Roster Building thread - Part X - (TDL edition)

[mas0764]

Dude, you have to get past the rebuild. This team has been out of the rebuild for like 3 seasons now. They're first overall in the league with less than 10 games until the playoffs.

What is the point of a rebuild anyway, if not to have a team capable of winning the President's Trophy? Seriously man, I feel like you're missing out on what is a really good team having a great season because they're not perfect. No team is in today's NHL. Should we have dug deeper into the rebuild and ended up like Buffalo? This team rebuilt, whether you like the way they did it or not, and are back to being an elite team in the league.

This team has elite talent, has a Hart candidate this year, a top 2 D man in the league and a goalie capable of carrying a team. It's not some smoke and mirrors, this is a good team with as good a chance as any of the other top teams to realistically win the cup this season.

The question was asked why people are down on this team’s sustained window of being really, really good.

Thats the answer.

It’s that many people aren’t convinced they can win it all. There is an element of paper tiger here and a lot of people sense it. It is also because of their relatively poor track record of developing offensive talent.

Thats why the media “hates” us too by the way. It’s not really cause they don’t want the NY Rangers to succeed. These people watch a lot of hockey without blue and red colored glasses on, and they see the same thing. More obvious flaws than your average Presidents winner.

That’s the truth about this team. It can also win a Cup. I’m enjoying it, but I’m also not delusional. This team isn’t the favorite whether it wins the Presidents trophy or not.

 

[mas0764]

You should be skeptical. Hell, you should be skeptical about ANY of the 32 teams winning the Cup. Everyone was talking about the Devils at the beginning of the year. Look where they're at. There's a 3% chance of winning the Cup for every team, every year.

Is this team in the conversation of the top 5 or 6 teams vying for that? Of course it is.

I don’t disagree that they are in the conversation. I’d want numbers to back this up but it seems like to my personal eye test this is their best iteration of the three year window, but it’s mostly due to the ascendance of the Panarin line to god mode and at least to the Mika line being good at shutting teams down. I’m very concerned that line cannot score though. If the line was Kreider-Mika-Kakko and was even close to the Panarin line’s dominance I would feel way better.

 

[mas0764]

Lindgren body of work isn’t 60-70% of 1 bad season… yes he gets injured, yes he plays thru injuries, but there was absolutely no one complaining about him prior to this season.
And at 26 years old, he has a lot more in the tank.
Cap is going up, I’d absolutely sign him.
He doesn’t have to be foxs partners through the entirety of the deal.
He gives you some versatility. Maybe he becomes a solid partner with Schneider? Or a great mentor on 3rd pair for a kid….
What we have and what’s out there isn’t great….
I’m not trading Lindgren til LD is more stable as a whole

Laf/panarin/zibby/lindgren/kakko//schneider/kreider// there were even some that wanted to deal shesty when he went thru a rough stretch.
when your fan base is so reactionary it’s pretty hard to build a cohesive corp….
Some care more for ELC/salary cap and youth in the system then the actual on ice product( which is the Main thing)

I have said I’m open to trading Lindgren but the one who really has to go is Trouba for his cost almost entirely.

If you could get Lindgren back cheap, he has a better track record than Trouba before this year and he could be sheltered on the third pair if he’s not expensive. I would want to make sure it’s a contract I can get out of though. No NMCs.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

I am curious about how this team compares 5v5 vs the league this year vs last year.

This team just looks better. Our PP was white hot the first couple of months this year but cooled off around December/January. After the January funk, the PP still wasn't good if I'm not mistaken but we still won a lot of games. It's picked up a bit over the past couple of weeks but still not where it was early on.

It's no secret the Rangers have one of the best PP units and while I don't have stats to back this up, I do feel like teams play more conservatively against us to stay out of the box. It's smart but you can't be as aggressive and most importantly, the Rangers are still winning.

That team last year just felt off after the Kane debacle and Gallant didn't seem to have an answer. This year, we still have issues but I feel like they're not as widespread compared to last year. This team has better chemistry. Also, the Eastern Conference was a gauntlet last season and that doesn't appear to be the case this year.

What do our 5v5 #s look like as a trend from the beginning of the season to now? I agree it's important but to what extent? I never hear any context around 5v5. Is it as simple as the top 5v5 teams always do well and the cup winners all are great 5v5? I would think trends and consistency matter.

Bottom line, I think 5v5 matters but there has to be more context.

You can compare using the link below. This morning I compared how the Rangers were 5v5 against the rest of the league. Last season the Rangers scored a total of 273 goals where 59 were power play and 8 were short handed. So 206 5v5 goals. Through 74 games Rangers have 190 5v5 goals.

I didn't go through every team, but from what I can see the Bruins, Devils, Knights, Oilers, Leafs, Stars, Kraken, Sabres and Panthers had more 5v5 goals last season.

So last season Rangers finished w the 10th most 5v5 goals. They are sitting at 6th now.

2022-23 NHL Summary | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the Eastern, Western Conference and Playoff series Standings, Statistics, Leaders and more for the 2022-23 NHL season on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[jerseyjinx94]

You can compare using the link below. This morning I compared how the Rangers were 5v5 against the rest of the league. Last season the Rangers scored a total of 273 goals where 59 were power play and 8 were short handed. So 206 5v5 goals. Through 74 games Rangers have 190 5v5 goals.

I didn't go through every team, but from what I can see the Bruins, Devils, Knights, Oilers, Leafs, Stars, Kraken, Sabres and Panthers had more 5v5 goals last season.

So last season Rangers finished w the 10th most 5v5 goals. They are sitting at 6th now.

2022-23 NHL Summary | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the Eastern, Western Conference and Playoff series Standings, Statistics, Leaders and more for the 2022-23 NHL season on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Does this account for 3v3, empty nets, 4v4?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

The question was asked why people are down on this team’s sustained window of being really, really good.

Thats the answer.

It’s that many people aren’t convinced they can win it all. There is an element of paper tiger here and a lot of people sense it. It is also because of their relatively poor track record of developing offensive talent.

Thats why the media “hates” us too by the way. It’s not really cause they don’t want the NY Rangers to succeed. These people watch a lot of hockey without blue and red colored glasses on, and they see the same thing. More obvious flaws than your average Presidents winner.

That’s the truth about this team. It can also win a Cup. I’m enjoying it, but I’m also not delusional. This team isn’t the favorite whether it wins the Presidents trophy or not.

I swear the Rangers would win the Cup and you’d say it was a fluke and be disappointed because you wanted to win multiple cups and don’t think they’re good enough.

At some point you have to let the negativity go. I do think you make good points in a vacuum re: team building. But you’re missing an element of it that doesn’t really show up in a box score, or in analytics. The team is deep at forward, has 8 NHL defensemen, one of the best goalies in the world and a good coach who runs a system.

There’s no reason to be negative right now.

We can pick apart little things and criticize players- Zibanejad, for one. But constantly saying Trouba sucks or Lindgren sucks. Well they play 40 min a night and were 1st in the league, so, I don’t know, maybe they don’t? Maybe they bring something to the table you’re not accounting for? Maybe certain guys have value in a playoff series but not really in the regular season?

It’s like if you’re kid gets an A- on a test and you yell at him or her for not Getting an A+. Come on

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

 

[Leonardo87]

I swear the Rangers would win the Cup and you’d say it was a fluke and be disappointed because you wanted to win multiple cups and don’t think they’re good enough.

At some point you have to let the negativity go. I do think you make good points in a vacuum re: team building. But you’re missing an element of it that doesn’t really show up in a box score, or in analytics. The team is deep at forward, has 8 NHL defensemen, one of the best goalies in the world and a good coach who runs a system.

There’s no reason to be negative right now.

Negativity needs to come down here with this team. Enjoy the ride.

 

[BBKers]

Is the like by Jim Ramsay an April Fools Day joke? Asking for a friend…

 

[Machinehead]

Negativity needs to come down here with this team. Enjoy the ride.

Before we do that, this is me if we end up playing Washington

 

[Gardner McKay]

Before we do that, this is me if we end up playing Washington

That's how I feel about Tampa.

 

[Leonardo87]

That's how I feel about Tampa.

Yeah don’t want Tampa first round. I know Machinehead says we match up better, but there is just some things that need to be avoided and that’s one of them, lol.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

I am curious about how this team compares 5v5 vs the league this year vs last year.

from NaturalStatTrick, our xGF% at 5-on-5:

2022-2023: 49.23 - 22nd place in the league
2023-2024: 48.15 - 24th place

so by this metric, our 5-on-5 play has not improved overall.

Our best active 5 players by this metric are Panarin, Lafreniere, Trochek, Fox, & Gustafsson. The worst 5 are Goodrow, Wennberg, Lindgren, Vesey, & Roslovic.

An interesting point is that last year Moneypuck gave NYR very poor chances in the playoffs. And they were right. However, this year, we currently have the best chance to win the cup in their model. I wonder what the difference is. Maybe their xGF% doesn't agree w NaturalStatTrick.

Edit - After checking, MoneyPuck has similar xGF to NST - so one wonders why they rank NYR playoff chances so high.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah don’t want Tampa first round. I know Machinehead says we match up better, but there is just some things that need to be avoided and that’s one of them, lol.

I understand the fear given their history, but they haven't been a particularly good team the last two years, and we've handled them in 2/3 games this year.

I'm worried about Philadelphia and Washington, right now, our two most likely matchups because f*** me I guess.

We're in a unique situation where I feel like we're going to be worse off against teams that can't score and are just going to skate straight at us because that's all they can do.

Washington has two games in hand on Philly and if they pull away with the #3 seed and they and Caorlina just ram into each other for a few games, that would be just fine.

I don't know if I have a particular preference between Philly and Washington hockey-wise, but I'm just sick of Washington. If we never played them in the playoffs again, fine.

 

[Machinehead]

from NaturalStatTrick, our xGF% at 5-on-5:

2022-2023: 49.23 - 22nd place in the league
2023-2024: 48.15 - 24th place

so by this metric, our 5-on-5 play has not improved overall.

Our best active 5 players by this metric are Panarin, Lafreniere, Trochek, Fox, & Gustafsson. The worst 5 are Goodrow, Wennberg, Lindgren, Vesey, & Roslovic.

An interesting point is that last year Moneypuck gave NYR very poor chances in the playoffs. And they were right. However, this year, we currently have the best chance to win the cup in their model. I wonder what the difference. Maybe their xGF% doesn't agree w NaturalStatTrick.

One of the things they pay a lot of mind to is who's hot and cold going in.

Last year, our xGF% was around middle of the pack and then absolutely tanked for Bedard the last 20 games.

This year, our rolling xGF% has roared straight uphill the last 10-15 games. Although, one of the main reasons it's done that is back in the lineup (sorry).

 

[Leonardo87]

I understand the fear given their history, but they haven't been a particularly good team the last two years, and we've handled them in 2/3 games this year.

I'm worried about Philadelphia and Washington, right now, our two most likely matchups because f*** me I guess.

We're in a unique situation where I feel like we're going to be worse off against teams that can't score and are just going to skate straight at us because that's all they can do.

Washington has two games in hand on Philly and if they pull away with the #3 seed and they and Caorlina just ram into each other for a few games, that would be just fine.

I don't know if I have a particular preference between Philly and Washington hockey-wise, but I'm just sick of Washington. If we never played them in the playoffs again, fine.

I still have PTSD (Post-Traumatic Strome Disorder), and watching him on the Ducks who is now referred to as Stroke by the fans has not helped my PTSD, lol

 

[TominNC]

It’s not the example of doing a full rebuild. Thats the dishonesty part. You are citing an incompetent franchise to scare people off a rebuild with the spectre of a poorly run franchise that can’t ever do anything right, just like Arizona.

We are never, ever in danger of a sustained period of complete irrelevance for many reasons. Our history, original 6 status, market, willingness to spend, and attractiveness to free agents all guarantee we will never be Buffalo or Arizona. Dropping them into the argument for rhetorical purposes is dishonesty.

I dunno, how come you didn’t cite Colorado? Oh.

It’s not the example of doing a full rebuild. Thats the dishonesty part. You are citing an incompetent franchise to scare people off a rebuild with the spectre of a poorly run franchise that can’t ever do anything right, just like Arizona.

We are never, ever in danger of a sustained period of complete irrelevance for many reasons. Our history, original 6 status, market, willingness to spend, and attractiveness to free agents all guarantee we will never be Buffalo or Arizona. Dropping them into the argument for rhetorical purposes is dishonesty.

I dunno, how come you didn’t cite Colorado? Oh

It’s not the example of doing a full rebuild. Thats the dishonesty part. You are citing an incompetent franchise to scare people off a rebuild with the spectre of a poorly run franchise that can’t ever do anything right, just like Arizona.

We are never, ever in danger of a sustained period of complete irrelevance for many reasons. Our history, original 6 status, market, willingness to spend, and attractiveness to free agents all guarantee we will never be Buffalo or Arizona. Dropping them into the argument for rhetorical purposes is dishonesty.

I dunno, how come you didn’t cite Colorado? Oh.

You cherry pick your example, I’ll cherry pick mine. Goes to show there’s not one way to do things and one guaranteed result. However it has been years since the rebuild here so why continue to harangue us with complaints.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Lindgren body of work isn’t 60-70% of 1 bad season… yes he gets injured, yes he plays thru injuries, but there was absolutely no one complaining about him prior to this season.
And at 26 years old, he has a lot more in the tank.
Cap is going up, I’d absolutely sign him.
He doesn’t have to be foxs partners through the entirety of the deal.
He gives you some versatility. Maybe he becomes a solid partner with Schneider? Or a great mentor on 3rd pair for a kid….
What we have and what’s out there isn’t great….
I’m not trading Lindgren til LD is more stable as a whole

Laf/panarin/zibby/lindgren/kakko//schneider/kreider// there were even some that wanted to deal shesty when he went thru a rough stretch.
when your fan base is so reactionary it’s pretty hard to build a cohesive corp….
Some care more for ELC/salary cap and youth in the system then the actual on ice product( which is the Main thing)

He hasn’t been horrible for just 70% of this season, it’s been basically the entire year.

I think there have been quite a few of us who have wanted him away from
Fox for a while (more than just this year.) his overall game has been ass this year but his offensive game has always been ass. We’ve wanted someone better at it than him to partner with Fox so that Fox isn’t getting held back at ES.

He would be a terrible partner for Schneider and even then, 4.5 is too much for a bottom pairing D.

Lindgren even at 26 would be another Girardi or Staal. We can’t just ignore the injury history and subsequent decline in play because he was pretty good at one point. Currently he is not good and that’s a problem. It’s an even bigger problem because he has negatively impacted Fox (and he did last year too, Fox wins a Norris last year with a better partner instead of finishing second.)

You can bet he will stay shoehorned next to Fox if he is kept around. I really hope the FO is able to separate their personal feelings about the guy from who he is on the ice:

 

[TominNC]

You can compare using the link below. This morning I compared how the Rangers were 5v5 against the rest of the league. Last season the Rangers scored a total of 273 goals where 59 were power play and 8 were short handed. So 206 5v5 goals. Through 74 games Rangers have 190 5v5 goals.

I didn't go through every team, but from what I can see the Bruins, Devils, Knights, Oilers, Leafs, Stars, Kraken, Sabres and Panthers had more 5v5 goals last season.

So last season Rangers finished w the 10th most 5v5 goals. They are sitting at 6th now.

2022-23 NHL Summary | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the Eastern, Western Conference and Playoff series Standings, Statistics, Leaders and more for the 2022-23 NHL season on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Thanks. But we’re still beat over the head with the 5v5 thing. We do score even strength. It’s not just Igor and the PP

 

[SA16]

You can compare using the link below. This morning I compared how the Rangers were 5v5 against the rest of the league. Last season the Rangers scored a total of 273 goals where 59 were power play and 8 were short handed. So 206 5v5 goals. Through 74 games Rangers have 190 5v5 goals.

I didn't go through every team, but from what I can see the Bruins, Devils, Knights, Oilers, Leafs, Stars, Kraken, Sabres and Panthers had more 5v5 goals last season.

So last season Rangers finished w the 10th most 5v5 goals. They are sitting at 6th now.

2022-23 NHL Summary | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the Eastern, Western Conference and Playoff series Standings, Statistics, Leaders and more for the 2022-23 NHL season on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

You can also just...look up 5v5 goals directly? Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

They have 152.

 

[Machinehead]

Overall, I think the Rangers are a flawed team, but I also think the East is kinda bad and very winnable.

The only scary team in the East is Florida and the only truly good teams are Florida and Carolina, both of whom we've played well against.

We're a weird team. We're a "bad analytics team" and what have you, but there's elite analytics teams like Florida and Caorlina that we never play bad against for some reason.

Meanwhile, against dreck like Philly and Washington, we look like a high school team. But we also have a lot more talent than them.

With NJ falling out of the picture this year, I actually like our matchups against the big boys.

 

[kovazub94]

Negativity needs to come down here with this team. Enjoy the ride.

Got to say hats off to you as a mod to continue driving this point and manage the "environment" around here. IMO this is a big(ger) part of mod's responsibilities - one that largely is not acknowledged.

 

[Machinehead]

I'll tell you who scares the shit out of me - Dallas.

But if we make it to Dallas, I'm not gonna think about it too much.

 

[NYR Viper]

I'll tell you who scares the shit out of me - Dallas.

But if we make it to Dallas, I'm not gonna think about it too much.

Offensively they are scary but defensively? I'm not sure I love their group. And going through what will likely be a gauntlet of long, grueling series' out West will take it's toll.

I don't really see an 'easy' matchup this year. Just keep winning and playing well and let the chips fall where they may. They will have to beat good teams to move on every round. It's the nature of parity.

 

[bernmeister]

Wennberg has had a lot on his plate in three weeks, moving to a new city with a very pregnant wife can't be the easiest thing to do.

I think we'll see a better version of Wennberg moving forward, and even with how he has been, he's done solidly in his role.

The schedule will give him almost 4 full weeks around his family. A lot of the stresses from the beginning of a new child will start to pass.

fair 'nuf, hence the like
still, I think Wenn is slightly underrated def. and signif overrated off.
just imo