Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIII

[kovazub94]

...Having said that, they had their best game of the year why not keep the same lines.

Fast is not being there NOW. It happened during last game.

 

[bobbop]

Some people complain about my anti-Trouba bias but I don't know how anyone who's watching these games can honestly tell me Trouba is the better defenseman than DeAngelo. Trouba is caught flat footed multiple times per game on turnovers where the other teams wingers absolutely blow by him, he is a poor skater. Buchnevich has got back before him THREE times in the last 2 games to break up 2 on 1's, also on that empty net chance that Buch saved. Trouba scares the hell out of me whenever he's on and we have a pulled goalie because I know that he is not beating any player in a footrace ever. He makes many dumb choices especially in shot selection, it seems every single game there are multiple instances where there's a player without a stick or the defending team is exhausted and he shows zero patience and just shoots it at the goalies chest getting the other team a whistle when there are clear passing lanes. DeAngelo & Fox are way better power play QB's than Trouba, they see the ice better, they're more creative, and have a higher offensive hockey IQ; Trouba should be on the 2nd unit. Another thing he does several times per game is when he gets the puck behind our net he'll slow down and skate out with it really lazily or even stop completely and the other teams forecheckers strip him of the puck, or have a close call.

I'd not only argue DeAngelo is the superior player offensively, maybe unpopular opinion but I'd argue DeAngelo is superior to Trouba defensively as well. Trouba is the type of player a very casual fan would think is impressive because he hits hard & has a booming shot, (which are certainly positive attributes) but his game has a lot of warts too. I think we'll regret his contract and I'm hoping we're able to ship him off in a few years when Lundkvist and the kids are ready. Does anyone see these issues as well?

Trouba is a much better defenseman than DeAngelo.
For starters, he plays defense and he hits. He kills penalties. Plus he is carrying a rookie next to him.

No regrets whatsoever.

 

[Anzi]

Some people complain about my anti-Trouba bias but I don't know how anyone who's watching these games can honestly tell me Trouba is the better defenseman than DeAngelo. Trouba is caught flat footed multiple times per game on turnovers where the other teams wingers absolutely blow by him, he is a poor skater. Buchnevich has got back before him THREE times in the last 2 games to break up 2 on 1's, also on that empty net chance that Buch saved. Trouba scares the hell out of me whenever he's on and we have a pulled goalie because I know that he is not beating any player in a footrace ever. He makes many dumb choices especially in shot selection, it seems every single game there are multiple instances where there's a player without a stick or the defending team is exhausted and he shows zero patience and just shoots it at the goalies chest getting the other team a whistle when there are clear passing lanes. DeAngelo & Fox are way better power play QB's than Trouba, they see the ice better, they're more creative, and have a higher offensive hockey IQ; Trouba should be on the 2nd unit. Another thing he does several times per game is when he gets the puck behind our net he'll slow down and skate out with it really lazily or even stop completely and the other teams forecheckers strip him of the puck, or have a close call.

I'd not only argue DeAngelo is the superior player offensively, maybe unpopular opinion but I'd argue DeAngelo is superior to Trouba defensively as well. Trouba is the type of player a very casual fan would think is impressive because he hits hard & has a booming shot, (which are certainly positive attributes) but his game has a lot of warts too. I think we'll regret his contract and I'm hoping we're able to ship him off in a few years when Lundkvist and the kids are ready. Does anyone see these issues as well?

He seems to me like a guy with all the tools but no toolbox. I remember looking at the analytical comparison of Trouba and DeAngelo and it basically said that DeAngelo was the far better offensive player and Trouba was the better (but not great either) defensive player. If DeAngelo is able to improve his defense a bit while maintaining his level of offense, he could easier be the better player.

People also saw his point totals and talked about how impressive it was that he got so many points without that much power play time. I was skeptical of Trouba on our PP1 because even on the Jets he was not used in the PP much and when he was, he was not effective.

I was on the side of not trading for Trouba because we would not only have to give up assets, but also pay him big money. Pionk and a 1st was less than I expected so I was okay with it but $8M for that long scared me. I really hope Trouba will be better than he has shown so far because otherwise I could see him becoming a contract that we wish we didn't have in a few years.

 

[bobbop]

Garrioch is reporting that Minnesota has made Donato, Erickson Ek and Fiala available. That sounds a little counter intuitive to me but if he is right, I’d certainly look into Donato. I’ve always liked him although I haven’t had eyes on him yet this year.

 

[kovazub94]

Re. PP. I would like to see both Zibanejad and Panarin in a position to shoot off of left wall. I want both Zibanejad and ADA high by blue line. They could shift to the middle forcing Panarin and Buchnevich taking turns in high slot (depending on a shift).

 

[Leetch3]

Garrioch is reporting that Minnesota has made Donato, Erickson Ek and Fiala available. That sounds a little counter intuitive to me but if he is right, I’d certainly look into Donato. I’ve always liked him although I haven’t had eyes on him yet this year.

I think all 3 names are interesting depending on the price...

 

[Trxjw]

Garrioch is reporting that Minnesota has made Donato, Erickson Ek and Fiala available. That sounds a little counter intuitive to me but if he is right, I’d certainly look into Donato. I’ve always liked him although I haven’t had eyes on him yet this year.

Oh yes. My dream of getting Fiala for Kreider has legs once again!

 

[LORDE]

Oh yes. My dream of getting Fiala for Kreider has legs once again!

Doubt Minn wants a 1yr rental Kreider

 

[LaffyTaffy]

Watching the Heritage classic for shits and giggles, Sam Bennett is so bad at hockey.

 

[bobbop]

Random thought...one team not scoring goals right now is Chicago. Would guess they are not on Kreider’s no trade list. Of course he’s off to a slow start too. Depending on how they assess their long term situation and how much they like the player, they could be game for a Thanksgiving trade. I’d take their 1st and Perlini (they would want some lottery protection) in a heartbeat.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Bad news for everyone but I'm doubtful ADA is back here next year, he got forced into a low contract this year so he is gonna want a home run contract if he continues this pace or even close to it. The good news is we have more guys coming up to fill in. Just my opinion

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Watching the Heritage classic for ****s and giggles, Sam Bennett is so bad at hockey.

The ice is awful, part of the outdoor game so hard to read a guy in this type of game.

 

[Ola]

Some people complain about my anti-Trouba bias but I don't know how anyone who's watching these games can honestly tell me Trouba is the better defenseman than DeAngelo. Trouba is caught flat footed multiple times per game on turnovers where the other teams wingers absolutely blow by him, he is a poor skater. Buchnevich has got back before him THREE times in the last 2 games to break up 2 on 1's, also on that empty net chance that Buch saved. Trouba scares the hell out of me whenever he's on and we have a pulled goalie because I know that he is not beating any player in a footrace ever. He makes many dumb choices especially in shot selection, it seems every single game there are multiple instances where there's a player without a stick or the defending team is exhausted and he shows zero patience and just shoots it at the goalies chest getting the other team a whistle when there are clear passing lanes. DeAngelo & Fox are way better power play QB's than Trouba, they see the ice better, they're more creative, and have a higher offensive hockey IQ; Trouba should be on the 2nd unit. Another thing he does several times per game is when he gets the puck behind our net he'll slow down and skate out with it really lazily or even stop completely and the other teams forecheckers strip him of the puck, or have a close call.

I'd not only argue DeAngelo is the superior player offensively, maybe unpopular opinion but I'd argue DeAngelo is superior to Trouba defensively as well. Trouba is the type of player a very casual fan would think is impressive because he hits hard & has a booming shot, (which are certainly positive attributes) but his game has a lot of warts too. I think we'll regret his contract and I'm hoping we're able to ship him off in a few years when Lundkvist and the kids are ready. Does anyone see these issues as well?

Great post and I agree with significant parts of it.

But I want to make a few smaller but still very significant distinctions:

-I don’t want TDA night in and night out taking those shifts against AO and co. Even if it works for 1 or 10 of 40 games, I think it would start to wear him down eventually.

-What you call “warts” with Trouba, is from my POV more like ‘cost of doing business’, if you get what I mean?

-Comparisons can from my POV be a bit dangerous. I am and have from day 1 been baffled at how TDA handles some situations. All players can’t have everything. We don’t compare Kreider with Panarin.

-I also think that it’s important to remember that Trouba is taking the toughest minutes for a young team trying to find its footing, and it’s a new environment for him.

 

[Ola]

Another thing that impacts us from a roster building perspective — I think Buch has been great lately, especially away from both Ziba and Panarin. Ie when asked to play a bit more straight N-S.

Gorton in practice went All-In this summer on that Buch, TDA and Lemieux would suck this season. That bet still bothers me a lot.

 

[Ola]

My starting point is still that Gorton should have bought out both Staal and Smith which would have enabled him strong arm TDA, Buch and Lemieux into signing great 5 year deals instead of great 1 year deals.

Buying out Staal and Smith gives us a bit of a cap hit in the coming two years, I think the alternative Gorton chose with bridge deals will hurt us more.

WITH THAT SAID, I still think the positives to a large extent overweights the negatives this far into the season.

Fox has been awesome. Hajak has stringed together a few solid performances, looking comfortable. Kakko is showing glimpses. Panarin has been sick, Ziba is getting better and better. Look Trouba is not going to be perfect. But we must have someone with size that can but heads with AO and co. What alternatives would we have had? Subban? If we play a kid like TDA, Pionk or Fox there I think we eventually wear them down.

HFD seems to have gotten its act together.

Many things look good.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

When will Pionk come back down to Earth?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

When will Pionk come back down to Earth?

It was the board that had the problem not Pionk. Was a good prospect and that's why Winnipeg wanted him.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

It was the board that had the problem not Pionk. Was a good prospect and that's why Winnipeg wanted him.

Pionk was never as bad as people thought he was.

 

[Ola]

When will Pionk come back down to Earth?

When will we stop Corsi-scouting?

Three players that fan bases had very strong opinions on due to metrics changed teams this summer. Pionk, Myers and Trouba. Now Pionk is having a monster year metric wise in Winnipeg according to their fans, in NY he was the worst ever, Myers is having a monster year in Vancouver, Winnipeg fans thought he sucked, and Trouba is having a horrible metric years in NY, while Winnipeg fans argued that he was Norris caliber due to metrics.

Its possible to

for a while, but then reality will catch up and it undoubtedly have in relation to corsi-scouting-theory.

There are many very obvious factors that results in these stats failing to reflect how good a player is. I tried to point out many of them for guys like @silverfish and @ManUtdTobbe and co years ago but they wouldn't listen. Where are they now? Not at this place trying to run anyone away from the boards who didn't buy into their wild theories.

 

[Irishguy42]

I tried to point out many of them for guys like @silverfish and @ManUtdTobbe and co years ago but they wouldn't listen. Where are they now? Not at this place trying to run anyone away from the boards who didn't buy into their wild theories.

No, this ain't it, chief.

And analytics are not "wild theories" and lol "corsi-scouting" is such a simplified way of thinking about analytics.

 

[haohmaru]

I personally never had a problem with Pionk - he's still a really young player learning his position.

 

[SA16]

Pionk was always worse than people thought he was. Good for him that he's playing well so far in WPG. Let's see if it continues. It certainly did not here.

 

[Kovalev27]

yeah, we've got a couple seasons. You keep failing to grasp this premise.

I’m really not you said decisions have to be made this season. I’m wholeheartedly disagreeing with that. You’ve got plenty of time

 

[Fitzy]

Certain schemes/situations work better for some blueliners than others. We've known this for time immemorial.

Part of Girardi/Staal's struggles were decline, but a big part of it was the change in system from Torts to AV. Had Sauer still been playing here, I suspect he would have had the same problem.

Getting the right defenseman for the system is key. Winnipeg at least early on seems to have found a player in Pionk who fits their schemes pretty well.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Huh. Dobson's the extra? Doesn't Trotz realize he needs to play? That the young colt needs to be given time to run free and make his mistakes, so he can develop into the great stallion? Are they ruining their high 2018 pick?!?!?