Oscar Lindberg
Registered User
There's a massive gap between "not being a top pair D" and "not being good at all"
But it's not worth me getting into it
But it's not worth me getting into it
Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XI
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
- Start date
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Shattenkirk’s defense is atrocious and always has been. He can play 2nd pair but he needs a rock solid D partner to insulate him otherwise he is constantly exposed. He is a slow footed bottom pair caliber defender who is great from the offensive blue line in. This is what he’s always been. You need a 3rd pair PP QB to help try to get you over the top he’s your guy.
Slow down. Just because he isn't a top pair defenseman doesn't make him a horrible bottom feeder especially when we have guys just like that.
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
- 45,075
- 40,935
This is why you can't corsi scout. Not long ago at all we had discussions about if Shatty was a top 5 D in the world or not and many stated very firm opinions to that effect. No we will see 800 excuses, its the injury, he never recovered, its AV, its Quinn, he has worthless attitude and so forth -- because the notion that you can't corsi scout can never be right.
I don't agree that Shatty is horrible and worthless. Not even defensively, he looks pretty bad now but 95% of the Ds in the world wouldn't be able to cover for all situations they are exposed to when our game isn't functioning which it isn't right now. He is great from the blueline and in and can play a disciplined defensive game. Hitch never had any problems with Shatty's defense for a reason.
But he hasn't in many years had any kind of speed or game built on transporting the puck up ice. That was a complete no-no under Hitch. Simple passing up ice, maybe a little play here and there. Then good shot and decision making from the blueline and in. He is pretty thick at 6'0 205 lbs. I remember watching him in STL just after Hitch got fired. I saw a few games in a row with STL, he was rumored to be on the move and we were mentioned a lot. Yeo came in and wanted STL to be much more mobile and loosen up the defensive structure Hitch put in place. It wasn't pretty at all watching Shatty try to skate the puck up ice and join the attack down deep on a regular basis. I posted about it here and got really trashed because it didn't show in the corsi numbers.
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
- Jan 17, 2014
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Huh, and to think that a well-documented plan to rebuild might cause people to be a bit more patient rather than hyper-reactionary was actually going to happen.
Do y’all forget just how f***ing bad we were after AV’s first 5 games? The only player that was scoring was Brad Richards and we were getting torched on defense. Hell, it even led to the infamous “This is a bad hockey team” thread that was calling for the organization to be stripped bare and nuked for a rebuild.
At least give this team until Thanksgiving to work out the kinks and figure out who’s going to see the bulk of the ice time moving forward. Be patient, people.
Do y’all forget just how f***ing bad we were after AV’s first 5 games? The only player that was scoring was Brad Richards and we were getting torched on defense. Hell, it even led to the infamous “This is a bad hockey team” thread that was calling for the organization to be stripped bare and nuked for a rebuild.
At least give this team until Thanksgiving to work out the kinks and figure out who’s going to see the bulk of the ice time moving forward. Be patient, people.
offdacrossbar
misfit fanboy
agree.
this is such a fickle group here.
we arent going to be real good. we all knew that. we are in an active rebui.....er....re tool....er ...uh..... something. we are changing the dynamic and so far its been pretty bad.
i say give these guys 20 games and see whats up.
if the effort is there, if the passion is there, if they are prepared to play and if they are showing no quit, then thats a win for me.
im still hoping we lose every game by 1 and play our guts out.
jack hughes with 2o and 89 on his wings would look good to me.
Irishguy42
Mr. Preachy
Even then, the personnel on D is so bad that even with the kinks figured out, it's still going to be brutal.
Even if all the players start playing Quinn's system 100% correctly, the talent of the players will always make or break the team.
This is true, however, your view of Shattenkirk seems to be from 1.5+ years ago and not the stink bomb hes been the with the Rangers.
I mean, those are two very different situations. At the beginning of the 2013-2014 season, it was pretty clear that the team was adjusting to a new system and were basically running around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off. This current team? It stinks. The roster stinks on paper and the product largely stinks on the ice. Im all for being patient, but Im not holding my breath that the improvements will come in the standings this season.
Oscar Lindberg
Registered User
What view are you assuming I have?
Shattenkirk is a bonafide top 4 D in this league, if you don't think so, not sure what to tell you
He's also been injured for like 85% of his Ranger tenure. But no one seems to talk about that
- Jul 6, 2017
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The Trade
Sportsnet yesterday indicated that the Leafs aren't shopping Nylander and that Nylander has not asked for a trade. Still, just as a mental exercise, I was wondering what my fellow Rangers fans would say to the following deal:
The Leafs look like the real deal so far, and I bet they would love a stand-up, skilled veteran (like #36 join) their team. Who wouldn't? He probably has at least a few more 60-point seasons left in him. Besides, Nylander isn't even playing, and a bird in the hand, goes the saying, is worth two in the bush.
On to the picks. At least one source expects the Rangers to be a bottom-ten team this year. A top-ten third round pick is not terrible. Besides, if Nylander signs with the Rangers, the likelihood of NYR entering the playoffs ought to increase significantly. Maybe it's enough to get the Rangers in -- but probably not. Either way, though, the third round pick carries no downside.
But what about next season? NY will have Kreider, Zibanejad, Chytil, Buchnevich, Andersson and -- hopefully -- Kravtsov and Shestyorkin. We have no reason to believe that the latter two won't pan out; they have both proven themselves in arguably the second most competitive professional hockey league. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers make the playoffs -- especially with Nylander in the mix.
What about that final pick? Chances are Nylander would sign with the Rangers -- no professional player wants to miss a full season (even in an under-performing team) -- but it's hard to imagine that pick being any higher than 25th. But what if he doesn't sign with the Rangers? It's not the end of the world; we're probably talking about a bottom-five first round pick anyway.
Why should the Rangers entertain it?
Zuccarello has hit 30; his trade value is likely to only decrease. We are also rebuilding; quality young players -- like Nylander -- should be our targets. Besides, we already have more than a few veterans (Staal, Shattenkirk, Lundqvist, McQuaid and Kreider come to mind) to help mentor the youngsters.
Now we revisit the picks. The third-rounder is likely to remain a third-rounder -- even if Nylander joins the Rangers. The conditional NY Rangers first round pick might be a bit ambitious: rebuilds rarely take more than two seasons. Yes, we do have some talented players coming over, but one has to wonder whether they'll join the big club right away. And, if not, will one more year of experience and, potentially, one or two trades or signings be enough to get us into the playoffs? I'm skeptical -- but I'm also not an odds-maker.
What about Nylander not signing? It wouldn't be the first time a player holds out over a contract.
So what now?
You tell me. Is one side overpaying? Does the deal simply not make sense? Discuss! (But, please, let's keep it civil).
Sportsnet yesterday indicated that the Leafs aren't shopping Nylander and that Nylander has not asked for a trade. Still, just as a mental exercise, I was wondering what my fellow Rangers fans would say to the following deal:
- NYR trades to the Toronto Maple Leafs
- Mats Zuccarello Aasen
- NY Rangers 2019 third round pick (becomes a second round pick if NY make the playoffs this year)
- NY Rangers 2020 first round pick (if NY Rangers make the playoffs in 2019-2020)
- In exchange for
- Unsigned William Nylander
- Toronto 2019 first round pick (if Nylander does not sign with NY Rangers by draft day)
The Leafs look like the real deal so far, and I bet they would love a stand-up, skilled veteran (like #36 join) their team. Who wouldn't? He probably has at least a few more 60-point seasons left in him. Besides, Nylander isn't even playing, and a bird in the hand, goes the saying, is worth two in the bush.
On to the picks. At least one source expects the Rangers to be a bottom-ten team this year. A top-ten third round pick is not terrible. Besides, if Nylander signs with the Rangers, the likelihood of NYR entering the playoffs ought to increase significantly. Maybe it's enough to get the Rangers in -- but probably not. Either way, though, the third round pick carries no downside.
But what about next season? NY will have Kreider, Zibanejad, Chytil, Buchnevich, Andersson and -- hopefully -- Kravtsov and Shestyorkin. We have no reason to believe that the latter two won't pan out; they have both proven themselves in arguably the second most competitive professional hockey league. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers make the playoffs -- especially with Nylander in the mix.
What about that final pick? Chances are Nylander would sign with the Rangers -- no professional player wants to miss a full season (even in an under-performing team) -- but it's hard to imagine that pick being any higher than 25th. But what if he doesn't sign with the Rangers? It's not the end of the world; we're probably talking about a bottom-five first round pick anyway.
Why should the Rangers entertain it?
Zuccarello has hit 30; his trade value is likely to only decrease. We are also rebuilding; quality young players -- like Nylander -- should be our targets. Besides, we already have more than a few veterans (Staal, Shattenkirk, Lundqvist, McQuaid and Kreider come to mind) to help mentor the youngsters.
Now we revisit the picks. The third-rounder is likely to remain a third-rounder -- even if Nylander joins the Rangers. The conditional NY Rangers first round pick might be a bit ambitious: rebuilds rarely take more than two seasons. Yes, we do have some talented players coming over, but one has to wonder whether they'll join the big club right away. And, if not, will one more year of experience and, potentially, one or two trades or signings be enough to get us into the playoffs? I'm skeptical -- but I'm also not an odds-maker.
What about Nylander not signing? It wouldn't be the first time a player holds out over a contract.
So what now?
You tell me. Is one side overpaying? Does the deal simply not make sense? Discuss! (But, please, let's keep it civil).
Mac n Gs
Drury plz
- Jan 17, 2014
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That’s why I mentioned the rebuild part. My main point was that this team is adjusting to a new system too, and it doesn’t have the benefit of having much better players than the 13-14 team. They can still be a bad team while playing good hockey. Overreacting to the first 5 games is pointless.
Call me a pessimist if you'd like, but I think its much more likely that Shattenkirk WAS a top 4 D in this league and the Rangers acquired some damaged goods. The likelihood of a guy turning it around who wasn't exactly fleet of foot or a strong defender in the first place seems bleak.
Anyway, projecting what a player was instead of what he actually is/will be is whats gotten this organization into trouble for decades. Thats what you're doing right now.
I agree. I just don't know what people expected this season. Rookie coach, crap/rebuilding roster...were people really expecting this team to come out of the gate like gangbusters?
silverfish
got perma'd
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
I think what a lot of people were expecting was that the people on this board would have the wherewithal not to whine about it when they didn't.
Rebuilding teams should not trade first round picks. This is how Ottawa got in the trouble they were in, and they weren't even truly in a rebuild when it happened. So no. You're not getting a Hughes lotto ticket on my watch. Nylander is a nice player when he has good linemates. We already have Namestnikov filling that role.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
Inferno
Registered User
Rangers should not be trading first rounders for players right now...particularly 60 pt players who want 8m+ per year.
William nylander is overrated.
There, I said it. I've always felt like he benefitted playing with Matthews a helluva lot more than the other way around.
William nylander is overrated.
There, I said it. I've always felt like he benefitted playing with Matthews a helluva lot more than the other way around.
Brooklyn Rangers Fan
Change is good.
Ugh. I thought this was an actual trade. Gonna have to put this thread on ignore, otherwise every time I check in here I'll be fooled all over again.
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