Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XI

[Inferno]

That list backs up what I'm saying. Since the best comparable to Nylander on that list is Draisaitl.

The cap keeps going up & contract length and variance is restricted. I stand by what I said.

A guy with a near 80 pt season is not comparable to a guy whose topped out at like 61 or whatever it was.

That lisnt doesn't even remotely back you up. It's got like a dozen guys on there and the majority of them are the best of the best of the best.

Nylander isn't even the best winger on his team...he's probably the 4th best forward on his current team. Heck considering the matchups kadri gets he might be the 5th.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

If we want to increase scoring we have to realize we aren't wrought with talent throughout the lineup and load up the top end of the lineup and lock down with the bottom end. We cant spread it out because it becomes too thin.
Kreider Zibanajad Chytl
Spooner Howden Buchnevich
Vesey Hayes Zuccarello
Fast Namesticov Letteri
I like Fast but hes not a scorer, does everything you want a player but score consistantly same for Letteri and Namesticov right now and I think they could be an effective 4th line for us.
Having said all of that the team is working hard, the coaches are working hard and they are all learning this thing together and will be better for it in time.
Zuc,Hayes, Namesticov, Mcquaid are all gone at the deadline if the rebuild is done right and the only way I move for Nylander is if it's one or a combo of those guys. I'm not giving up picks or young players and stalling the rebuild.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Quinn showed all the makings of AV in preseason and early on, and I think we are seeing that he's no better with personnel. He might be even worse.

Besides, some of you are talking complete rubbish. Buchnevich is second on the team in points, third in P/60. Thats without playing particularly well. Still doing his job. There is no logical case to scratch him. Hayes and Zuccarello aren't doing their jobs. Namestnikov doesn't have a point, Spooner has one. Zibanejad has less points. Quinn is jerking him around just like AV did. Got rid of our best line after less than two games for no good reason. Puts him on the left. Quoted as saying he's unable to play the left. I guess Quinn doesn't care, and will just blame him for it. Then puts him with the mopiest and laziest player on the team who he never plays well with. Didn't work. Benched after two periods. Now scratched.

Gorton comes off looking weakest here. He takes a shot at AV's usage of Buchnevich, yet he hires a coach who is doing the same exact thing. Not only does Gorton come off looking bad, this whole situation with Quinn's personnel decisions early in the season is bad for his team.

Quinn has no control of the locker room. He's been scratching young players who have no business being scratched. The one veteran he scratches is the one he has already had a good relationship with. He's afraid to scratch the underperforming ones. What matters is not any player missing a game or two. We suck. We'll be one of the last place teams in the league and scratching one of your best players helps you out there. We are supposed to be rebuilding and letting our young players develop. How in any way do you accomplish that by doing what this guy is doing?

 

[Inferno]

Buch can and should he better..I'm not sure scratching him is the way to sd it.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Buch can and should he better..I'm not sure scratching him is the way to sd it.

I mean devils advocate but he scratched Vlad and since then hes looked pretty good. I guess we'll see, hopefully this isn't more then one game

 

[NYR713]

If we want to increase scoring we have to realize we aren't wrought with talent throughout the lineup and load up the top end of the lineup and lock down with the bottom end. We cant spread it out because it becomes too thin.
Kreider Zibanajad Chytl
Spooner Howden Buchnevich
Vesey Hayes Zuccarello
Fast Namesticov Letteri
I like Fast but hes not a scorer, does everything you want a player but score consistantly same for Letteri and Namesticov right now and I think they could be an effective 4th line for us.
Having said all of that the team is working hard, the coaches are working hard and they are all learning this thing together and will be better for it in time.
Zuc,Hayes, Namesticov, Mcquaid are all gone at the deadline if the rebuild is done right and the only way I move for Nylander is if it's one or a combo of those guys. I'm not giving up picks or young players and stalling the rebuild.

Quinn has mentioned getting Chytil more ice time and maybe that's on the wing and I like your thought process but, personally, I'd like to see:
Kreider-Howden-Zucc
Chytil-Zib-Buch
Vesey-Hayes-Spooner
Fast-Names-Lettieri

 

[NYR Viper]

People want accountability, but not really?

 

[Crease]

People want accountability, but not really?

To be more accurate, people do not want selective accountability. That said, coaches are a lot more reasonable than we fans tend to give them credit for. There is a lot going going on behind the scenes that we don't see that factor into the same roster decisions we question.

 

[offdacrossbar]

wait.....

new coach in first nhl season getting to know team decides to scratch players who he feels are underperforming or need a kick in the pants after a 1-4 start.

new coach efforting to teach new system while he himself is learning on the fly while trying to undo past damage from the AV regime and attempting to field his best 18 skaters.

news flash..... water is wet.

 

[Tawnos]

A guy with a near 80 pt season is not comparable to a guy whose topped out at like 61 or whatever it was.

That lisnt doesn't even remotely back you up. It's got like a dozen guys on there and the majority of them are the best of the best of the best.

Nylander isn't even the best winger on his team...he's probably the 4th best forward on his current team. Heck considering the matchups kadri gets he might be the 5th.

Ok, first of all, if you’re diminishing Nylander for playing with who he gets to, you need to do the same thing with Draisaitl, whose contract is also larger than what we are discussing.

Second of all, if you’re looking at cap hit alone, you’re doing it wrong. Far more important is the percentage at the time they signed, plus in many cases contract structure. Kessel’s Cap hit is $8m, but that was more than 12% of the cap when he signed the deal, while it’s barely over 10% now.

Lastly, it doesn’t matter how where he ranks on his team when it comes to salary value.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

To be more accurate, people do not want selective accountability. That said, coaches are a lot more reasonable than we fans tend to give them credit for. There is a lot going going on behind the scenes that we don't see that factor into the same roster decisions we question.

This is true.

But I think on ice game time performance should be the biggest determining factor. I don't have a problem with the scratches, If anything Quinn is sort of treating these first few games as an extension of camp.

Staal has gotten a free pass for being terrible because hes a veteran and respected. Same can probably be said for Zuccarello, who hasn't been Staal bad, but hes been disappointing. Those are my gripes with what he has done so far.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Some of these Shattenkirk comments are so dumb.

He had .5PPG last season on a bad knee. There is no bottom pairing defenseman in the NHL who can average .5PPG.

You want to say he doesn't defend well? Go ahead, its a fair criticism. Its probably what stops him from being a top pairing defenseman, but when you score points the way he does, there is no way you aren't at least a good middle pairing defenseman. Shattenkirk is the best defenseman on our team. Skjei, DeAngelo, Smith, Pionk will never get the criticism that he gets, but he's currently a better player than all of them. He's had a bad start to the season. So what? He's a veteran with a proven track record coming off a serious injury. If he's not jerked around, he'll likely play as our best defenseman this season.

I didn't think I'd be one of the people defending Shattenkirk because I didn't like the signing and I'm not the biggest fan of his game, but lets not alter reality about Shattenkirk's capabilities. Blaming Shattenkirk right now is a way to deflect from the problems with this team. The problem players, and the problems with coaching and management.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I don't think he will ever be a first-line winger on a competitive team -- at least not consistently. He'd be a good second-line on a mediocre team or, on a competitive team, a very good third-liner with occasional powerplay time. He's skilled, for sure, and he's still young. I get it. He just doesn't have that je ne sais quoi that true first liners have.

But that's just my two cents.

Please don't revise history.

The worst you could say is that he was a very good second winger on a mediocre team last season, unless your own opinions trump any fair basis for judging hockey players. Performance wise, there's a decent case he was a low-end first line winger last season. I guess 23 year olds don't get better either.

 

[Crease]

This is true.

But I think on ice game time performance should be the biggest determining factor. I don't have a problem with the scratches, If anything Quinn is sort of treating these first few games as an extension of camp.

Staal has gotten a free pass for being terrible because hes a veteran and respected. Same can probably be said for Zuccarello, who hasn't been Staal bad, but hes been disappointing. Those are my gripes with what he has done so far.

My take re: Staal is that Staal has gotten a free pass for being terrible because he is terrible. In other words, in my mind Quinn is prioritizing effort over results (which I think is perfectly reasonable in a rebuilding campaign where the difference between going .450 and .250 doesn't mean squat).

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I disagree. He is trying to see what works and has to mix and match based on who is not going at all. Having Hayes, Zucc and ZBad be pi$$ poor so far has not helped him to stabilize lines. Unlike his predecessor, Quinn reacts based to what is actually happening on the ice and not drawn up on a chalkboard somewhere.

This is not a sustainable way to coach.

We have a bad team. The solution for a bad team isn't to put everything in a blender when your bad team plays bad.

How about Quinn actually coaches the team up and fixes problems? Making huge alterations to the lines or finding another player to scratch every game who shouldn't be scratched is chaotic coaching. It doesn't teach players any lessons. It just has them confused and on edge about what is coming from day to day.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Sitting Buchnevich for a game isn't a big deal. He's been pretty piss other than the Carolina game.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

A guy with a near 80 pt season is not comparable to a guy whose topped out at like 61 or whatever it was.

That lisnt doesn't even remotely back you up. It's got like a dozen guys on there and the majority of them are the best of the best of the best.

Nylander isn't even the best winger on his team...he's probably the 4th best forward on his current team. Heck considering the matchups kadri gets he might be the 5th.

Yet he would be the best forward on the Rangers

 

[Off Sides]

My argument against Staal, the ice time being spent on him this year, by next year will mean nothing, so what's the point of spending it on him this year? Did them playing Girardi up until they bought him out do anything positive for anyone besides happy feeling for the coach or GM?

If Claesson, Smith, Skjei get a little more time because of it, and they run with it, that is a good thing. If they don't run with it at least they tried something else.

Similar for McQuaid, the ice time being spent on him does what exactly for the Rangers future assets compared to if one of or both of Pionk and/or DeAngelo developed into a NHLers this season? Like if DeAngelo developed and the Rangers wanted to trade him San Jose would not pay more than the McQuaid return? San Jose does not have a like-a-meter dictating their roster.

 

[DutchShamrock]

I presume the trade portion of that post is directed at my proposal -- and that's fine. Normally I wouldn't trade a veteran this early in the season either. A lot can happen between now and the trade deadline. But a good part of my reasoning was that Toronto is under increasing pressure to sign Nylander. If I'm not mistaken, if he doesn't sign a deal by December 1, he becomes ineligible to play this season. Now, I realize that such deadline is still six weeks away, but -- color me cynical -- I also imagine the Leafs are claiming to not be shopping Nylander just to improve their trading leverage.

Not at all. It's mostly the shatty stuff. And the guys I listed. More general observations than specific posters.

Personally, if it wasn't us looking at the bottom 5 with Hughes on deck, I'd offersheet Nylander at 5 x $6,088,000. Make the leafs sign him up to his UFA years or steal him for a 1st and 3rd. But hughes.

 

[Inferno]

Yet he would be the best forward on the Rangers

Sure...but what does that have to do with anything? I thought the goal was to win a championship...I'm not sure giving away prime assets and overpaying a winger is the best way.

 

[True Blue]

This is not a sustainable way to coach.

It is not sustainable to make changes when things are clearly not working and your top players are not performing?

We have a bad team. The solution for a bad team isn't to put everything in a blender when your bad team plays bad.

You have a bad team with a poor defense. Your top veteran forwards are playing at poor levels. Your youngsters will be inconsistent at a first. As is the way with all youngsters. What exactly is he supposed to do? Leave alone what is clearly not working? No, you make changes. Like he did when he adjusted and changed the on ice approach to a 1-2-2 zone. The play of the veteran forwards has largely been putrid. So he is trying to put them into a position of success.

How about Quinn actually coaches the team up and fixes problems? Making huge alterations to the lines or finding another player to scratch every game who shouldn't be scratched is chaotic coaching. It doesn't teach players any lessons. It just has them confused and on edge about what is coming from day to day.

What players have been scratched that did not deserve to be? ADA's play has not been so terrific that you are going to tell me that he grabbed his spot and held on with both hands. Names? Please. Coaching is ALL he has been doing. You can hear it in his communication. You can see it in his approach. He directs pretty clearly what he wants.

 

[Tawnos]

Yet he would be the best forward on the Rangers

Not only that, but likely better in the end than any pick or prospect the team would get back for their movable assets.

 

[CasusBelli]

Not at all. It's mostly the shatty stuff. And the guys I listed. More general observations than specific posters.

Personally, if it wasn't us looking at the bottom 5 with Hughes on deck, I'd offersheet Nylander at 5 x $6,088,000. Make the leafs sign him up to his UFA years or steal him for a 1st and 3rd. But hughes.

Sorry about the false accusation; I didn't mean anything by the remark.

I am 100% on board with that offer.

 

[CasusBelli]

Not only that, but likely better in the end than any pick or prospect the team would get back for their movable assets.

Precisely my rationale for approaching him in the first place. Very young. Very talented. But, from what I'm reading, also very greedy and a bit of a prima donna.

 

[True Blue]

Staal has gotten a free pass for being terrible because hes a veteran and respected. Same can probably be said for Zuccarello, who hasn't been Staal bad, but hes been disappointing. Those are my gripes with what he has done so far.

I understand and the thought is valid, however like it or not, a rookie head coach needs to play the diplomacy game for a bit. He cannot just bench a respected vet like Staal or Zucc right off the bat. Then he chances on loosing the team right out of the gate. These two have been staples in the locker room for a very long time. Staal will be given at least 20 game s or so.

I agree with McRanger. His accountability standards are very Torts like. And frankly, that has been missing around here for a long time.