Roster Building thread - Part X - (TDL edition)

[Vitto79]

What’s a Gus resign look like ?
2 x2 mil ?

 

[bobbop]

Kakko desperately needs a change of scenery. The expectations in New York have always been a burden. I just don’t think you can get value for him at the trade deadline. I might be wrong. Wait until the summer and there will be plenty of options. One to consider this summer would be Dallas, the preeminent NHL employer of Finnish players.

If Chytil is not going to be able to come back next year, a Zegras deal makes a lot of sense. Again, that’s a summer deal.

The Rangers have the fifth best goals allowed average in the league. The back end is hardly a black hole. Again, any overhaul would happen in the summer. The extent of any overhaul depends on playoff performance. If there is an overhaul, I would be watching closely at the team expanding Schneider’s roles and responsibilities.

 

[effen]

He probably has the 2nd best hands on the team.
He's probably one of the stronger players on the team.
He's also one of our better forecheckers, for being as slow as he is...
If he was as fast as Laf, he would be our best player.

I just dont think you watch the games.

Ive seen no evidence of any of your points.

The hands thing never in his career. Ever. The strength and forechecking thing is two years old from when he'd spin on the boards to nowhere doing a homeless mans Jagr impersonation while never facing the net.

He spent the entirety of his time this year before his injury getting knocked over on the boards, how exactly do you not remember that.

What you wrote is frankly IMO messageboard narratives that either way, way out of date or just hope. For a guy in his 5th year with 11 points in 40 games.

 

[Boris Zubov]

He does impact games, just not in the usual way a #2 pick does. Look up our record with and without him, look at our 3rd line with and without him. He may not be scoring at a great rate but he is having an impact. As i said before, you take his draft number out of the equation and he's giving us value for his contract. People lament the Buch deal, this has the potential to be way worse. A lot of people on here were trying to dump Lafreniere for scraps before the season, they pointed to Kakko being better, a lot can change in a year.

I'm not buying Kakko is the key to our winning record. We haven't played that much differently with him in or out of the lineup. I'm not sold on the core to begin with & his presence isn't why the team wins 3-2 or loses 3-2.

Unfortunately, his draft position isn't going away & right now he's a bust of 2OA pick. It's up to him to salvage his career & become productive. Time is running out on him, but I don't want him traded when his value is at its lowest...nor do I want him traded for a rental. But I'm also not afraid to offer him in a legit hockey trade if one materializes.

 

[Fitzy]

One wonders if NYRs advancement to a top 5 team on the penalty kill and its reduction in PP efficiency are coincidences, since they coincided with PLs shift to a more defensive emphasis at even strength.

We’ve been scoring fewer and letting in fewer, both at even strength and on special teams. That’s interesting, if nothing else.

 

[effen]

I'm not buying Kakko is the key to our winning record. We haven't played that much differently with him in or out of the lineup. I'm not sold on the core to begin with & his presence isn't why the team wins 3-2 or loses 3-2.

Unfortunately, his draft position isn't going away & right now he's a bust of 2OA pick. It's up to him to salvage his career & become productive. Time is running out on him, but I don't want him traded when his value is at its lowest...nor do I want him traded for a rental. But I'm also not afraid to offer him in a legit hockey trade if one materializes.

There's a lot of variance in hockey games and Kakko is an 8th-10th forward replacing non-NHLers. Of course the team is going to play better with an NHL level forward than an AHL level forward. He's just a average third liner, like a lot of very average third liners.

 

[bhamill]

If its a Zegras or Guentzel that will be here for some time I'm ok with it, but Kakko is gonna be the next Buch if we move him for something dumb. He is the linchpin on our 3rd line.


I hope so, but i also hope they are of the younger variety that can help for more than this year.

I really don’t know that Zegras is an answer. He’s more like a project.
If he played here he’d be getting ROASTED by the fans. He’s like a poor man’s bad version of Mika. Plays soft, no defense, and scores less too. I honestly would NOT trade KK for him straight up. Maybe this shit year is a wake-up for Zegras, maybe not. But this fan base would have been out for BLOOD with the season he’s had.

 

[EdJovanovski]

PP1
———-—Kreider——
Panarin—Trocheck—Lafreniere
—————Fox

PP2
—————Rempe
Zibanejad—Brodzinski-Kakko
———Gustafsson——

 

[IDvsEGO]

Ive seen no evidence of any of your points.

The hands thing never in his career. Ever. The strength and forechecking thing is two years old from when he'd spin on the boards to nowhere doing a homeless mans Jagr impersonation while never facing the net.

He spent the entirety of his time this year before his injury getting knocked over on the boards, how exactly do you not remember that.

What you wrote is frankly IMO messageboard narratives that either way, way out of date or just hope. For a guy in his 5th year with 11 points in 40 games.

Watch how often he comes out of a board battle with the puck. Thats been a thing since his 2nd year. Thats physical strength.

His hands. You can't forecheck the way he does without having insane hands. he stickhandles in tight, because he's got good hands.

This is why I have a problem with people who say they watch and use the eye test, but can't actually figure out what skills are used when players do specific things...

PP1
———-—Kreider——
Panarin—Trocheck—Lafreniere
—————Fox

PP2
—————Rempe
Zibanejad—Brodzinski-Kakko
———Gustafsson——

I hate agreeing with you.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Watch how often he comes out of a board battle with the puck. Thats been a thing since his 2nd year. Thats physical strength.

His hands. You can't forecheck the way he does without having insane hands. he stickhandles in tight, because he's got good hands.

This is why I have a problem with people who say they watch and use the eye test, but can't actually figure out what skills are used when players do specific things...

That might've been true in previous seasons, but this year, pre & post injury, he's had trouble just staying on his feet. Earlier in the season it was comical....during GDTs we'd joke if he actually completed a shift without getting knocked on his ass.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Watch how often he comes out of a board battle with the puck. Thats been a thing since his 2nd year. Thats physical strength.

His hands. You can't forecheck the way he does without having insane hands. he stickhandles in tight, because he's got good hands.

This is why I have a problem with people who say they watch and use the eye test, but can't actually figure out what skills are used when players do specific things...


I hate agreeing with you.

His hands are fine but he can’t move well enough and his vision and playmaking ability is below average so the puck rarely gets to the dangerous areas of the ice because of him.

 

[bhamill]

His draft position has definitely lead to disappointment, especially when he's mostly produced like a 4th rounder. My biggest issue with him is the lack of improvement, especially with his skating. He doesn't move the needle or impact games. He's just kind of there. Even when he teases us with some extended puck possession or fancy stick handling, 99 times out of a hundred it doesn't lead to anything.

Frankly, I'd be shocked if he ever figures it out...he is who is he at this point. He needs to decide if he can become a Fast/Erixon type player & impact games that way instead.

I get what you are saying, but that’s exaggeration. How many 4th ROUNDERS actually even make the NHL? Never mind score 40 mostly 5v5 points while playing a very good defensive game at 22 years old. He’s still producing like a 1st rounder, but certainly not what you expect from a 2OA.

 

[IDvsEGO]

That might've been true in previous seasons, but this year, pre & post injury, he's had trouble just staying on his feet. Earlier in the season it was comical....during GDTs we'd joke if he actually completed a shift without getting knocked on his ass.

The first few games back from injury yeah he was absolutely a little too wobbly.

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Thats not a move someone who doesn't have hands/vision/strength can pull off even if it wasn't successful.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Quick signed Dylan Garand on block?

I hope not

 

[Boris Zubov]

I get what you are saying, but that’s exaggeration. How many 4th ROUNDERS actually even make the NHL? Never mind score 40 mostly 5v5 points while playing a very good defensive game at 22 years old. He’s still producing like a 1st rounder, but certainly not what you expect from a 2OA.

He has 11 points...he's clearly not producing like a 1st rounder this season. His skating just isn't good enough, that's his biggest problem physically....but I still think the bigger problem is between his ears. As @bobbop said, he is a perfect change of scenery candidate. New York can be overwhelming for a lot of guys.

The first few games back from injury yeah he was absolutely a little too wobbly.

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Thats not a move someone who doesn't have hands/vision/strength can pull off even if it wasn't successful.

It wasn't just the first few games back from injury...it was glaringly worse early in the season.

That clip you posted sums up his career in a nutshell. All that work & energy, usually with zero results.

 

[Guyute]

I'm in the trade for Zegras camp, defense be-damned. Make Mika the defensive-minded 3rd line center!

 

[bhamill]

He has 11 points...he's clearly not producing like a 1st rounder this season. His skating just isn't good enough, that's his biggest problem physically....but I still think the bigger problem is between his ears. As @bobbop said, he is a perfect change of scenery candidate. New York can be overwhelming for a lot of guys.


It wasn't just the first few games back from injury...it was glaringly worse early in the season.

That clip you posted sums up his career in a nutshell. All that work & energy, usually with zero results.

11 points in half a season played (40 games) including coming back from a bad knee injury. In his 22 year old season. Yes. That’s 1st rounder territory. In no way can you say that’s normal for a 4th rounder. Hahahahaha.
Zegras has 7 points, guess he’s produced like a 6th rounder… hahaha. He extrapolates to 14 points in the same number of games as KK has played, and unlike KK brings zero else. They are both clearly 1st round talents. Neither would meet expectations for a 2OA.

 

[effen]

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Thats not a move someone who doesn't have hands/vision/strength can pull off even if it wasn't successful.

The best thing he did there was take inside position against the defender initially. Everything else is an effort play he makes far too few of that I expect every NHL level bottom sixer to be able to do at least occasionally.

If he played like that more everyone would probably be very happy. There's a glaring hole on the roster for dogged forecheckers.

Ive still seen no evidence of great hands. Maybe we have different definitions. I also strongly suspected he defaults to strength and board play because he gets swallowed up being as slow as he is so we think it's a choice rather than inevitable.

 

[UnSandvich]

There sure is a ton of whining about Kakko in this thread while ignoring the fact that he's never actually been the problem.

 

[DanielBrassard]

11 points in half a season played (40 games) including coming back from a bad knee injury. In his 22 year old season. Yes. That’s 1st rounder territory. In no way can you say that’s normal for a 4th rounder. Hahahahaha.
Zegras has 7 points, guess he’s produced like a 6th rounder… hahaha. He extrapolates to 14 points in the same number of games as KK has played, and unlike KK brings zero else. They are both clearly 1st round talents. Neither would meet expectations for a 2OA.

Yes, focusing on just this season, a season where one of them has played 1/3 of the games is complete reasonable when they both have a larger body of work to analyze. Kakko doesn’t come close to Zegras in terms of production over the course of their careers.

 

[RGY]

If you're going continue to accuse me of hating on Kane, the onus is on you to prove it. Please...I encourage you to go back & search my post history. But the fact that you're on some high horse because you might've been right about the dude is the creepy part. My issue has always been your spamming the boards about Kane, not the player himself. I started off trying to joke with you about this, but you had no sense of humor & decided it was personal. So you continue to think that, & in turn I've played into it, but again I assure it was never personal. Since it isn't serving either of us or the board, how bout we call a cease fire? I've mentioned in the past, before the Kane thing, I always enjoyed reading your posts.

But you know what's really funny & ironic, is that I actually agree with you...in hindsight we should've signed him for nothing when we had the chance since now we're in the same position we were at the start of the season. Kakko, like clockwork, hasn't progressed & Wheeler was clearly toast. The GM obviously thought otherwise. He wasn't willing to wait for the guy & even when it was clear we needed a RW, he wasn't interested in clearing salary for him. Now that same GM is about to trade assets for a top 6 forward & a 3C...when in reality we need an upgrade in our top 4.

However, I'm still not convinced Kane pushes us over the top, even playing like he has. He doesn't fix Mika's issues & he doesn't play a lick of defense. These were the same issues I had at the deadline last year...that the player wasn't a fit because he didn't solve any of the team's existing problems. Instead they shoehorned him into an already succesful powerplay when it was clear it wasn't working.

The last two paragraphs I can agree with the sentiment. I understand the positions. Just like I have understood the positions of many of the people either against signing Kane or just thinking its not a fit. Obviously i feel differently and its because of the bolded. That’s the most frustrating part. To me it was a poor evaluation and management of assets. At the time he was set to sign (late November) we were off to one of our best starts in franchise history. To the point of that we were pretty destined on making the playoffs with this group again, even if we hit some adversity, which of course happened in late December thru January. So with that in mind, I was hoping we could eliminate one need to address at the deadline by spending only money, because I didn’t think Wheeler was ever going to be the answer even if he stayed healthy. Kakko, who i still believe in, to me was better suited to round out the top 9 on the 3rd line in a hybrid checking role, which is pretty much ringing true now. Maybe Kane wouldn’t sign for $2 million or less to be here — maybe I have that completely wrong, although a lot of signs pointed to him willing to compromise such as not having to move his family again, training in NY over the summer. And to your point, instead of being able to focus on a top 4 D right now and a cheaper 3C, we really do need to consider RW and 3C.

To your first paragraph, I agree, let’s call a truce. I hate arguing with fellow Rangers fans. We want the same thing. I will do my best not to belabor the points on Kane. My recent posts have shifted to focusing on the realistic targets. And quite frankly once we get past deadline day, you won’t hear me mention Kane unless its out of frustration after a loss (may have had a few pops at that point). Because once we get past the deadline, the team is the team. This is who we go to war with and hope for the best.

 

[Boris Zubov]

11 points in half a season played (40 games) including coming back from a bad knee injury. In his 22 year old season. Yes. That’s 1st rounder territory. In no way can you say that’s normal for a 4th rounder. Hahahahaha.
Zegras has 7 points, guess he’s produced like a 6th rounder… hahaha. He extrapolates to 14 points in the same number of games as KK has played, and unlike KK brings zero else. They are both clearly 1st round talents. Neither would meet expectations for a 2OA.

Zegras' overall body of work is fine to this point for his draft position...also acceptable enough if he was a 2OA. Sure he's had a down year, but he's also been hurt. Kakko's career has been an enigma since Day 1...some things not his fault (QUINN!), but others he only has himself to blame. I do agree with you that I don't want to trade him for Zegras...even if the trade does make a little sense. Zegras strikes me a guy who would continue the country club culture already ingrained here.

 

[bhamill]

Yes, focusing on just this season, a season where one of them has played 1/3 of the games is complete reasonable when they both have a larger body of work to analyze. Kakko doesn’t come close to Zegras in terms of production over the course of their careers.

The person I was replying on focused on just this season for Kakko, I did an apples to apples. I clearly said they were both 1st round talents. What is the issue?
BTW without PP1, Zegras scored about 8 points more than KK last year, the best year for both. Zegras isn’t getting PP1 here. Even if Zibs went the other way, Laf would be up.
As I said, I wouldn’t trade KK straight up for Zegras. Not last year, and certainly not this year.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Kakko desperately needs a change of scenery. The expectations in New York have always been a burden. I just don’t think you can get value for him at the trade deadline. I might be wrong. Wait until the summer and there will be plenty of options. One to consider this summer would be Dallas, the preeminent NHL employer of Finnish players.

If Chytil is not going to be able to come back next year, a Zegras deal makes a lot of sense. Again, that’s a summer deal.

The Rangers have the fifth best goals allowed average in the league. The back end is hardly a black hole. Again, any overhaul would happen in the summer. The extent of any overhaul depends on playoff performance. If there is an overhaul, I would be watching closely at the team expanding Schneider’s roles and responsibilities.

agreed

 

[eco's bones]

The production is there from Kreider on special teams. At 5v5 he is just plain bad. Especially in his own end. I don’t know if he is hurt, or its a matter of father time, or even just him managing his efforts knowing at this juncture the rigors of a long season. But I dont see Zibanejad’s efforts the same as others. I have read opinions that Zibanejad looks disengaged and disinterested — I actually have that assessment of Kreider. I think Zibanejad, to a point, has been more physical than in years past. That could be driven by frustration but I just see him playing with the effort and the results are not there. I also think he isn’t shooting enough to break out of the 5v5 slump. Kreider on the other hand is a black hole in his own end with the board play and spatial coverage. He constantly p***yfoots plays with the puck in his own end. He did it multiple times last night. He just looks completely soft out there. He doesn’t finish checks, like ever. When he does they just seem so random. Most of the time its a fly by for him.

Kreider is and has been my favorite player since he broke in. But he has been polarizing these past couple years, this year more than any other year.

It's okay. I see it the other way around though but whatever the team is doing very well so to some degree one might say critiquing either is kind of nitpicking. Most fans would love to have our problems with their teams in the position the Rangers are.