is. Point per game player with the analytics to back it up who has the exact personality type and play style the Rangers need. I'd trade a similar package for Rantanen provided we sign him.

He is good and plays to keep the puck in the zone by cycling and retrieving loose pucks. We definitely need more of that. Of course, the trade off is that guys like Chytil and Kakko, the 2 I think would be in the deal, are also 2 of maybe 4 forward that do that on our team. So we would need to start infusing that into our team more than just Tkachuk.

I'm not sure about Rantanen. I think it would be a mistake for our team to give him 13 million or whatever he wants. We don't have a Mackinnon and Makar to back him up.

 

[ThePeoplesPeople]

Reading this is buildung a house in Manasquan, and thinking that it has to be the Rangers; not the Devils or Flyers is really weird. And those teams can actually make a sensible trade with Ottawa. Rangers can’t.

Brady's wife is from NJ but yea - would just as easily make more sense for NJ or Philly. But Brady would be a phenomenal add. Unless we're talking about McDavid or MacKinnon, every player is not without flaws. Can't believe people are anti-adding him.

 

[tlk]

"Look guys, Minnesota players are so happy and care free and they have all this cap space! Rangers should do what they do!!"

When was the last time the Wilds were in the ECF or even f***ing relevant?

I agree.
But it's just a passionate take no more no less. Fans should be allowed them otherwise what's the point?
Doesn't mean it's any expertise to act with.

 

[McRanger92]

He is good and plays to keep the puck in the zone by cycling and retrieving loose pucks. We definitely need more of that. Of course, the trade off is that guys like Chytil and Kakko, the 2 I think would be in the deal, are also 2 of maybe 4 forward that do that on our team. So we would need to start infusing that into our team more than just Tkachuk.

I'm not sure about Rantanen. I think it would be a mistake for our team to give him 13 million or whatever he wants. We don't have a Mackinnon and Makar to back him up.

Yeah and I do firmly believe Brady will be a devil once his NMC kicks in this summer and he controls his destiny, you'd have to overpay to get him now. Miller is already leaking that he wants a contract he doesnt deserve. And Kakko is still complaining about ice time. Hell, we're about to throw a parade and call him untouchable because he MIGHT score 50 points. The rangers have morale and cultural issues, and those guys are not the cause, but they are definitely symptons.

 

[RangerBoy]

I've always defended Drury but the track record is what it is. Complain about his rental trades all you want but he wouldnt pony up for Eichel when he couldve had him, now Eichel has a Cup. He wouldnt even try on Tkachuk, now he has a Cup as well. Now Drury is left holding the bag on guys like Kakko and Chytil and Miller who are all good not great players, and the team is really not very close to winning a Cup.

Now he's got a chance to remake the roster, in a league full of teams also needing to remake their rosters, but all we get is leaks about how hard it is. Its kind of embarrassing for me as a fan tbh. Not to mention Trouba and the Garden of Dreams foundation are holding the entire locker room hostage.

The team can afford another superstar contract if they just don't re-sign Igor. Time for Drury to nut up and make a bold trade instead of crying to the media like his soft players.



The rangers should trade the farm for Tkachuk before the Devils do this summer when he has an NMC and requests a trade to his uncle's team.

Miller, Kakko, Othmann, Lindgren+picks for Tkachuk. Id involve Igor if Ottawa is interested.

Drury needed to move out money to acquire Tkachuk from the Flames. The guy got $9,500,000 in Florida. Florida moved out money in Huberdeau and Weegar. Huberdeau had a limited NTC of 8 teams. Weegar had no protection. Who were the Rangers sending to Calgary to make the cap work? None of their players were going to Calgary.

Was Eichel wining a Cup in NY? Not without the Rangers making wholesale changes. Vegas has those big D. They have good two way players like Karlsson.

 

[cheech70]

If Brady is available we need to do this. A total culture change. Kam,KK, Oth and vets for leadership are the centerpieces plus probably some adds for both teams. If we wait till offseason then Debbies become a competitor.

 

[McRanger92]

Drury needed to move out money to acquire Tkachuk from the Flames. The guy got $9,500,000 in Florida. Florida moved out money in Huberdeau and Weegar. Huberdeau had a limited NTC of 8 teams. Weegar had no protection. Who were the Rangers sending to Calgary to make the cap work? None of their players were going to Calgary.

Was Eichel wining a Cup in NY? Not without the Rangers making wholesale changes. Vegas has those big D. They have good two way players like Karlsson.

Im not the GM, that's his job. Panthers turned their whole D around by spending like 5 million bucks on OEL, Mikkola and Kulikov. I have zero doubt the Rangers would be a much better team with Eichel instead of Kakko/Chytil/Mika whoever they traded. Drury shouldve been on Hanifin last year too. Not a peep. Now hes on the 4 Nations team on the same team as Eichel.

It's only hard to see how the Rangers would be better because they didnt even f***ing try when it was in their grasp. Now were stuck with a team not good enough.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Drury needed to move out money to acquire Tkachuk from the Flames. The guy got $9,500,000 in Florida. Florida moved out money in Huberdeau and Weegar. Huberdeau had a limited NTC of 8 teams. Weegar had no protection. Who were the Rangers sending to Calgary to make the cap work? None of their players were going to Calgary.

Was Eichel wining a Cup in NY? Not without the Rangers making wholesale changes. Vegas has those big D. They have good two way players like Karlsson.

Pegula also put restrictions on trading Eichel to the Rangers. Plus, half of this forum was worried about the potential risks with the ADR surgery. Good on Eichel for sticking to his guns because it helped a few other players who have dealt with similar issues.

 

[McRanger92]

Pegula also put restrictions on trading Eichel to the Rangers. Plus, half of this forum was worried about the potential risks with the ADR surgery. Good on Eichel for sticking to his guns because it helped a few other players who have dealt with similar issues.

That is true, but winning championships requires boldness and Drury has been the most vanilla GM in the league during his tenure.

 

[bernmeister]

I've always defended Drury but the track record is what it is. Complain about his rental trades all you want but he wouldnt pony up for Eichel when he couldve had him, now Eichel has a Cup. He wouldnt even try on Tkachuk, now he has a Cup as well. Now Drury is left holding the bag on guys like Kakko and Chytil and Miller who are all good not great players, and the team is really not very close to winning a Cup.

Now he's got a chance to remake the roster, in a league full of teams also needing to remake their rosters, but all we get is leaks about how hard it is. Its kind of embarrassing for me as a fan tbh. Not to mention Trouba and the Garden of Dreams foundation are holding the entire locker room hostage.

The team can afford another superstar contract if they just don't re-sign Igor. Time for Drury to nut up and make a bold trade instead of crying to the media like his soft players.



The rangers should trade the farm for Tkachuk before the Devils do this summer when he has an NMC and requests a trade to his uncle's team.

Miller, Kakko, Othmann, Lindgren+picks for Tkachuk. Id involve Igor if Ottawa is interested.

no waaayyyyyyy toooo much
you are overrating Tkachuk -- very good, sure, but not that kind of haul
on top of that have to make sure we lock up talent and not get caught with stars walking away a la rental after paying price while at same time not taking on albatross contracts.

also, if listened to me and did my trades, we would still be competitive with an extended window

This is absolutely insane. Essentially 4 NHL bodies for 1, all young for the most part. You even want to get Igor into the mix of this package. Are we acquiring McDavid??

This team’s struggles have sent people to world’s they have never been before.

Concur
I am open to Tkachuk, and even to recognize some degree of overpay may be necessary depending on what we are sending.
But currency is key
It is rarely what we give up or what we get as a single dominant consideration, but the net end result of the 2.

Ok we can continue to be a mediocre team waiting for Kakko and Miller to produce consistently and not play like whimps. Tkachuk would provide more value to the Rangers than all 4 guys combined for the life of his remaining contract.

Team's that win Cups make deals like this. Not going diamond hands on guys who don't even want to be here.

Disagree (generally).

If i had to guess some names that would be used to get Tkachuk, it would be Igor, Kakko, Chytil, Miller, Lindgren and Othmann.

Hell, I'll do that whole package Bern style for Tkachuk, Chabot, and Ullmark.

thanks but all packages are not equal
we should be targeting Sanderson + several good pieces for LaF + Fox +.
Not Tkachuk

 

[CLW]

This is absolutely insane. Essentially 4 NHL bodies for 1, all young for the most part. You even want to get Igor into the mix of this package. Are we acquiring McDavid??

This team’s struggles have sent people to world’s they have never been before.

It's kind of hilarious how Drury's epic mismanagement is coming back to bite him. No doubt Dolan's instructions to make the Rangers "competitive" immediately forced Drury's hands to some degree. But now it's clear that he has fired immense amounts of ammo for essentially nothing and now the cupboards are bare of useful trade ammo.

Kakko is a RW and wingers have little trade value (see Buch) unless ready superstars. Jones is undersized and we know how NHL GMs feel about that. Miller is an enigma. Chytil has zero value until his injury situation clears.

Any serious trade offer to Ottawa for one of their good young players will start with Schneider +, and with Laffy if the deal aims at Brady. Personally I'd trade Laffy for Brady simply because Laffy embraced the country club.

The Devils will beat almost any Rangers offer with supreme ease and of course Ottawa are perfectly aware of this fact.

 

[McRanger92]

It's kind of hilarious how Drury's epic mismanagement is coming back to bite him. No doubt Dolan's instructions to make the Rangers "competitive" immediately forced Drury's hands to some degree. But now it's clear that he has fired immense amounts of ammo for essentially nothing and now the cupboards are bare of useful trade ammo.

Kakko is a RW and wingers have little trade value (see Buch) unless ready superstars. Jones is undersized and we know how NHL GMs feel about that. Miller is an enigma. Chytil has zero value until his injury situation clears.

Any serious trade offer to Ottawa for one of their good young players will start with Schneider +, and with Laffy if the deal aims at Brady. Personally I'd trade Laffy for Brady simply because Laffy embraced the country club.

The Devils will beat almost any Rangers offer with supreme ease and of course Ottawa are perfectly aware of this fact.

Laffy took less money than he couldve to stay a Ranger long-term. He also faces the media more than the other so called leaders. He's got bad habits on the ice but Im not lumping him in with the bad eggs like Trouba and Igor.

I’m excited for this Igor contract to be done so that people can stop talking about trading him

As if that there is any chance that’s happening

Yeah great lets give the malcontent goalie the biggest deal in history before he ever won anything. We will never win a Stanley Cup if they sign Igor.

Give me 1 reason why, after living through Henrik's tenure, that we should repeat that with another team that isnt good enough and a worse goalie.

 

[Kords]

Yeah keeping Brady away from NJ is almost as valuable as getting him in NY. He would be the perfect add for them. So much so I have a hard time imagining Fitz won’t 1 up any proposal Drury makes which sucks.

 

[leetch99]

Unrelated: if this league ever wanted to be fun (LMAO!!) move the trade deadline to after the first round.

Have the last eight teams just get into a nuke war with no salary cap.

Take that a step further and at the end of the season reward the playoff clubs and allow them to spend over the cap by so many million ....like a reward of sorts for trying . I think you would see some UFA guys playing harder on non playoff clubs at season end to garner attention from playoff bound GM's . Teams would be allowed one playoff signing each...Definitely a lot of ways to tinker with it LOL....you could add in round one or round four if you choose to wait that long and are able to sign a UFA from the non playoff teams. I think Dmen would be popular picks or C's .

 

[McRanger92]

Yeah keeping Brady away from NJ is almost as valuable as getting him in NY. He would be the perfect add for them. So much so I have a hard time imagining Fitz won’t 1 up any proposal Drury makes which sucks.

Devils can't offer Ottawa the "greatest goalie alive" though

 

[Guyute]

Always thought it was fishy that Drury signed the Tkachuk cousin, Casey Fitzgerald. Even more notable that Drury gave him a NHL/AHL two-way deal for year 1 and an NHL one-way deal for year 2.

 

[MrAlmost]

no waaayyyyyyy toooo much
you are overrating Tkachuk -- very good, sure, but not that kind of haul
on top of that have to make sure we lock up talent and not get caught with stars walking away a la rental after paying price while at same time not taking on albatross contracts.

also, if listened to me and did my trades, we would still be competitive with an extended window



Concur
I am open to Tkachuk, and even to recognize some degree of overpay may be necessary depending on what we are sending.
But currency is key
It is rarely what we give up or what we get as a single dominant consideration, but the net end result of the 2.



Disagree (generally).



thanks but all packages are not equal
we should be targeting Sanderson + several good pieces for LaF + Fox +.
Not Tkachuk

That package is shit, for the Rangers to both trade and recieve. Tkachuk and Chabot should be the only 2 players we want from Ottawa. And not trade Laf and Fox, who are part of the solution, not the problem.

 

[Lion Hound]

If Brady Tkachuk is available there isn't a roster player on the NY Rangers i wouldn't trade 1 for 1 for him. Quite a few 2 for 1's and some three-fers as well.

Lafreniere for Tkachuk i think makes the most sense.
Fox for Tkachuk i would also do. Fox is among my fav players on the team. Get an add from Ott on the deal.
Panarin for Tkachuk <--Contract wouldn't work for Senators, because Panarin wouldnt stay there.


Two for 1's
Cuylle and Chytil for Tkachuk
Kakko and Chytil for Tkachuk
Schneider and Chytil for Tkachuk

Three-fers
Kakko, Miller, 2025 1st rounder for Tkachuk and a 2nd.
Chytil, Miller, 2025 1st rounder for Tkachuk and a 3rd.


I doubt Zibanejad would ever waive to go back there.
I doubt Kreider has Ott on his list.
I doubt Trouba has Ott on his list.

 

[bernmeister]

these are the deals we need to make
big one w/OTT is at #2


As usual, suggest we EXTEND the window
this means deal vets for youth, few exceptions notwithstanding.

Zib's meltdown has complicated things with great negative forces. Even a premium payment to remove him must be acceptably profitable to a trade partner and that is not readily visible other than gutting nyr to an intolerable degree.
But I want to give one shot for VAN to just take him, max retained, close to free.

1. Rs-‘nucks
VAN has just over 6 in cap space. Understandably want to keep JTM; that said, while he is out, they are short. Also need D w/Hronek out. Rs need pivots and cap space. So here is the offer:
take prospect Sykora for the more available bottom 6 C Raty
take Robertson for injured expiring Forbort
take Jones for Juulsen
of these Forbort is highest paid 1.5, everybody else < 1 roughly cancels out
and we throw in Zib max retained reduced 8.5 to 4.25
ballpark cap dif is 3.75-ish hit to VAN

Further detail:
Raty [elc expiring -> rfa] > Sykora [3 yrs elc remaining] right now but ‘nucks can spare him.
LD Robertson has size etc but has not been properly developed; they kept not giving him a chance, yet resigned him this season, what does that say? But Forbort is expiring, older so it is a possibly useful body for an unavailable one.
I always liked Juulsen and give him full props for coming back after his early injury history. Jones is young, not big at 6'0 but fast, fluid skater and can play either side.

All in all a small +.
So why accommodate on Zib? Risk-reward. You are gambling that there appears to be no physical damage, the issue is he suddenly snakebit in an ongoing funk. Howev, if he was playing with his fellow Swede pal and not under the same pressure to not produce as 1C [that’s JTM when he returns], he will perform sufficiently in top 6. And again, we think there is no issue w/JTM but this is a useful stopgap while JT is out, possibly insurance if there is something we are unaware of. And worst case here for ‘nucks, they have to attach 1.5ish or so to move him to a cap floor club.

For Rs, we are looking at 4.5 structural cap recovery. Juulsen ok bottom pair. Raty fine to build with at position of need. Forbort, if he returns, is 3LD, depth after selling Lindgren


2. Rs - Sens
LaF + Fox + NYR 2025 1st, unprotected + Othmann + F prospect BMB (Bryce McConnell Barker) + Vesey
for
Sanderson +Batheson + Pinto + Kleven + Grieg +

6 assets for 5 [5 bodies for 5]. Too biz to add up, looks cap close.
Sens upgrade top 1RD, costs 1LD. LaF > Bath and huge marketing benefits to bringing in local 1OA. Sens are minus a first round pick, so adding Rs pick which looks good atm, is also huge. It does thin pivot but nice W add in Othmann. Overall value balances.

Rs get 1LD can juggle RD, add keepers Pinto + Kleven, with Grieg + Batheson useful in follow up trade.

3. NYR-LAK
While surrender of Byfield is a major concession, Kings win this deal, but it is still a fit for Rs.

W/LA in on discussions, Shesty extended 12.2 x 5, no NMC, limited ntc, which as an extension kicks in next season. Rs eat 2m per beginning this season and continuing.
Add dynamic W Batheson
Add former first rounder Grieg to strengthen mid six C

Rs get Byfield

Now there is too much on the plate for Kings to refuse. Obv Byfield is heir to Kopitar and now that has to have plan b alternate, but Ks still have good pivot depth and too many issues solved by this to decline.

The above 3 for Byfield

NOTE: with this trade now, Shesty’s value this season is not 12.2 - 2, but current 5.6 -2 = 3.6, so
That suppresses cap imbalance.


4. Rs - Ds
Smith + Lindgren + Berard
for
Dumoulin and Helleson + 2028 pick 3rd rounder upgrades to 2nd if Berard checks out

rationale: Ducks looking for F support, are good at pivot regardless of Zegras but he appears injured so a useful body couldn’t hurt. Smith is that.
Helleson has shown signs but is far enough down the depth chart they can let him go. Dumoulin would be a small wince but worth it.
Lindgren is a stopgap, if he holds up he offers depth makes moving Fowler easier

deal Trouba

So what does all this leave us?

Kreider - Byfield - Panarin [until we move him, not extending]
Pinto - Tro - Brodz
Cuylle - Chytil/Raty/Brodz - Kakko
Edstrom - Brodz -Rempe

Raty, Carrick = forward depth

Sanderson - Schneider
KAM - Kleven
Dumoulin - Mancini/Helleson/Juulsen
Forbort, if/when he plays again

usual suspects for LD depth: Scanlin/Harpur/Mackey/Ruhwedel
Rasmus Larsson and Hank Kempf may be close enuf for cup of coffee if available

Broberg on LTIR
after the above, possible buy now w/St. Louis for acceptable assets and add late in the yr

Garand reinforced Quick + Domingue

 

[Mike in Houston]

Anyone need me to post Larry's latest column or has someone already done that in this thread?

 

[MrAlmost]

these are the deals we need to make
big one w/OTT is at #2


As usual, suggest we EXTEND the window
this means deal vets for youth, few exceptions notwithstanding.

Zib's meltdown has complicated things with great negative forces. Even a premium payment to remove him must be acceptably profitable to a trade partner and that is not readily visible other than gutting nyr to an intolerable degree.
But I want to give one shot for VAN to just take him, max retained, close to free.

1. Rs-‘nucks
VAN has just over 6 in cap space. Understandably want to keep JTM; that said, while he is out, they are short. Also need D w/Hronek out. Rs need pivots and cap space. So here is the offer:
take prospect Sykora for the more available bottom 6 C Raty
take Robertson for injured expiring Forbort
take Jones for Juulsen
of these Forbort is highest paid 1.5, everybody else < 1 roughly cancels out
and we throw in Zib max retained reduced 8.5 to 4.25
ballpark cap dif is 3.75-ish hit to VAN

Further detail:
Raty [elc expiring -> rfa] > Sykora [3 yrs elc remaining] right now but ‘nucks can spare him.
LD Robertson has size etc but has not been properly developed; they kept not giving him a chance, yet resigned him this season, what does that say? But Forbort is expiring, older so it is a possibly useful body for an unavailable one.
I always liked Juulsen and give him full props for coming back after his early injury history. Jones is young, not big at 6'0 but fast, fluid skater and can play either side.

All in all a small +.
So why accommodate on Zib? Risk-reward. You are gambling that there appears to be no physical damage, the issue is he suddenly snakebit in an ongoing funk. Howev, if he was playing with his fellow Swede pal and not under the same pressure to not produce as 1C [that’s JTM when he returns], he will perform sufficiently in top 6. And again, we think there is no issue w/JTM but this is a useful stopgap while JT is out, possibly insurance if there is something we are unaware of. And worst case here for ‘nucks, they have to attach 1.5ish or so to move him to a cap floor club.

For Rs, we are looking at 4.5 structural cap recovery. Juulsen ok bottom pair. Raty fine to build with at position of need. Forbort, if he returns, is 3LD, depth after selling Lindgren


2. Rs - Sens
LaF + Fox + NYR 2025 1st, unprotected + Othmann + F prospect BMB (Bryce McConnell Barker) + Vesey
for
Sanderson +Batheson + Pinto + Kleven + Grieg +

6 assets for 5 [5 bodies for 5]. Too biz to add up, looks cap close.
Sens upgrade top 1RD, costs 1LD. LaF > Bath and huge marketing benefits to bringing in local 1OA. Sens are minus a first round pick, so adding Rs pick which looks good atm, is also huge. It does thin pivot but nice W add in Othmann. Overall value balances.

Rs get 1LD can juggle RD, add keepers Pinto + Kleven, with Grieg + Batheson useful in follow up trade.

3. NYR-LAK
While surrender of Byfield is a major concession, Kings win this deal, but it is still a fit for Rs.

W/LA in on discussions, Shesty extended 12.2 x 5, no NMC, limited ntc, which as an extension kicks in next season. Rs eat 2m per beginning this season and continuing.
Add dynamic W Batheson
Add former first rounder Grieg to strengthen mid six C

Rs get Byfield

Now there is too much on the plate for Kings to refuse. Obv Byfield is heir to Kopitar and now that has to have plan b alternate, but Ks still have good pivot depth and too many issues solved by this to decline.

The above 3 for Byfield

NOTE: with this trade now, Shesty’s value this season is not 12.2 - 2, but current 5.6 -2 = 3.6, so
That suppresses cap imbalance.


4. Rs - Ds
Smith + Lindgren + Berard
for
Dumoulin and Helleson + 2028 pick 3rd rounder upgrades to 2nd if Berard checks out

rationale: Ducks looking for F support, are good at pivot regardless of Zegras but he appears injured so a useful body couldn’t hurt. Smith is that.
Helleson has shown signs but is far enough down the depth chart they can let him go. Dumoulin would be a small wince but worth it.
Lindgren is a stopgap, if he holds up he offers depth makes moving Fowler easier

deal Trouba

So what does all this leave us?

Kreider - Byfield - Panarin [until we move him, not extending]
Pinto - Tro - Brodz
Cuylle - Chytil/Raty/Brodz - Kakko
Edstrom - Brodz -Rempe

Raty, Carrick = forward depth

Sanderson - Schneider
KAM - Kleven
Dumoulin - Mancini/Helleson/Juulsen
Forbort, if/when he plays again

usual suspects for LD depth: Scanlin/Harpur/Mackey/Ruhwedel
Rasmus Larsson and Hank Kempf may be close enuf for cup of coffee if available

Broberg on LTIR
after the above, possible buy now w/St. Louis for acceptable assets and add late in the yr

Garand reinforced Quick + Domingue

At least that garbage team would get Hagens to add with Perreault. Brods plays on 2.5 lines basically holding spots for them until 25-26. Haha

The Rangers are going to make max 4 trades. Thats it. And the number of players involved for all 4, including both sides, will probably be 12 players. You have a 10 player trade with Ottawa. It's just so unreal that even in the fun speculation thread to shoot the shit it stands out as silly.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Yeah great let’s give the malcontent goalie the biggest deal in history before he ever won anything. We will never win a Stanley Cup if they sign Igor.

Give me 1 reason why, after living through Henrik's tenure, that we should repeat that with another team that isnt good enough and a worse goalie.

Not sure what you’re referring to in the sense of him being malcontent. He told the team either meet my price or we’ll talk once the season ends and that’s what’s happened. He’s in a rut right now but it’s not uncommon and goalies are weird

If you want to make the argument they should get rid of him and build the team differently that’s fine. I’m just saying the chances of that happening in reality are close to zero. The team falls apart without him and everyone knows it. They’re at most 1-1.5 million apart on the AAV. This deal will get done just a matter of when.

Drury is an incredibly conservative GM and on the hot seat to win, do people honestly believe he’s going to let the best goalie in the league walk with no backup plan?

 

[bernmeister]

That package is shit, for the Rangers to both trade and recieve. Tkachuk and Chabot should be the only 2 players we want from Ottawa. And not trade Laf and Fox, who are part of the solution, not the problem.

Tkachuk have to be careful as noted
Chabot do not want
you are going w/crazy overpay
I say if overpay, and if you must crazy overpay, extract best return that you want

Sanderson is a better get for this team than either Tkac or Chab
prefer LaF to either also

Since you did not consider balance of the deal, I have posted full again for you
post #294 this thread.

What I am giving up is not chopped liver but neither are pieces coming back here
Sanderson is obv
getting Kleven is big help for D going forward

so no, it is not a shit offer

 

[ThePeoplesPeople]

It might be time

New username

 

[CLW]

It might be time

New username