Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XIII (Nanaki edition)

[Machinehead]

If they're on the team they have to play sometime...might as well use them when they're at least some what effective.

Do we want them to be 4th liners? It's not ideal, but it was fine until we went back to the two top 4 defense pairs that are near bottom of the league.

 

[kovazub94]

The Rangers have (had - but I'm pretty sure it will be back soon) a proper first line in Panarin - Trocheck - Lafreniere. They have a proper 4th line in Vesey - Carrick - Edstrom / Brodzinsky. And they can do a lot worse than having Kreider - Zibanejad - Smith and Cuylle - Chytil - Kakko as their middle-6. We're still in early November for cry sake to lament ES minutes allocation and Laviolette trying to find the right balance.
Last year things haven't settled until about late-January. Can we be a little patient maybe? A lot of you say that you don't care about regular season which is fine but it suppose to mean for a team like the Rangers (that is not really in danger of not making the playoffs) that there are 82 games rehearsal to figure it out - not some odd dozen of games at the start of the season.

 

[NickyFotiu]

couldn't help yourself, i see!

it's not my job to know who the mAgIcAl CoAcH is. I'm not paid millions to know that.

Laviolette, however, is paid millions and deploying the players on the roster is absolutely his job.

You didn't answer the question. Everyone knows Lindgren isn't a top pair defenseman on a Cup winning team. I'll be even more specific: do you think Laviolette is making a mistake by playing Lindgren with Fox? Or is his coaching acumen so vast and inscrutable that mere commenters such as us may never call such things into question?

I have said Lindy should not be on the first pair for a very long time going back well over a year (maybe 2). The problem is not saying Lindy should not be a 1st pair Dman. The problem is finding the best 3 pairs for a team with a flawed group of 6.

Beyond that I'm questioning if I should respond to your posts because they seem to imply the same things repeatedly.

Is your goal for me to say HF posters know more than NHL coaches? Or that you would do a better job than Lavi coaching the NY Rangers?

Coaches do not know everything. They are not fortune tellers. Coaches make mistakes. As a person who has coached multiple levels I made mistakes. Have you considered trying to get a NHL coaching position?

 

[McRanger92]

Rangers have their 3rd best center playing a top line role, their 3rd best LW playing a top 6 ES role, and their worst defenseman playing on the top pair. Their defense and veteran leaders are butter soft. The path out of this country club mess is with their youth, but they don't get it.

 

[Machinehead]

The Rangers have (had - but I'm pretty sure it will be back soon) a proper first line in Panarin - Trocheck - Lafreniere. They have a proper 4th line in Vesey - Carrick - Edstrom / Brodzinsky. And they can do a lot worse than having Kreider - Zibanejad - Smith and Cuylle - Chytil - Kakko as their middle-6. We're still in early November for cry sake to lament ES minutes allocation and Laviolette trying to find the right balance.
Last year things haven't settled until about late-January. Can we be a little patient maybe? A lot of you say that you don't care about regular season which is fine but it suppose to mean for a team like the Rangers (that is not really in danger of not making the playoffs) that there are 82 games rehearsal to figure it out - not some odd dozen of games at the start of the season.

I would be perfectly fine being patient if we were waiting for something. They've picked out the exact iceberg they're going to crash into.

On the forward lines, I don't disagree with you, but they'll backtrack on that soon anyway.

The real problem is the defense, and I would be extremely surprised, barring injury, if they're not running the same top 4 game 1 of the playoffs. What we should have been patient with are the new pairs, but here we are.

I think the team demonstrated lack of patience running back to the same shit that doesn't work, not the fans.

 

[McRanger92]

I would be perfectly fine being patient if we were waiting for something. They've picked out the exact iceberg they're going to crash into.

On the forward lines, I don't disagree with you, but they'll backtrack on that soon anyway.

The real problem is the defense, and I would be extremely surprised, barring injury, if they're not running the same top 4 game 1 of the playoffs. What we should have been patient with are the new pairs, but here we are.

I think the team demonstrated lack of patience running back to the same shit that doesn't work, not the fans.

If they don't make any changes to the defense usage and personnel, they will be a first round exit. Shades of the 15-16 season where the fundamental flaws were obvious from the get go and then we got slaughtered by Pittsburgh in 5.

How is running back the same team a "lack of patience" though? it's the complete opposite imo. Drury gave this core another shot because he couldnt trade anyone (except Lindgren who has no value outside being paired with Fox). The MO coming into this season was one more kick at the can, Trouba said as much, and I'd argue Lavi/Drury are being way too patient with a roster that is doing the same annoying things its done since the covid seasons.

Obviously they are still a very good team but they can't win a Cup doing things this way.

 

[Machinehead]

If they don't make any changes to the defense usage and personnel, they will be a first round exit. Shades of the 15-16 season where the fundamental flaws were obvious from the get go and then we got slaughtered by Pittsburgh in 5.

How is running back the same team a "lack of patience" though? it's the complete opposite imo. Drury gave this core another shot because he couldnt trade anyone (except Lindgren who has no value outside being paired with Fox). The MO coming into this season was one more kick at the can, Trouba said as much, and I'd argue Lavi/Drury are being way too patient with a roster that is doing the same annoying things its done since the covid seasons.

Obviously they are still a very good team but they can't win a Cup doing things this way.

Overall, I don't really disagree.

"Lack of patience" is referring to the specific instance of breaking up defense pairs after literally the first bad game to go back to the old ones.

Their patience with the old pairs and the problems on the roster would make Jesus blush.

 

[McRanger92]

Overall, I don't really disagree.

"Lack of patience" is referring to the specific instance of breaking up defense pairs after literally the first bad game to go back to the old ones.

Their patience with the old pairs and the problems on the roster would make Jesus blush.

The loyalty to the orthodoxy of Lindgren/Fox, Miller/Trouba and Mika/Kreider, makes me want every guy mentioned (not named Fox) off the team. Its a flashing red light to me that these players want to play with who they are comfortable with, more than they want to win or even play hard.

We can talk about their process using xGF or SOG or whatever, but when you consistently lose 5v5 it means you're consistently losing 1 on 1 battles. And if you're consistently losing 1 on 1 battles, you're either soft or getting outworked. And those things are symptoms of one another. Laviolette could call it out and everyone would know he's right, but he's just another guy who has already punched his ticket to the Hall of Fame, so what does he care?

 

[TGWL]

If Lindgren and Fox weren't so close, would the organization see the issue or would they still believe the warrior attitude will prevail all current flaws in his game?

 

[IDvsEGO]

If Lindgren and Fox weren't so close, would the organization see the issue or would they still believe the warrior attitude will prevail all current flaws in his game?

Lindgren is the type of player coaches love.
You never question his effort.

Only his results.

Coaches love to point to his effort to the skill guys and say “look how he plays”

Lindgren will get a ufa contract. It’ll be way more than he should.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

There's definitely a huge element of that.

We had one bad game against Washington. Granted, it was an all-time bad game, but still one game.

So Lavi completely blows up the lineup, and it's only gotten worse since, but this is the lineup now.

Roster blow up happened after the Ducks game.

 

[McRanger92]

Lindgren is the type of player coaches love.
You never question his effort.

Only his results.

Coaches love to point to his effort to the skill guys and say “look how he plays”

Lindgren will get a ufa contract. It’ll be way more than he should.

Laviolette doesnt question anyones effort anyway. Kreider hasnt skated hard in 2 years.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The Rangers have (had - but I'm pretty sure it will be back soon) a proper first line in Panarin - Trocheck - Lafreniere. They have a proper 4th line in Vesey - Carrick - Edstrom / Brodzinsky. And they can do a lot worse than having Kreider - Zibanejad - Smith and Cuylle - Chytil - Kakko as their middle-6. We're still in early November for cry sake to lament ES minutes allocation and Laviolette trying to find the right balance.
Last year things haven't settled until about late-January. Can we be a little patient maybe? A lot of you say that you don't care about regular season which is fine but it suppose to mean for a team like the Rangers (that is not really in danger of not making the playoffs) that there are 82 games rehearsal to figure it out - not some odd dozen of games at the start of the season.

The only reason the Rangers aren't in danger of falling out is because they have two great goalies. If we even had just the one great goalie we'd be at the risk of him getting off his game for a long time as has happened to Igor. The rest of the roster is bubble quality at best. Maybe not the players themselves but the quality of play. The Rangers get outplayed now every game they play and the one game they didn't they lost 6-1.

I have said Lindy should not be on the first pair for a very long time going back well over a year (maybe 2). The problem is not saying Lindy should not be a 1st pair Dman. The problem is finding the best 3 pairs for a team with a flawed group of 6.

Beyond that I'm questioning if I should respond to your posts because they seem to imply the same things repeatedly.

Is your goal for me to say HF posters know more than NHL coaches? Or that you would do a better job than Lavi coaching the NY Rangers?

Coaches do not know everything. They are not fortune tellers. Coaches make mistakes. As a person who has coached multiple levels I made mistakes. Have you considered trying to get a NHL coaching position?

I don't care if Lindy plays on the third pair but the top two pairs of Miller-Fox and Schneider-Trouba were great when they played. But Laviolette had his loyalty to a bum.

 

[kovazub94]

The real problem is the defense, and I would be extremely surprised, barring injury, if they're not running the same top 4 game 1 of the playoffs. What we should have been patient with are the new pairs, but here we are.

I think the team demonstrated lack of patience running back to the same shit that doesn't work, not the fans.

In turn I'd be extremely surprised if Drury doesn't address issues on D by TDL. I think he was trying to do in in offseason but it didn't workout. I will reserve judging his effort in addressing the defensive corp until after TDL - until then it will be musical chair thing which doesn't come unexpected - the unexpected positive from Mancini is more of a positive sign toward beyond this season and keep moving existing pieces will just move exposure(s) from one spot to another...

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

And if you're consistently losing 1 on 1 battles, you're either soft or getting outworked.

Not much reason to believe there’s a difference in how hard pros are trying out there. Players consistently losing 50/50s is more likely due to poor skating, balance, puck skills, IQ with regards to body/puck positioning, vision and overall awareness of the play, etc.

 

[McRanger92]

Not much reason to believe there’s a difference in how hard pros are trying out there. Players consistently losing 50/50s is more likely due to poor skating, balance, puck skills, IQ with regards to body/puck positioning, vision and overall awareness of the play, etc.

The Rangers players are always working their asses off but just suck 5v5 because they are unskilled? I'm not buying that one. Maybe in Make a Wish Lindgren's case.

Adam Fox isnt getting beat on the forecheck consistently because of poor pucks skills or IQ. It's because he's poorly conditioned or mailing it in. Same thing with Kreider, who hasnt thrown a hit forechecking since Alain Vigneault was the coach. Many such cases. It's why the offense only scores when they are standing still in the offensive zone on the PP.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

The Rangers players are always working their asses off but just suck 5v5 because they are unskilled?

 

[Machinehead]

Lack of talent is a very legitimate criticism of this roster.

After Panarin, puck skills absolutely fall off the face of the Earth.

Everyone is always so focused on how Mika and Kreider "should be dominant" and yet nobody seems concerned that both of them transport the puck like a cement truck in neutral. And we don't have anybody who can be placed on that line and play that role for them, because we can't put Panarin on every line.

Our defense has this problem in spades. Even Fox isn't that great on transitioning the puck. Our roster building strategy for the better part of ten years has been to pretend the neutral zone doesn't exist.

 

[McRanger92]

View attachment 929589

Effort is a skill

 

[zlev]

"the players aren't trying hard enough" is just coping. this roster isn't good enough and it hasn't been for 4 seasons. it's mind boggling that the people who watched the 2023 Devils series and thought "it was close" are still in here befuddled about why this team looks like shit.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

Effort is a skill

not in the sense that it differentiates players at the professional level

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

Lack of talent is a very legitimate criticism of this roster.

After Panarin, puck skills absolutely fall off the face of the Earth.

Everyone is always so focused on how Mika and Kreider "should be dominant" and yet nobody seems concerned that both of them transport the puck like a cement truck in neutral. And we don't have anybody who can be placed on that line and play that role for them, because we can't put Panarin on every line.

Our defense has this problem in spades. Even Fox isn't that great on transitioning the puck. Our roster building strategy for the better part of ten years has been to pretend the neutral zone doesn't exist.

I don’t even think it’s an overall lack of talent. It’s like 3 bad players. When they play a lot with your good guys, that’s the difference.

 

[Machinehead]

I don’t even think it’s an overall lack of talent. It’s like 3 bad players. When they play a lot with your good guys, that’s the difference.

In order to beat a team like Florida, I think it presents an issue.

In order to just be watchable, yeah, it's literally just get rid of Lindgren.

Do that, and this team is like 2nd or 3rd in the East, they'll be fun to watch, and probably lose an actually close ECF.

 

[McRanger92]

not in the sense that it differentiates players at the professional level

Who says? The Rangers play offense 5v5 like they are trying to set up a power play. You're telling me a team of guys who are all 6'2 can't consistently get to the front of the net or separate the opposing defense from the puck? They can't even get in a passing lane for the most part.

I agree with @Machinehead about how the Rangers philosophy has ignored the neutral zone for essentially my entire adult life. And I agree with you that its a skill issue on defense that needs to be rectified. But as far as the forwards go, they don't forecheck, they dont backcheck, they dont finish checks and they dont go to the dirty areas in front of their net or the oppositions. It doesnt require skill to do those things. It requires effort. And this is a coddled team (look at the D pairs and lines if you need more evidence) that plays coddled. A trade to shake things up is desperately needed and maybe we get one finally if the Jets crush us tonight.

 

[Machinehead]

Who says? The Rangers play offense 5v5 like they are trying to set up a power play. You're telling me a team of guys who are all 6'2 can't consistently get to the front of the net or separate the opposing defense from the puck? They can't even get in a passing lane for the most part.

I agree with @Machinehead about how the Rangers philosophy has ignored the neutral zone for essentially my entire adult life. And I agree with you that its a skill issue on defense that needs to be rectified. But as far as the forwards go, they don't forecheck, they dont backcheck, they dont finish checks and they dont go to the dirty areas in front of their net or the oppositions. It doesnt require skill to do those things. It requires effort. And this is a coddled team (look at the D pairs and lines if you need more evidence) that plays coddled. A trade to shake things up is desperately needed and maybe we get one finally if the Jets crush us tonight.

The whole league is 6'2". I think even with somebody like Kreider, it's overrated how big he is. He's an inch taller and 15 pounds heavier than Joe Anybody. You need to be built like Edstrom for size to be a real factor.

I absolutely think this roster is capable of forechecking and willing to do it if they got set up in the offensive zone more than like, once a period. They spend way too much time defending and the transition sucks, so on the occasions they send it the other way, the other team is already waiting for them. That's why we lean so much on the rush -- getting out of our own zone at all is disproportionately off of a mistake by the other team.

They put pressure on just fine before they went back to the clown show pairs.

Defensively, yes. This team is filled with forwards who don't play any defense, and in most cases, we knew that when we acquired them. That's another thing that isn't like, the main issue, but it'll come up deep into the playoffs. That includes Mika, who is a good penalty killer, but never bothered with defending at 5v5.