Roster Building Thread - Part XI (Off-season edition)

[McRanger92]

dude just say "i hate kakko and refuse to admit he provides any value whatsoever." i can respect you having a poor view of him because he was 2oa and you're disappointed by the lack of production.

but this narrative that he sucks is so overblown it's embarrassing.


nobody here is arguing that Kakko is on the verge of breaking out into a superstar or even a top 6 player. but the guy scored 40 ES points in his age 22 season, had a weak year last year:
- an effective but snake it run with 20-93c - brutal leg injury
- came back and played with terrible centers (and Chytil coming back into the fold after lengthy absence)

and now has signed a show me deal.

Yes I hate Kakko because I fairly criticized him. The guy's been a disappointment, Id like to see him moved for player that better fits our needs on the 3rd line. Sue me.

 

[irishlaxburger2]

So, does Florida winning out to bed the elite center depth argument? Their 2C is Evan friggin Rodrigues. Hate in Zib all you want, but he’s tiers above Rodrigues.

Our forwards are fine. I’d prefer to have an elite winger that performed in the playoffs than Panarin but that’s not happening.

Fix the defense. It’s the only reasonable option. Need to replace both Trouba and Lindgren with competent players and give Jones a ton of run all year next year. Add at the deadline again.

Their 1C >>>>>>>> our 1C, and frankly that matters more than any other single position on the ice

 

[djzbad]

No he was totally serious. I told him it didn't feel that way on my end. We spoke for 5 minutes. Very nice guy. Must feel on top of the world today. Was there for our game 3 OT win.

That’s actually awesome!

 

[bhamill]

The comparison is what Colton will do next year vs. what Kakko will do next year. Who cares what Kakko does in 4 years.

The other thing is Colton has 3 years of control and Kakko has 1, at which point you will have to pay him for potential and not actual results in hopes of that potential realizing.

I care what our team would look like in 4 years, so I care about what Kakko will look like in his 26 year old season as compared to what Colton will look like in his 31 year old season. Kakko is still RFA at the end of this deal. If we aren't getting any return on Kakko's upside in trades NOW (we aren't even getting value for the season he had PRIOR to this one in the trades people are talking about), what's the difference if we wait till after this coming season or at least the TDL?
Again I'm fine with trading Kakko. I'm NOT fine with selling low on Kakko.

 

[LOFIN]

Their 1C >>>>>>>> our 1C, and frankly that matters more than any other single position on the ice

There's also nothing you can really do about it, other than try to get more out of Zibanejad. That's the biggest project for Laviolette next season.

 

[NickyFotiu]

That’s actually awesome!

It was encouraging because I felt like we played like crap but we should remember we basically lost 3 1 goal games.

 

[noncents]

Yes I hate Kakko because I fairly criticized him. The guy's been a disappointment, Id like to see him moved for player that better fits our needs on the 3rd line. Sue me.

the fact that you're not responding to the actual argument about his production last year and injury this year is telling.

btw equating a freak knee injury with poor conditioning isn't "fair criticism."

 

[bhamill]

Yeah this is also the wrong way to look at it because usage is a thing...

View attachment 887068

View attachment 887071

Colton has been a better (or at least more efficient) goal scorer in every season they've overlapped outside of the last one.

Yeah, but Kakko was 19 years old when they started overlapping. Hahahaha. Colton was 24.
And even including Kakko's teenaged years in the NHL he's got a slightly higher goals per 60 than Colton. This is sure not making the case for Colton being an objectively better goal scorer...

 

[irishlaxburger2]

There's also nothing you can really do about it, other than try to get more out of Zibanejad. That's the biggest project for Laviolette next season.

Yep, there are probably 5-10 centers in the entire world capable of being a Cup winning 1C. We don’t have one. Getting one is close to impossible outside of draft or UFA. None are UFAs this offseason. We’re stuck with our very inferior version. And we probably don’t win a Cup until we can find a fix.

 

[bhamill]

I don't think Colton for Kakko is selling low. Colton's forechecking is a lot more valuable to the 24-25 New York Rangers than Kakko's defensive conscience and soulless board hugging, even if Kakko outscores him.

I respect you opinion, and I disagree with it. IMO Kakko is the better, younger and cheaper player. The cheaper part is actually not opinion. Colton is more than 50% more expensive than him.

 

[NickyFotiu]

kakko literally put up 40 ES points playing 3rd line minutes last year. That's production. that's depth scoring. where's the issue with his play vs cap hit last year?

then: this year he played with Zib and Kreider when the whole line was snakebit, then had a brutal leg injury and returned to play with bonino, brodzinski and wennberg who literally couldn't score if their lives depended on it.

He's not a star. but he's effective and if he has a C he gels with he can put up depth scoring at ES while tilting the ice.

again, if moving him improves the team then i have no issue with it. but people act like he's a net negative and it's so off.

LOL if we are talking literally than KK literally put up 37 EV points in 2022-23 not 40. I was very pleased with KK's effort in 2022-23. That season is not the issue. The issue was this season and possibly all of his playoffs.

I assume you want him to play more like 2022-23 than 2023-24 so I think our hopes are the same. The only thing I do not like is when everyone but KK gets blame for his play.

 

[Synergy27]

At 2C, sure, Zibanejad is tiers above most.

And Barkov, McDavid, and most 1C's on contenders are well above Trocheck.

On balance, I still think our center depth is quite good and it’s not the reason they lost.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yeah, but Kakko was 19 years old when they started overlapping. Hahahaha. Colton was 24.
And even including Kakko's teenaged years in the NHL he's got a slightly higher goals per 60 than Colton. This is sure not making the case for Colton being an objectively better goal scorer...

I don't think the age gap is really that big of a deal.

We know Kakko has gotten time in the top 6 in the last 2 seasons. I don't think Colton saw much (if any) time playing in those spots on pretty loaded squads. I think he probably does better playing with Mika and Kreider than Kakko did (and no, I'm not suggesting that as a potential solution.)

At a certain point, guys are just what they are. I don't think Colton is going to get any better and I'm not even saying that he's a better overall player, he's just been undeniably better at scoring goals and generating chances and does things that Kakko just doesn't/can't do.

 

[Luger]

I know people say they don't want Kane, but he was still almost a PPG player last season. He got 57 pts in 73 games the year before with the additional 6 points in 7 playoff games. I think if you keep him in the middle-6 and match him up against a line that isn't the opponents' best defensively (not necessarily awful players, just not their top defenders), he can be very effective.

We tried to ride him in the 2023 playoffs as a star, but that can't happen at the age of 35. But if he's part of a supporting cast, that's a whole different story. Is he really going to be worse than Raslovic? Come on! And if he will, we can trade another 4th round pick at the TDL for another Roslovic, while burring Kane in the bottom-6.

It also looks like he's willing to sign here for a small cap hit. If he gets $1.5M, what's the risk here? Even if he's so bad that he has to be a healthy scratch (extremely unlikely), that cap hit is worth it to have an injury replacement.

OTOH, if he can play on par with last year, we get a quality second line player at a cap hit only marginally more than Brodzinski.

You can say, "why not sign someone bigger, tougher?" But some of it is about cap management. If we can get a guy who scores 60 points at. $1.5M cap hit, that's a big win. It also doesn't prevent the Rangers from getting someone younger, bigger because his cap hit is so low.

 

[irishlaxburger2]

So, does Florida winning put to bed the elite center depth argument? Their 2C is Evan friggin Rodrigues. Hate on Zib all you want, but he’s tiers above Rodrigues.

Our forwards are fine. I’d prefer to have an elite winger that performed in the playoffs than Panarin but that’s not happening.

Fix the defense. It’s the only reasonable option. Need to replace both Trouba and Lindgren with competent players and give Jones a ton of run all year next year. Add at the deadline again.

Also, Evan Rodriguez had 15 points in 24 playoff games and was a 60% xGF player (vs 51% when he wasn’t on the ice for Florida) this postseason.

Evan Rodriguez was better than like 90% of our forwards, including our 1C.

 

[Atax]

I swear, Mika never helps his case with some of the things he says. His latest quote is saying how his line needs a passer for them to do better. A 8.5 mil center saying his line needs a passer. The center.

Thats just hockey folks.

 

[McRanger92]

the fact that you're not responding to the actual argument about his production last year and injury this year is telling.

btw equating a freak knee injury with poor conditioning isn't "fair criticism."

We can throw a parade for Kakko scoring 40 points, but that's not doing anything to increase the Rangers chances of winning a Cup.

And if you watch the play he got hurt on, Kakko gets bodied by Erik Johnson battling toward the boards and that's why he falls awkwardly. I dont think he's as conditioned as he could be. That's been a criticism of Kakko for a while now so it's not like I made it up to rag on the guy.

 

[bhamill]

I don't think the age gap is really that big of a deal.

We know Kakko has gotten time in the top 6 in the last 2 seasons. I don't think Colton saw much (if any) time playing in those spots on pretty loaded squads. I think he probably does better playing with Mika and Kreider than Kakko did (and no, I'm not suggesting that as a potential solution.)

At a certain point, guys are just what they are. I don't think Colton is going to get any better and I'm not even saying that he's a better overall player, he's just been undeniably better at scoring goals and generating chances and does things that Kakko just doesn't/can't do.

five years is definitely a big deal. Colton didnt make the NHL till he was 24. Kakko will be starting his 7th season. We can't even apples to apples their output relative to age for two more years...
Kakko has been mostly on the 3rd line, just like Colton. If Colton was "objectively better at scoring goals" then why has he never gotten a chance in the top six? Guess he didn't earn it. Isn't that what we've said about our own young(er) players?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I know people say they don't want Kane, but he was still almost a PPG player last season. He got 57 pts in 73 games the year before with the additional 6 points in 7 playoff games. I think if you keep him in the middle-6 and match him up against a line that isn't the opponents' best defensively (not necessarily awful players, just not their top defenders), he can be very effective.

We tried to ride him in the 2023 playoffs as a star, but that can't happen at the age of 35. But if he's part of a supporting cast, that's a whole different story. Is he really going to be worse than Raslovic? Come on! And if he will, we can trade another 4th round pick at the TDL for another Roslovic, while burring Kane in the bottom-6.

It also looks like he's willing to sign here for a small cap hit. If he gets $1.5M, what's the risk here? Even if he's so bad that he has to be a healthy scratch (extremely unlikely), that cap hit is worth it to have an injury replacement.

OTOH, if he can play on par with last year, we get a quality second line player at a cap hit only marginally more than Brodzinski.

Let me think about this......hmmmmmmm -- NO!!!

 

[irishlaxburger2]

I swear, Mika never helps his case with some of the things he says. His latest quote is saying how his line needs a passer for them to do better. A 8.5 mil center saying his line needs a passer. The center.

Thats just hockey folks.

He's a RW masquerading as a C. Someone needs to get him onboard with that idea.

If you play him at wing, he literally can't get any worse 5v5 and you still get all the situational hockey he's actually good at.

We need to do everything possible to get a real 1C and stop acting like a 1RW is the answer.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I swear, Mika never helps his case with some of the things he says. His latest quote is saying how his line needs a passer for them to do better. A 8.5 mil center saying his line needs a passer. The center.

Thats just hockey folks.

I mean goal scoring centers are a thing now and there are plenty of wingers over the last 15 years who have done things for their line that a "traditional" center will do. On that end, I don't think it's really tone deaf.

I think he's way off in his assessment with what his line needs. His line needs a passer, a transporter, a forechecker and someone who isn't afraid to get into the paint.

Said it before, his line needs Crosby. There are guys out there who can check a box, maybe 2 but theres no one out there who can do all 4.

 

[noncents]

LOL if we are talking literally than KK literally put up 37 EV points in 2022-23 not 40. I was very pleased with KK's effort in 2022-23. That season is not the issue. The issue was this season and possibly all of his playoffs.

I assume you want him to play more like 2022-23 than 2023-24 so I think our hopes are the same. The only thing I do not like is when everyone but KK gets blame for his play.

okay if we're talking literally then please clarify - you were pleased with Kakkos *effort* last year, or his *production*? Do you acknowledge that ES point production is sometimes dependent on variance like on ice shooting %?

Secondly - you've said that the issue is last year as opposed to 22-23. in your mind, if he's capable of scoring 37 points at ES with 3rd line minutes, what was the reason for his worse production last year relative to the year before? You use the word effort and it seems to imply that you think the player chose not to try hard enough to score, to succeed.

i don't want to speak for you though so i present the question:

knowing as we do that Kakko can put up ~40 points at even strength with 3rd line minutes and deployment, what was the reason he failed to do so this past year?

 

[McRanger92]

I think my main issue with Kakko is that the Rangers cleared the decks for him to have opportunities very early on (Buch trade) and we've been waiting for him to grab it for 3 years. To the detriment of our ability to win a Cup.

I'm just tired of the excuses, I'm tired of the deadline RW deals and I'm tired of knowing our ceiling and still running it back with the same supporting cast.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

He's a RW masquerading as a C. Someone needs to get him onboard with that idea.

If you play him at wing, he literally can't get any worse 5v5 and you still get all the situational hockey he's actually good at.

We need to do everything possible to get a real 1C and stop acting like a 1RW is the answer.

Kreider - Trocheck - Zibanejad
Panarin - Zegras - Lafreniere

 

[JimmyG89]

I swear, Mika never helps his case with some of the things he says. His latest quote is saying how his line needs a passer for them to do better. A 8.5 mil center saying his line needs a passer. The center.

Thats just hockey folks.

For all the things Kreider has turned himself into, playmaker is not one of them. He's an okay passer. You can't just have your center be the only one that can set guys up on a line. It's kind of hard for him to be a scorer when you don't have someone that can set him up on his own line.