Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[Barnaby]

Kakko will likely end up a defensively stalwart 2nd line winger who can play up when needed. As you said, not what we were hoping for, but valuable nonetheless.

The middle six winger defensive stalwart who can’t kill penalties? Whose offense is inconsistent or non-existent.

I’d be interested in moving Chytil and Kakko in a hockey trade. Unfortunately no one is taking on Chytil’s injury risk right now, nor is Kakko’s value all that high. I feel like I’ve seen enough of both of these guys, especially playoff Kakko. He doesn’t seem capable of adjusting to the higher pace and physicality.

 

[IDvsEGO]

The middle six winger defensive stalwart who can’t kill penalties? Whose offense is inconsistent or non-existent.

I’d be interested in moving Chytil and Kakko in a hockey trade. Unfortunately no one is taking on Chytil’s injury risk right now, nor is Kakko’s value all that high. I feel like I’ve seen enough of both of these guys, especially playoff Kakko. He doesn’t seem capable of adjusting to the higher pace and physicality.

So if Kakko's offense is non existent wtf is Mika to you?
Kakko with one of the worst runs of offensive centers this season put up not bad numbers.
Bonino and Wennberg are both offensive black holes.

Also Kakko cant kill penalties?
Can't implies he cannot, where the only thing we know is that is he is not. Likely because we have one of the best penalty kills in the league...

 

[Barnaby]

So if Kakko's offense is non existent wtf is Mika to you?
Kakko with one of the worst runs of offensive centers this season put up not bad numbers.
Bonino and Wennberg are both offensive black holes.

Also Kakko cant kill penalties?
Can't implies he cannot, where the only thing we know is that is he is not. Likely because we have one of the best penalty kills in the league...

Are we really comparing Mika’s career offensive production to Kakko’s? Are we going to cherry pick the one obscure stat that shows Kakko is a better offensive player than Mika? Even in a mediocre year Mika put up way more points. And no, I don’t think Kakko being undeservedly put on PP1 suddenly makes him an 80 point player.

Not much of a “defensive stalwart” if your extremely experienced head coach doesn’t consider Kakko one of his 6 best PK’ers.

It’s amazing to me that some people search high and low to defend Kakko’s disappointing career as being everyone else’s fault but his. I wouldn’t give him away, but if the right offer came along, then I’d be happy to move on.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Are we really comparing Mika’s career offensive production to Kakko’s? Are we going to cherry pick the one obscure stat that shows Kakko is a better offensive player than Mika? Even in a mediocre year Mika put up way more points. And no, I don’t think Kakko being undeservedly put on PP1 suddenly makes him an 80 point player.

Not much of a “defensive stalwart” if your extremely experienced head coach doesn’t consider Kakko one of his 6 best PK’ers.

It’s amazing to me that some people search high and low to defend Kakko’s disappointing career as being everyone else’s fault but his. I wouldn’t give him away, but if the right offer came along, then I’d be happy to move on.

Lets take them point by point here.

No im not comparing mika's career to kakko's career. Kakko is 23. Lets compare things at age 23 for each of them.

Age 23 Mika's career high was 17 ES goals, and 21 Assists in his age 22 season (he was then injured and missed 20+ games at 23 but we can compare those if you'd like).

Age 23 Kakko's carrer high was also in his age 22 season.
18 ES goals and 19 ES assists.

The kicker in this is Mika at 22 got 17 minutes including PP time. Kakko got 15 minutes including PP time.

Also not much of a defensive stalwart. Well we've seen over and over again, that NHL coaches are always going to trust vet forwards on the PK far more than they will rookies.
I agree he should be on it. I have no control over what a coach does.

NHL Coaches have shown to make decisions that favor vet players even if it costs a team wins.

Please see nick bonino at 3c. Please see Laf's entire career with last season as the exception.

This board is constantly gripping about coaching decisions, but now, we have someone who is arguing that its the players fault.

 

[Barnaby]

This board is constantly gripping about coaching decisions, but now, we have someone who is arguing that it’s the players fault.

So Kakko’s inferior play is the coaches fault? Are we blaming Quinn who’s been gone for years, Gallant, Laviolette? Or all three? Of course it’s the players fault. That’s not to say he’s a bad person, or lazy, but Kakko’s shortcomings are on Kakko at this point. I’m not going to fault the organization for not going out and signing four Finnish players as someone suggested above or blame the organization for the fact that his play doesn’t seem to mesh with anyone on the roster. At a certain point, disappearing for 8-10 game samples just isn’t acceptable. People still go berserk that Gallant benched him in a single playoff game for heavens sake.

It’s also interesting that folks keep discussing his 40 point season a couple years ago rather than his four other seasons where he failed to eclipse 20 - and yes, injuries were a part of that.

Edit: had 23 points one other year.

 

[Barnaby]

Lets take them point by point here.

No im not comparing mika's career to kakko's career. Kakko is 23. Lets compare things at age 23 for each of them.

Age 23 Mika's career high was 17 ES goals, and 21 Assists in his age 22 season (he was then injured and missed 20+ games at 23 but we can compare those if you'd like).

Age 23 Kakko's carrer high was also in his age 22 season.
18 ES goals and 19 ES assists.

The kicker in this is Mika at 22 got 17 minutes including PP time. Kakko got 15 minutes including PP time.

Also not much of a defensive stalwart. Well we've seen over and over again, that NHL coaches are always going to trust vet forwards on the PK far more than they will rookies.
I agree he should be on it. I have no control over what a coach does.

NHL Coaches have shown to make decisions that favor vet players even if it costs a team wins.

Please see nick bonino at 3c. Please see Laf's entire career with last season as the exception.

This board is constantly gripping about coaching decisions, but now, we have someone who is arguing that its the players fault.

The Mika comparison is also not a great one.

Mika basically continuously improved year over year whereas Kakko has stagnated. We have a five year sample size now and the arrow hasn’t been pointing up.

 

[IDvsEGO]

So Kakko’s inferior play is the coaches fault? Are we blaming Quinn who’s been gone for years, Gallant, Laviolette? Or all three? Of course it’s the players fault. That’s not to say he’s a bad person, or lazy, but Kakko’s shortcomings are on Kakko at this point. I’m not going to fault the organization for not going out and signing four Finnish players as someone suggested above or blame the organization for the fact that his play doesn’t seem to mesh with anyone on the roster. At a certain point, disappearing for 8-10 game samples just isn’t acceptable. People still go berserk that Gallant benched him in a single playoff game for heavens sake.

It’s also interesting that folks keep discussing his 40 point season a couple years ago rather than his four other seasons where he failed to eclipse 20 - and yes, injuries were a part of that.

Edit: had 23 points one other year.

He had 23 points in 63 games in HIS ROOKIE YEAR! JFC. You have a hate-on for this kid and its infurating.

You're calling him out for "inferior play" and yet you seem to have no actual response to the fact that Mika had an almost identical year (in more minutes) than Kakko at the exact same age.

Also those of us who seemed to be forced to defend him use that season because he was hurt this year, and Mika and CK couldn't play at even strength to save their live all year.
The previous season! he was on the third line and him and chytil looked like the breakout ready guys.


Are we gonna blame quinn and gallant? Absolutely. The two of them are absolutely terrible coaches. People blame gallant for benching him because the kid line was the only line that was producing anything vs tampa. So the decision was strome who was injured or kakko. It was a moronic decision. Strome wasn't producing and ended up playing like 2 shifts. Gallant focused on his vet.

Are we blaming lavi? for what? Mika and CK were exactly who they were last year, lavi gave him time there, it didnt work. They had great metrics but bad production, and then he got hurt, and chytil was hurt so our 3c was nick bonino...

 

[IDvsEGO]

The Mika comparison is also not a great one.

Mika basically continuously improved year over year whereas Kakko has stagnated. We have a five year sample size now and the arrow hasn’t been pointing up.

Mika's production was slowly going up, until his age 26 season when he absolutely exploded. He went from a 70 point guy to a 90+ point guy (by points per game).
His production went up the more ice time he got.

Its not a bad comp. Some players take time to develop.
Mika has constantly been fed pp time, has been fed minutes. And Kakko's p/60 at ES is comparable.

 

[bhamill]

The middle six winger defensive stalwart who can’t kill penalties? Whose offense is inconsistent or non-existent.

I’d be interested in moving Chytil and Kakko in a hockey trade. Unfortunately no one is taking on Chytil’s injury risk right now, nor is Kakko’s value all that high. I feel like I’ve seen enough of both of these guys, especially playoff Kakko. He doesn’t seem capable of adjusting to the higher pace and physicality.

How do we actually know he can’t kill penalties if he has never been given the chance?
How does him not being given the chance to kill penalties change his excellent defensive metrics?
Inconsistent, sure. Non existent? Even in his terrible last season he scored as many EV goals as Mika. 12. IN TWENTY LESS GAMES. extrapolating to 82 games he had 16 EV goals to Mika’s 12 EV and Kreider’s 19 EV. …

Certainly, neither Kakko nor Chytil are untouchable, but there’s no point in selling low, ever. May as well see what they can do this year. Year before last, Chytil had 45 points and Kakko had 40. I would be completely UN-surprised if they both surpass those number IF they both stay healthy.
Yes. A big if. Hence capitalizing it.

 

[Bruner4329]

Certainly, neither Kakko nor Chytil are untouchable, but there’s no point in selling low, ever. May as well see what they can do this year. Year before last, Chytil had 45 points and Kakko had 40. I would be completely UN-surprised if they both surpass those number IF they both stay healthy.
Yes. A big if. Hence capitalizing it.

If you look at Chytil's last 30 games that year he was really unproductive. However I agree his value is low because IMO he can't stay healthy and now is really one big hit away from retirement. Unfortunate but true.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

If they're not going to trade Trouba, they at least have to strip him of the C. He's proven that he hasn't earned it.


f*** him and f*** Drury

 

[bhamill]

If you look at Chytil's last 30 games that year he was really unproductive. However I agree his value is low because IMO he can't stay healthy and now is really one big hit away from retirement. Unfortunate but true.

Which I guess means he was EXTRA PRODUCTIVE before those 30 last games…
Sure, it’s a risk, but it always is. Guess we will see. All we can do is hope for the best.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Imo there's gonna be some crow eating in regards to Kakko this year, just my feeling. He's gotta prove it, has a whole offseason to get faster which is primarily his biggest issue.

 

[cheech70]

Its summer and its raining and I am bored......Laine?? sober , motivated and a sniper.. Can not believe his contract is 8m. On Mika's right side. 2 yrs left. Need 50% retainment. ????

 

[egelband]

Unpopular opinion for management. Mika’s 5v5 game is best suited in this role. 3C

I call him and Kreider the world’s best third line ever.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

Besides signing Trocheck and dumping Howden, what good moves has Drury made?

 

[Guyute]

Besides signing Trocheck and dumping Howden, what good moves has Drury made?

Mike Grier is worse. He just traded 24 year old bottom pair D making less than $1 million for a worse 30 year old bottom pair D making over $3 million.

 

[Barnaby]

He had 23 points in 63 games in HIS ROOKIE YEAR! JFC. You have a hate-on for this kid and its infurating.

You're calling him out for "inferior play" and yet you seem to have no actual response to the fact that Mika had an almost identical year (in more minutes) than Kakko at the exact same age.

Also those of us who seemed to be forced to defend him use that season because he was hurt this year, and Mika and CK couldn't play at even strength to save their live all year.
The previous season! he was on the third line and him and chytil looked like the breakout ready guys.


Are we gonna blame quinn and gallant? Absolutely. The two of them are absolutely terrible coaches. People blame gallant for benching him because the kid line was the only line that was producing anything vs tampa. So the decision was strome who was injured or kakko. It was a moronic decision. Strome wasn't producing and ended up playing like 2 shifts. Gallant focused on his vet.

Are we blaming lavi? for what? Mika and CK were exactly who they were last year, lavi gave him time there, it didnt work. They had great metrics but bad production, and then he got hurt, and chytil was hurt so our 3c was nick bonino...

Yes. As I’ve already stated, Mika improved point wise every year. Kakko has not. You can go to hockeydb and compare. He had one season of 40 points and his next highest was 23. That’s after 5 seasons in the league.

I don’t hate him. I’m just being objective. I’d love to see him at 60 points next year, but I don’t see it being likely. As I’ve said, I wouldn’t give him away but if they had a good offer then I’d strongly consider it.

I just don’t see the logic in blaming three coaches, every potential linemate on the team, and lack of undeserved PP time.

At the end of the day, he’s just not that good. Hes solid defensively though as a LW that’s not as valuable as defense or center. I also haven’t seen the flashes of offensive ability that you expect to see after 5 seasons.

 

[bhamill]

Yes. As I’ve already stated, Mika improved point wise every year. Kakko has not. You can go to hockeydb and compare. He had one season of 40 points and his next highest was 23. That’s after 5 seasons in the league.

I don’t hate him. I’m just being objective. I’d love to see him at 60 points next year, but I don’t see it being likely. As I’ve said, I wouldn’t give him away but if they had a good offer then I’d strongly consider it.

I just don’t see the logic in blaming three coaches, every potential linemate on the team, and lack of undeserved PP time.

At the end of the day, he’s just not that good. Hes solid defensively though as a LW that’s not as valuable as defense or center. I also haven’t seen the flashes of offensive ability that you expect to see after 5 seasons.

Kakko has improved every year. Except the last during which he suffered a serious knee injury. His ppg for each season in order from his first to last season: 0.34, 0.35, 0.41, 0.48, 0.31. … it’s clear that last season was the outlier.
He also improved his play away from the puck every year becoming one of the NYR best defensive forwards, which is valuable regardless of not being a center. Wingers have won the Selke. Bob Gainey, one of the best defensive forwards in NHL history was a winger. Jere Lehtenin… winger. And after 5 seasons in the NHL he is still only 23, and will be for half of next season. He scored 40 points in his 21 year old season. It would be quite the unusual thing for his 21 year old season to be his peak. Big forwards like him usually peak around 26-27. Small speedy players usually start hitting their peak earlier.

 

[B17 Apricots]

Besides signing Trocheck and dumping Howden, what good moves has Drury made?

The Nemeth signing was pretty good

 

[RangersFan1994]

The Nemeth signing was pretty good

The trade was good only tp not give Emberson a chance to play only to lose him on waivers

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Podkozin would have been a nice buy low pickup. Future team with him Cuylle and Othmann on a line would be hard to play against.

 

[bernmeister]

Its summer and its raining and I am bored......Laine?? sober , motivated and a sniper.. Can not believe his contract is 8m. On Mika's right side. 2 yrs left. Need 50% retainment. ????

no

 

[Gordon Bombay]

I call him and Kreider the world’s best third line ever.

I think if we detached the Siamese twins we would see quite the improvement in Kreider. You put him with Trocheck and you'll see a different player

 

[will1066]

Igor ranked #1 in NHL Network's Top 10 goalies.