Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XII

[True Blue]

You can't actually be serious?

Just like the Leafs could never get Matthews?

Yeah. It really doesn't make sense for the largest hockey market in the US to have a super star player. Would be so bad for the NHL. I think he should go to a team like Arizona or Florida.

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

I am not talking about the Leafs. I am talking about the Rangers. And in a Gary Bettman NHL, the Rangers usually do not come out on the right side.

 

[Edge]

Dumb or not, I will stay with my view. Under Bettman, never have the Rangers come out on the right side of the equation.

In fairness though, the Rangers have seldom put themselves in the position to be on the right side of the equation.

 

[Edge]

Anyone still on an ELC+Skjei.

Maybe Fast as well, but I think he Kreider and Zibanejad can be had at the right price.

I get the sense that there's a feeling out there that the Rangers have some good support elements that could be beneficial elsewhere, but aren't necessarily enough when paired together. So in some cases, guys that aren't enough to put this team on their back and lift, are actually more appealing as supporting players for other teams.

 

[bleedblue94]

We've been reduced to a category. Addicted to shiny new toys. See, he's not actually good. We only like him because he's not ours. The numbers, the ability to exit the d zone, enter the offensive zone, win the shots battle, that's a mirage.

You honestly don't think those numbers would regress some if he were on this team as opposed to the ridiculous talent on the leafs? People here are saying he would be our best player, but on the leafs he's number 4. His numbers would regress. That's not saying he is bad, but what I am saying is we are overlooking warts on a player bc we don't see them on a daily basis like we do with our own players. That is what I am referring to as the shiny new toy. Something that we know and focus on all of the good about, bc we haven't dealt with the negatives and we don't want to see them.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Ehhh, I think he and McKenzie are still the only ones still worth taking their word for, Friedman just gives the extra info that’s mostly just teams doing their homework

I think the difference between Friedman and Bob at this point is that Bob rarely, if ever, speculates, and I feel like that's a lot of what Friedman does lately. Whether thats educated more than baseless speculation, probably, but he does a lot of "I wonder if..." and "Doesn't this make sense..." for my tastes these days.

 

[RGY]

And so based on that description,why in the world would Toronto want him as a major component in a deal for someone like Nylander, even if it was a package deal?

Im not offering Skjei.

 

[Miamipuck]

Don't underestimate the desperation and stupidity of sports GMs. There will be some fighting for their jobs come new years.

As much as we fans think about the future of the team, some of these guys will be out of jobs without a playoff run this season.

From one of my favorite movies: You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

 

[DutchShamrock]

You honestly don't think those numbers would regress some if he were on this team as opposed to the ridiculous talent on the leafs? People here are saying he would be our best player, but on the leafs he's number 4. His numbers would regress. That's not saying he is bad, but what I am saying is we are overlooking warts on a player bc we don't see them on a daily basis like we do with our own players. That is what I am referring to as the shiny new toy. Something that we know and focus on all of the good about, bc we haven't dealt with the negatives and we don't want to see them.

Of course they would regress. Some of Matthews' amazing numbers regressed without Nylander too. They have chemistry. But there is a chasm between "regressing" and the overrated label that some have tagged Nylander with. Just like people tag Nylander as the 4th best Leaf with nearly identical numbers per minute as Marner. Nylander would be a ppg player if he got 20 minutes a game with more pp time.

There is no one in this organization that is untouchable, no one would make me wince in a Nylander trade. Our talent plays inconsistent, our effort guys have no skill, our top end score 55 points. By that same token, we lack the pieces to make the trade anyway. But this is the league that sees routinely bad trade. Seguin, Hall, Subban. If December 1 passes and Dubas wants a cup run, we can absorb a sidelined Nylander that tanked in value. Everything would have to break perfect for a team that doesn't get breaks.

 

[Tawnos]

From one of my favorite movies: You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

It’s about criminals, but a line from one of my favorite TV shows: “One thing I’ve learned in my years with the Bureau is that no amount of resources or manpower can equal the person you’re looking for being stupid.”

 

[bleedblue94]

Of course they would regress. Some of Matthews' amazing numbers regressed without Nylander too. They have chemistry. But there is a chasm between "regressing" and the overrated label that some have tagged Nylander with. Just like people tag Nylander as the 4th best Leaf with nearly identical numbers per minute as Marner. Nylander would be a ppg player if he got 20 minutes a game with more pp time.

There is no one in this organization that is untouchable, no one would make me wince in a Nylander trade. Our talent plays inconsistent, our effort guys have no skill, our top end score 55 points. By that same token, we lack the pieces to make the trade anyway. But this is the league that sees routinely bad trade. Seguin, Hall, Subban. If December 1 passes and Dubas wants a cup run, we can absorb a sidelined Nylander that tanked in value. Everything would have to break perfect for a team that doesn't get breaks.

When you compare players you are constantly referencing "numbers." I believe in a mix of numbers and the eye test. Agree or not, I don't think WN is as good as marner, and regardless what I watched in that Boston series along with other viewings has stuck with me. It won't show on the numbers though. Kid has great talent, and if you read my original post to this rather than just drop a quip remark, you would have seen I said that I hope the people on this board that want wn want him as a very good complimentary top six forward but hoped they would be reasonable and not expect a top three elite player that drives a top line, bc I don't think he is that kind of player.

What you say about our roster is 100%, and that's part of why i am skeptical that people don't have rosed colored glasses on with WN bc they hate our team, see the warts in our players every game, see WN wonderful stats, and don't watch him regularly and see the warts in his game that dont come up in the stats. That's literally all I am saying.

As for him being their 4th best player: AM, MM, FA, WN

 

[DutchShamrock]

If you read my original post to this rather than the quip remark, ...

I read your original post and you got the quip remark because you reduced the Nylander fans into the "shiny new toy" camp. I'm not a child and I don't need a new star every season. There are plenty of well reasoned posts expressing their positive view of WN, but YOU choose not to read and paint with broad strokes.

Check my post history. Against Gaborik. Against Nash. Against MSL. I have always pushed for a patient, grow from within approach. But you seize unique opportunities. I have tempered my desire for Nylander with the reality that we lack the assets for a traditional trade.

The bottom line here, so we can avoid the endless spiral, is Nylander possesses skills you cannot teach while his warts are fixable. He has the vision, skill and speed to transition the puck from D to O at an elite level. He will figure out the corners and playoff hockey. No one here can figure out the transition game to his level.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Read in the post that coach Quinn is ripping them for lack of effort. .lol, this is a low talent team, and what looks like, low character as well.

Lundqvist can't be this teams best player anymore, he can't be keeping them in games.

Gorton should really try to orchestrate a move to move Henrik to a contender so he can salvage what's left of his career and maybe get a prospect.

Team needs at least 2 seasons of 1st OA picks. They need stud players.

Gorton needs to continue to flush out the remains from the past: Hayes, MZA, ****tenkirk, ... even Kreider, along with new useless players like spooner and namestnikov...

Low character yes, low talent? really?

Zucc a superstar in Swedish league
Zibanejad 6th overall pick
Kreider 19th overall pick
Howden 27th overall pick
Buchnevich probably would have been a 1st round pick if not for Russian factor
Vesey Hobey Baker winner, and finalist in prior year
Hayes 24th overall pick
Skjei 28th overall pick
ADA 19th overall pick
Smith 27th overall pick
McQuaid 55th overall pick
Shattenkirk 14th overall pick
Chytil 21st overall pick
Spooner 45th overall pick
Namestnikov 27th overall pick
Staal 12th overall pick
Lundqvist superstar goalie

(Available but not yet good enough to make this team Andersson 7th overall pick, Holland 15th overall pick, Bigras 32nd overall pick, Hajek 37th overall pick, Lindgren 49th overall pick)

Who is left? Georgiev, Fast, Claesson, Lettieri, McLeod, and Pionk

 

[bleedblue94]

I read your original post and you got the quip remark because you reduced the Nylander fans into the "shiny new toy" camp. I'm not a child and I don't need a new star every season. There are plenty of well reasoned posts expressing their positive view of WN, but YOU choose not to read and paint with broad strokes.

Check my post history. Against Gaborik. Against Nash. Against MSL. I have always pushed for a patient, grow from within approach. But you seize unique opportunities. I have tempered my desire for Nylander with the reality that we lack the assets for a traditional trade.

The bottom line here, so we can avoid the endless spiral, is Nylander possesses skills you cannot teach while his warts are fixable. He has the vision, skill and speed to transition the puck from D to O at an elite level. He will figure out the corners and playoff hockey. No one here can figure out the transition game to his level.

The original post actually addressed the bofua comparisons between zucc and want for 2-3 pages. I actually never grouped all the wn fans into a single net so please don't try to create something that isn't there. I specifically addressed certain views of wn that you apparently don't have and are more realistic about, but i never quotes to you call you out so i don't know why you felt the need to quote me with the stupid quip.

My entire point from the start is he's a good top 6 player but not a top 3 guy to drive a first line. To cut through all the other crap do you disagree with this opinion on him? Do you think he is a player that will drive a top line? Genuinely curious, and in saying that i agree he could be a nice addition for this organization if the trade made sense. No one should expect a zib for bassard type deal, i don't expect you do either.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

I go away for a few days and we're trading Pionk? C'mon guys stop being stereotypical "Nu Yawk Rainjazz" fans.....we're better than that!

(Side note: I really miss posting her every day, having a somewhat real job is definitely putting a limit on my freedom to post, and my energy lol).

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

I posted this on the Namestnikov thread and I don't think AZ would pull the plug this early and admit defeat but I'd do Namestnikov for Grabner straight up.

Grabner would at least be fun to watch and help the PK even if he doesn't score goals. And you know he brings effort. Less term on Names which AZ would salivate at and I'd even retain if a pick was coming back. Plus he could maybe jumpstart Hayes and increase his value.

Also I'm not trying to be arrogant or say "I told you so" but Valterri Filpulla at $2.75 on a one year deal with NY taxes being a factor has 6 points in 8 games which is more than Hayes, Spooner, and Namestnikov combined.

 

[Matt4776]

Definitely don't want Grabner for 3 years.

He was really good for us in an AV counter system. One of the few players that played better for AV.

Wouldn't have nearly the same success with our current team. And we'd have him for an extra year over Names.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Definitely don't want Grabner for 3 years.

He was really good for us in an AV counter system. One of the few players that played better for AV.

Wouldn't have nearly the same success with our current team. And we'd have him for an extra year over Names.

I think he can be a big asset on the PK and Quinn would fall in love with his hustle.

 

[Ola]

Gorton should accept the first creditable offer he gets for Shattenkirk and cut his losses.

Gorton and his staff have so much work to do with this team. This is not a quick turnaround.

Is Shattenkirk’s value going up? What is everyone’s guess?

All I know is that every time I’ve heard that type of thinking from other organizations my sense is that it 99/100 times didn’t work out as planned.

I don’t know how the land lies, but if Shatty has negative value maybe it’s better to take that hit now than waiting until the deadline or next season. I have a feeling that Shatty is the type who will be ‘injured’ every deadline...

Shatty mailed it in and showed up out of shape last season. Gorton should monitor him and do what LAK did to Richards and Yzerman to that young D the first shot he gets. These guys aren’t bigger than the organization. To make this rebuild work it should be the exact opposite. Same goes for Hank. Fly over Naslund and have him describe to Hank what he should do next.

 

[Ola]

Frankly, this franchise needs consecutive bottom five finishes just to increase the high end talent level.

Yeah, and we must ace drafts and trades and free agent signings. We aren’t entitled to anything, we will only win if we are the best run organization in the NHL.

What the heck type of trade is JT Miller for Namestnikov? Seriously, sure we don’t know exactly what pieces went into what and how the talks went, but seriously heads MUST roll over a trade like that. Must be one of the worst in the NHL the last decades, and it wasn’t a minor asset we completely pissed away either. Hagelin for Etem. Smith, Shatty and so forth. Spooner. Crapping up the contract situations for just about everyone forcing us to either lose them or over pay for every single player. When was the last time we signed a player to a good contract?

Gorts have quite frankly done a horrible horrible job so far.

If you replace Gorton you risk to get someone that will be afraid to make mistakes and that won’t work either. But at the very least our entire pro scouting should be taken out behind the barn.

 

[Ola]

I go away for a few days and we're trading Pionk? C'mon guys stop being stereotypical "Nu Yawk Rainjazz" fans.....we're better than that!

(Side note: I really miss posting her every day, having a somewhat real job is definitely putting a limit on my freedom to post, and my energy lol).

I really like Pionk, someone coming out of nowhere and just really going for it. The third time I saw him in the AHL he dropped ‘em against a 6’5 goon who made a high hit on his D partner.

But for me it’s kind of a Mike York situation. York was tradable because we had Marc Savard coming up (did this work out as planned? It became a series of disasters — but it just shows you the importance of having a competent front office).

We have ADA, Keane and Lundkvist in the organization. I think you will want a good amount of size on the blueline in the future in the NHL (that can skate and move the puck). Sure you won’t find 6 guys like that — but I am not sold on that you can have like 3-4 smaller Ds on the same blueline.

If Pionk — in a trade — is the difference between getting a good grade A young kid next to a vet like Zucc, Kreider?, or someone like that, I definitely think Gorts should consider it.

 

[DutchShamrock]

My entire point from the start is he's a good top 6 player but not a top 3 guy to drive a first line. To cut through all the other crap do you disagree with this opinion on him? Do you think he is a player that will drive a top line? Genuinely curious, and in saying that i agree he could be a nice addition for this organization if the trade made sense. No one should expect a zib for bassard type deal, i don't expect you do either.

I disagree that he isn't a top 3 player. I think he does drive play between the circles and I would gamble that as he progresses from his first 3 seasons he will improve and drive play more.

 

[RangerBoy]

Yeah, and we must ace drafts and trades and free agent signings. We aren’t entitled to anything, we will only win if we are the best run organization in the NHL.

What the heck type of trade is JT Miller for Namestnikov? Seriously, sure we don’t know exactly what pieces went into what and how the talks went, but seriously heads MUST roll over a trade like that. Must be one of the worst in the NHL the last decades, and it wasn’t a minor asset we completely pissed away either. Hagelin for Etem. Smith, Shatty and so forth. Spooner. Crapping up the contract situations for just about everyone forcing us to either lose them or over pay for every single player. When was the last time we signed a player to a good contract?

Gorts have quite frankly done a horrible horrible job so far.

If you replace Gorton you risk to get someone that will be afraid to make mistakes and that won’t work either. But at the very least our entire pro scouting should be taken out behind the barn.

Zibanejad has a good contract. $5.25M which includes 3 group III years.

 

[DutchShamrock]

Yeah, and we must ace drafts and trades and free agent signings. We aren’t entitled to anything, we will only win if we are the best run organization in the NHL.

What the heck type of trade is JT Miller for Namestnikov? Seriously, sure we don’t know exactly what pieces went into what and how the talks went, but seriously heads MUST roll over a trade like that. Must be one of the worst in the NHL the last decades, and it wasn’t a minor asset we completely pissed away either. Hagelin for Etem. Smith, Shatty and so forth. Spooner. Crapping up the contract situations for just about everyone forcing us to either lose them or over pay for every single player. When was the last time we signed a player to a good contract?

Gorts have quite frankly done a horrible horrible job so far.

If you replace Gorton you risk to get someone that will be afraid to make mistakes and that won’t work either. But at the very least our entire pro scouting should be taken out behind the barn.

4th liner JT Miller making $5.25 x 5 years traded, in part, for Namestinkov is the worst trade in a decade? Bad trade, as part of a larger successful trade. Sure. Worst in 10 years, no.

And Savard left NY in 1999. Mike York started here the following year. They desperately needed to replace Leetch's puck moving and traded a guy they felt was expendable. Smaller body that may have been carried by better players. The dreaded intangibles argument could be made here. York tried and worked hard on a team of retirees and floaters. He had success because of that, not because of Fleury and Lindros, although their combination of skill and his ethic helped. There is a lesson in there but I'm at work and can't sort through it all.

 

[RangerBoy]

In fairness though, the Rangers have seldom put themselves in the position to be on the right side of the equation.

The Rangers always try to hedge from being awful. They want to rebuild and be competitive at the same time. When has that ever worked?

 

[pld459666]

I wonder if we’ll see the lack of finishers impact how the Rangers approach the upcoming draft. Do they target high-end wingers with a shoot-first mentality?

I hope so.