Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XI: We can read between the lines

[RGY]

You’re still bringing back the same players who have proven to be atrocious as a group

Atrocious...hmm

Shattenkirk hurt all year
Mac has been banged up
ADA hasnt been with the team most of the year
Smith was just fine as part of the group last year. Has had a bad year
Skjei has been ok

Yea...not atrocious.

 

[Nopuckluck]

Instead we'll have

Vesey-Zib-Cap Space
Miller at 5x5-Hayes-Chytil
Draft Pick-Andersson-Darft Pick
Cap Space-Cap Space-Buchnevich

Skjei-Cap Space
Draft Pick-Shattenkirk
Cap Space-Smith

Lundqvist's damned soul
Shestyorkin

No worse than what we have now. And Vesey on line 1 Butch line 4? So you are the actual AV!

 

[Nopuckluck]

The question isn’t what McDonagh is this year or next. It’s a question of what he will be in the next window.

A diminished McDonagh doesn’t give you the 1D we all agree you need. A diminished McDonagh is what we are likely to have in 4 years.

Amen

 

[Gardner McKay]

The Oilers, Islanders, Panthers, Jackets, Sabres, and Coyotes have been starting over with a new core for 12 years. Looks like fun.

I agree. People have been yearning for a rebuild for I don't know what reason. They seriously don't want to hear me say for the next 10 years "I told you so" over and over and over and over...

If your going to trade McDonagh it has to be the perfect deal. You just can't **** it up. If that deal doesn't exist then re-sign him and see where things fall. Under no circumstance should JG settle for anything less than exactly what he wants. He needs to approach any interested party with the mindset of "Here are my demands. I am not budging one bit. I am not negotiating. If you want McDonagh, this is what you give up. If not, I understand".

 

[Nopuckluck]

Atrocious...hmm

Shattenkirk hurt all year
Mac has been banged up
ADA hasnt been with the team most of the year
Smith was just fine as part of the group last year. Has had a bad year
Skjei has been ok

Yea...not atrocious.

Everyone always has reasons or excuses. Fact is this years Rangers D has been atrocious and you want to bring the same group back

 

[Tawnos]

Certainly not arguing, but unless you get that 1D by trading him then it doesnt really matter much.

No argument there. But when the odds are basically even, I’d lean towards not having the big contract.

 

[Mikos87]

There is a school of thought that you can win in this league without an Elite defensemen on the backend.

That said, the only GM that really pulled that off is Jimmy Rutheford, and one season that was due to an injury to Letang.

I think the McD trade winds come up for the following reasons:

• He's a high value return- Only roster player that would return a star level package for team that is depleted of depth.
• The captaincy and McTruck are not a good fit. Never was... and he's not the type of leader that this org needs.
• They feel that can ice 6 middle six guys that can skate and win. Which is something that they don't have... but that's more attainable than top pair guys.
• Mileage concerns. Guys played a lot of hard miles and minutes... and they don't feel he's got 5-7 more years of that.

That's reasonable.

Now you want to look at the return you can get for him. IMO... you need a really good young defenseman coming back.

That's a Jacob Larrson, a Olli Juelevi... a guy that can come in and play mistake free 23 minutes a night.

Then you want a player that is going to play an important role if it not a front line player... That's a cost controlled asset that kill penalties and play a hard reliable 5v5 game.

Now you get to the picks. 1st is a must.

Then it's a sweetener to depend on what you got in terms of the players coming back in the trade.

If you get that.... you trade McDonagh.

You won't replace him... but you can replace his minutes.. and if you're doing that while augmenting other slots in the organization... then you are okay.

 

[RGY]

Everyone always has reasons or excuses. Fact is this years Rangers D has been atrocious and you want to bring the same group back

Omg give it a rest already. Do you wana elaborate or just keep making empty claims?

Is it the defensemen or is the whole team as a unit under the system AV deploys...i would go with the rather. It has been this way for years. But now, now let’s blame all 20-23 players. How about we look a bit deeper, realize that it isn’t group and its the coach. Let the group have a go under a different coach.

But sure lets take your approach and remove 10-12 players instead of the 1 coach..

 

[Nopuckluck]

I agree. People have been yearning for a rebuild for I don't know what reason. They seriously don't want to hear me say for the next 10 years "I told you so" over and over and over and over...

If your going to trade McDonagh it has to be the perfect deal. You just can't **** it up. If that deal doesn't exist then re-sign him and see where things fall. Under no circumstance should JG settle for anything less than exactly what he wants. He needs to approach any interested party with the mindset of "Here are my demands. I am not budging one bit. I am not negotiating. If you want McDonagh, this is what you give up. If not, I understand".

Agreed 100%

 

[NYR]

Everyone always has reasons or excuses. Fact is this years Rangers D has been atrocious and you want to bring the same group back

The same ones that are claiming "BUT..Shattenkirk has been playing injured all year" are the very same ones that will be complaining when we're giving up 5 goals a game next year..

 

[Nopuckluck]

There is a school of thought that you can win in this league without an Elite defensemen on the backend.

That said, the only GM that really pulled that off is Jimmy Rutheford, and one season that was due to an injury to Letang.

I think the McD trade winds come up for the following reasons:

• He's a high value return- Only roster player that would return a star level package for team that is depleted of depth.
• The captaincy and McTruck are not a good fit. Never was... and he's not the type of leader that this org needs.
• They feel that can ice 6 middle six guys that can skate and win. Which is something that they don't have... but that's more attainable than top pair guys.
• Mileage concerns. Guys played a lot of hard miles and minutes... and they don't feel he's got 5-7 more years of that.

That's reasonable.

Now you want to look at the return you can get for him. IMO... you need a really good young defenseman coming back.

That's a Jacob Larrson, a Olli Juelevi... a guy that can come in and play mistake free 23 minutes a night.

Then you want a player that is going to play an important role if it not a front line player... That's a cost controlled asset that kill penalties and play a hard reliable 5v5 game.

Now you get to the picks. 1st is a must.

Then it's a sweetener to depend on what you got in terms of the players coming back in the trade.

If you get that.... you trade McDonagh.

You won't replace him... but you can replace his minutes.. and if you're doing that while augmenting other slots in the organization... then you are okay.

Great post

 

[Tawnos]

I agree. People have been yearning for a rebuild for I don't know what reason. They seriously don't want to hear me say for the next 10 years "I told you so" over and over and over and over...

If your going to trade McDonagh it has to be the perfect deal. You just can't **** it up. If that deal doesn't exist then re-sign him and see where things fall. Under no circumstance should JG settle for anything less than exactly what he wants. He needs to approach any interested party with the mindset of "Here are my demands. I am not budging one bit. I am not negotiating. If you want McDonagh, this is what you give up. If not, I understand".

That’s exactly the way to not get what you want.

 

[RGY]

The same ones that are claiming "BUT..Shattenkirk has been playing injured all year" are the very same ones that will be complaining when we're giving up 5 goals a game next year..

Yep. How about that happens first. Love how you can see into the future.

The problem is, and always has been, the coach.

But sure take a shot at Shattenkirk. Very worthy post

 

[Mikos87]

On to Zucc:

IMO he's a guy you move by the draft, and you make it easy for the acquiring team. Here's why:

• Guys like him won't age well. This isn't an athletic freak of nature like MSL. The speed isn't there. The legs aren't there.
• The return for him won't be mind blowing, but 50-60 point wingers will get you a prospect and a 1st/2nd. You can find a minute eater in the trade, but not a point replacement. The Rangers unfortunately don't have the offensive depth... but hey you can sign a guy that adds to the prospect to solve for the depth.
• Culture change. Too nice of a guy... I love the moxy and the character... but I want a tougher locker room, and Zucc is too chummy for a douchy locker room.

In terms of return:

You take a safe middle six prospect and a 1st... or a guy like Kyrou on a 1 for 1. I for one would prefer the latter. There is going to be a contender that will make an over the top move, and the Rangers can afford to retain and pull the trigger.

Not saying he'll get that, but if you get a really good junior player but that's what you should look for.

 

[NYR]

Yep. How about that happens first. Love how you can see into the future.

The problem is, and always has been, the coach.

But sure take a shot at Shattenkirk. Very worthy post

I'm not just taking a needless shot at the guy.
It's a fact.
Shattenkirk is going to hold down the fort all of a sudden??

More like a worthless replay based on complete BS..

 

[Nopuckluck]

Omg give it a rest already. Do you wana elaborate or just keep making empty claims?

Is it the defensemen or is the whole team as a unit under the system AV deploys...i would go with the rather. It has been this way for years. But now, now let’s blame all 20-23 players. How about we look a bit deeper, realize that it isn’t group and its the coach. Let the group have a go under a different coach.

But sure lets take your approach and remove 10-12 players instead of the 1 coach..

I’ll elaborate. I watch every Rangers game. McDonough has been an abortion. I watch him pull the puck out of his net so often while standing in the crease doing nothing. I can’t believe he doesn’t have whiplash he’s turning into the net so often. Skjei has gone backwards and is useless. I wanted Shattenkirk and yeah he was hurt but defensively he’s been a disaster. I think Staal has been a decent 6th but he’s playing as a 3 and has zero offense and 1 eye. Smith has been a waste of oxygen. Holden is also a decent 6 and I’m ok with him.

 

[Mikos87]

Onto Grabner:

He's a must trade... and he's got some (not so) advanced stats that GM's pay a premium for. If you wanna know, that isn't Corsi. It's something else because relative to the league... Grabner... with his weaker competition... reaps those minutes.

• They need to start a bidding process for him. This is the only rental that the Rangers will get an overpayment for.
• The late 1st isn't out of the question. I would take a 2nd if there is a decent prospect coming back. A 3rd if it's a prospect with higher upside.
• You negotiate with every major contender and start a bidding war early.
• You pull the trigger before the trade-deadline to maxmize the Nash deal... why?
• You increased the contender's need and urgency by moving a valuable playoff piece. Reward the buyer paying a premium... jack up the rest.

If the return is a NHL body & 1st... you pull the trigger.

Then you offer Grabs a 3 year $3.3M deal in free agency... and let him be a fan favorite.

 

[Mikos87]

Holden

I may be in the minority here, but I think he can surprise with the return. If you look at the market for defensemen... No 5 defensemen... at the deadline on a cheap deal... there has been overpayment.

• You wait to deal him.
• You wait for an injury with a contender. This is the only way to get a premium for this guy.
• You get AV to play the hell out of him on the PK. Shut and do it Alain.
• Then you go to market with him before the deadline.
• Don't even bother negotiating with his agent. His agent has leverage from the stats from last season. You use those stats as leverage against other teams.

Hold for a 2nd. Don't bite for the collective group think on this board and Larry's copy paste article for a 4th. If you don't get it... wait till 2 PM at the deadline and cut bait.

 

[Mikos87]

DD.

• He plays center. You go from a 7th to a 6th just on that alone.
• Throw in a conditional based on games played to get a higher pick.

 

[pld459666]

What does loyalty have to do with it? There is not one single good reason whatsoever to not dangle Shatty if we are blowing up the core. People say that we don’t have RD depth, well if we move Zucc and don’t bring Nash back we have very little wing depth too, and not one prospect in the ranks.

We need to bring in a RD that can defend anyway. Do that. Trade Shatty, Smith, Nash and Grabner. That should get you three 1sts basically and a 2-3rd, that is a lot. Listen to offers on McD and Zucc and move them if you get an offer you can’t turn down. If you deal McD you keep Smith. Buy out Staal. Get a RD that can defend. We need that anyway. Graves can play. TDA can play. Pionk is underrated, take my word for it.

Other than not being that team that moves recently signed UFA players that took discount to sin here, there is no reason NOT to dange him. Point conceded

He's not going to command the kind of return that both McD and Zuccs will.

Moving these two are franchise altering moves Shattenkirk doesn't fall into the same category.

I have no alegience to any one player on this team. I think they are all in the same boat as not good enough to get the job done

 

[Gardner McKay]

That’s exactly the way to not get what you want.

Seemed to work out well for Sakic and Duchene.

 

[Tawnos]

You don’t move Shattenkirk because you still need players on this team.

 

[Tawnos]

Seemed to work out well for Sakic.

Sakic got less than he initially was asking for, not that he ever expected to get what he was initially asking for.

Have a red line, sure. That’s not the same as starting out at your target.

 

[Mikos87]

On Nash.

• Start whipping Rick to apply himself for the next several weeks.
• Use a conflated value to establish his market price.
• Hell make a highlight reel and send to GM's and remind them he's paying for a contract.
• Rick... you've got to apply full effort for 4-5 months for another big contract.
• Set up a call with Eric Staal to motivate Rick into one last good stretch run. Eric atleast got his shit together... Rangers need Rick to do it for a couple of more weeks and then who gives a shit... it's not like Rick ever did on a consistent basis.

Value for Nash is going to be a 1st and a prospect. It should be higher... but no GM in their right mind will pay for that.

James Neal & EKane will be the premium rentals... with the former not available at the moment.

You negotiate with all the EKane bidders... price down below EKane. Pull the trigger.

Late first. NHL Ready Prospect.

If you get that star prospect in return... shift to a lower pick.

 

[Edge]

Gotta get more than that no Edge. Especially for Nash if we retain. What if we trade them both together?

Personally, I one hundred percent agree with you (and think it's not unreasonable for both to obtain a first), I was merely providing a "floor" on any potential deal.

With regards to your question, I'd venture that the better value is likely to be in separate deals.

Though unlikely, it would be pretty weird to have 3-5 first rounders in a draft. Though I say unlikely because I think the Rangers likely push for prospects over picks, and even if they had several first rounders, I'd say the odds are that they would look to package at least two picks to get into a higher position.