Roster Building thread - Part X - (TDL edition)

[The Crypto Guy]

I think one of them is making their NHL debut elsewhere. I think Sykora has a higher floor and Berard a higher ceiling.

I can agree with that.

 

[Daves a mess]

Not every prospect is untouchable. We would be jumping for joy if Sykora becomes a player like Vatrano in 3-4 years. The issue is we could use that much more now. Plus Berard is closer the the NHL. Too many wing prospects.

I could see the convo between Verbeek and Drury now .

We want Perreault! We'll give you Sykora
We want Cuylle! We'll give you Sykora.
We want Othmann! We'll give you Sykora.
We want a First! We fear the Sphere.
Berard? HF GMs say untouchable.

Then you only get Henrique! Fine. Then, you only get Jones.

 

[aufheben]

You are probably right. Thats the guys the Canucks would target, at least as a starter package. No NTC or not, Mika is too old to be a centerpiece in this kind of deal.

The fact that Lafreniere is not a center also hurts. Other teams could offer good, young centers. The Ducks could beat our offer. They also suck so they probably have the cap space. This is the best player Vancouver has drafted since Pavel Bure.

 

[Raspewtin]

I wouldn't mind Berard getting traded over Sykora. I think Skyora has a much better shot being a NHLer than him.

People are sleeping on Sykora. Going to be a fan favorite, Cally light player out there.

i think you're sleeping on Berard personally but that's no disrespect to Sykora

imo he's an NHLer now. absolutely baffled why he doesn't get the call ever.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

i think you're sleeping on Berard personally but that's no disrespect to Sykora

imo he's an NHLer now. absolutely baffled why he doesn't get the call ever.

Its obvious. Size. But he needs to be given a good look

 

[Raspewtin]

Its obvious. Size. But he needs to be given a good look

Berard is very strong on the walls with a low center of gravity. Any Pack watcher can attest to his size not being any kind of hinderance.

 

[n8]

The Wyshynski proposal isn't awful. The Rangers dump Goodrow on Anaheim. No buyouts on the books. Anaheim retains money. Vatrano is signed for next season.

It would be better if the Rangers could find a player(RW) with term remaining(more than one year) or someone who will be a group II and they could extend. Trade the 1st and 2nd round picks for that player. That 2nd round pick will be the late 50's/early 60's. There aren’t that many NHL players taken in that part of the draft. The Rangers fill that hole after wasting assets trying to fill that hole for three straight seasons.

Frank talked about Buchnevich getting a number starting with an 8 in his next contract. No.

I'm not sure what the exact numbers look like but I'd prefer a lesser prospect than Sykora OR a 2nd instead of a 1st with less retention. I'm sure we need some retention but not sure we need that much. -Chytil -Goodrow cap seems mostly ample? Someone's gonna correct me.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Berard is very strong on the walls with a low center of gravity. Any Pack watcher can attest to his size not being any kind of hinderance.

Not going to dispute that, at all.

He's a strong, determined kid who I'd love to see called up.

I'm just looking at who the Rangers have brought up and the two who are currently on the 4th line. The two of them equal 5 Berards in length and weight. They probably shouldve given Belzile a look over Pitlick as well. Maybe they want more muscle/fists in the lineup considering how important the stars are to this club. Whether its the right decision or not, thats the direction they are going in, right now.

 

[trueblue30nyr]

I think this week and next week we have like a total of 4 games combined or something. Really sparse.

They have a game next Monday and then not again until that following Saturday. This will be the third time this season that they get an almost one-week break between games (counting the All-Star break).

 

[mas0764]

The same model called Ryan Lindgren a #1 defenseman in April of last year.

Last year he was playing at or near that level.

Some of the consternation might be the labels as you pointed out. They are shorthand for achieving a certain level of GSVA. The numbers are more important.

Its stupid.
And Igor has been well below HIS average, with him having been miserable earlier on. Anyone who is trying to argue Igor isn't AT LEAST an above average NHL goalkeeper, if not elite, is just pushing a narrative.

I don't think it was saying he's not an above average goalkeeper. The check or no check indicates whether you are average, above average, below average in comparison to the standard by the average cup winners of the past, not the entire league.

Currently Shesterkin's season performance is below the average performance of other cup winner's netminders. Hopefully that has turned a corner.

 

[NYR Viper]

Let's look at Atkinson as compared to Vatrano when we acquired him:

Vatrano
49 gp
16 p (12 at 5v5)
8g (7 at 5v5)
12:12 TOI
UFA to be
-1.4 CF rel @ 5v5
I can't get Vatrano's p/60 as hockey-reference seems to have a glitch in their 21-22 dat in general in all of their tables

Atkinson
58 gp
28 p (20 at 5v5)
13 g (10 at 5v5)
16:59 TOI
1 more year on his deal
-2.2 CF rel @ 5v5
1.7 p/60 @ 5v5

They really aren't that dissimilar, if anything Atkinson has a bit more production with a bit more ice time. Again, it's all about that contract

 

[kovazub94]

The only player rumored to be available that I would be okay moving the 2024 1st for is Yanni Gourde, especially if he’s retained like 25%. Another year on his deal, 2 Cups, a leader, and a perfect fit.

No other name rumored is worth a 1st other than Hanifin who isn’t a fit here.

If you can condition the pick on a Conference Finals appearance, even better.

f*** conference final condition - SCF only!

 

[bernmeister]

If you can move out Trouba for a first, you have some ammo.

Your tradeable assets are then:

- Your own 2024 first
- The Trouba 2024 first (edit: 2025 first I guess?)
- Your own 2025 first
- Lindgren
- Mika Zibanejad

You need a young 1C and a young first pair D. You can add a depth prospect like a BMB, Sykora, Berard, and Jones or Robertson to this as well.

Kreider - young 1C - Perrault
Panarin - Trocheck - Lafreniere
Othmann - Chytil - Kakko
Cuylle - Brodzinksi - Vesey/Berard/Sykora/Rempe/Edstrom

Young 1D - Fox
Miller - Schneider
Gustafsson - Jones/Robertson

That's a good effing team right there.

Let's talk targets. 1C and 1D who can be obtained for that list of assets, or what those assets would bring back themselves. Go.

troub goes nowhere til nmc->ntc this summer

best we can do this yr:
BMB + Vesey for J. Perrault + Helleson
then flip J. Per to MON for Barron

play Drew Helleson, don't give a rat's ass about ugly growing pains DO IT NOW NOW NOW NOW
Barron we know what he is
I can see him better w/reps

Troub now = emergency RD and 4RW which = less skating responsibility

Kreid - Ed - Zib
bread - tro - KK
Cuyl - Brodz - KK
Good/Oth/Ber - Rempe - Trouba

If I was the GM, I'd have never given Troubs that contract to begin with.

But that 8 mil cap hit has to be gone, come FA this summer.

Kreider, they'll keep him. Too much history and identification.



Trouba's NMC changes on July 1st. We can't get a 2024 1st for him.

I was more upset with:
1. We should not have traded 1st + to Wini for him. He was pending ufa we empowered him by commitment of spending that 1st on him. Should have just waited, then he comes to us, and maybe we go 8, maybe he takes 7. But what happened was zero maybe and def vs us w/a weaker negot. position.

2. Biggest prob is we hand out nmcs
no nmcs ever
no effin exceptions
don't care if you are bobby orr
extensive ntcs as warranted, yes; but never nmcs

---------------
We will be able to unload roughly 6 out of 8m for 2nd-ish/+ value
Obv DET is possible, but if they are a no, then we have to see

An interesting thought is Parayko.
He is 30 now and 6.5m til '29-'30 compared to slightly more now but younger, less term, Trouba
but setting aside that is already complicated w/lot of variables,
my understanding is Para has had few concussions, but back issues.
Para in decline 2 prior seasons, some rebound this yr.

Prob now worth the gamble, but
if para 4.5 then
we do
Good reduced to 2.5
and Troub reduced to 5.5

some adds prob needed
but

StL gets structural cap relief moves out longer term $$$
NY gets short term relief
we are probably taking on a contract that needs buy out in 3-4 yrs
but back is an x factor of too much risk
so prob pass

I wonder if Lauzon would be insurance for a Lindgren trade in the off-season. Big guy who can skate, signed at a reasonable deal for a couple of seasons...

no
not that big, not that good

No you don’t. You just buy him out at the end of the season and keep your assets


If the Rangers can swing a trade for EP, they should have no untouchables in said trade

I'm not a fan of dealing youth.
This deal howev moves 2nd tier youth, except for the 1st
It retains on Vats -- prob keep but conceptually returns 1st next season
and
delivers ufa henrique
if Hen resigns for 1 yr no trade protection, even if a little high $$, we can retain and recover a 1st, even if we add.
So depending on exact parameters, this could be an exception for the reasons stated

All kidding aside putting Rempe on the line with Ace and Gary is more sane than one of Bern’s trade proposals.

All kidding aside...
like Frodo carrying the ring
there are somethings that only bern can do

They won’t.

Why tf does NYR have to give these guys NMCs? Especially with Zibanejad, do you really think he would have walked if they didn’t give it to him?

It’s more than enough.

If we adopted my policy some yrs ago, it would be a team policy. He might have still walked, but it would have made negot. more in our favor.

Again, overpay Zib to 10.5 1st 2 yrs, then down to 8 or so, but ZERO nmc/ntc length of deal.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

 

[kovazub94]

I'd rather get a rental, or someone with one year left, than someone signed long term that will affect the cap situation when they need to re-sign Kakko, Lafreniere, Cuylle, Schneider, and Miller.

I wouldn’t make it an obstacle they can’t address. The Rangers will have a chance to subtract some of the contracts from the current roster and the players you mentioned should be signed for either cheap or medium cost contracts.

 

[aufheben]

Still think we are outside looking in, in comparison to Florida and Toronto. We will see.

Your interpretation of this is incorrect, but it's because Shayna presented this terribly. Just change the roles around based on the actual ice time and it paints a completely different story. Trocheck plays more than Zibanejad, so he's in reality the 1C this year. Swap the two of them and you have checks for elite C and top-line C. Trouba as the number 1 D instead of Miller despite them basically having identical usage outside of Trouba's sporadic PP2 minutes is silly. There's another check there. Completely different narrative if the writing wasn't lazy.

Igor's numbers are also tanked by one abysmal month. If he maintains his trend and plays even somewhat close to his previous levels, there's another check there. The team is good. The roster will be fine with some upgrades around the margins, and yes, I agree the Chytil injury sucks ass. Drury doesn't need to blow his load this deadline and get caught up in the top names. Most of them are pretty bad anyways

I don’t think flipping our players changes anything, but I am curious how they assigned roles. I’ll ask Shayna. I completely agree with the roles they did assign however. Mika is supposed to be this team’s elite center.

Edit: Shayna says it’s a combo of “TOI + role”; I’m assuming that means matchups or zone deployment.

 

[McRanger92]

Last year he was playing at or near that level.

Some of the consternation might be the labels as you pointed out. They are shorthand for achieving a certain level of GSVA. The numbers are more important.



I don't think it was saying he's not an above average goalkeeper. The check or no check indicates whether you are average, above average, below average in comparison to the standard by the average cup winners of the past, not the entire league.

Currently Shesterkin's season performance is below the average performance of other cup winner's netminders. Hopefully that has turned a corner.

The numbers are fugazi if they are calling any version of Lindgren a top guy, based on style of play and size alone

 

[Machinehead]

The numbers are fugazi if they are calling any version of Lindgren a top guy, based on style of play and size alone

The analytics always attempt to iso away from teammates but it's never perfect. Anything with Lindgren, you have to remember that he has the best partner in the world.

That the pair straight up isn't good this year is even more alarming for that reason.

 

[aufheben]

The numbers are fugazi if they are calling any version of Lindgren a top guy, based on style of play and size alone

I think you’re focusing too much on the labels rather than the numbers. Their criteria for “Top Pair Defenseman” isn’t that high.

 

[bleedblue94]

We’d still have Othmann, Berard, Sykora plus Cuylle is already here as far as young wingers go. Goodrow traded or bought out, who knows about Chytil he might be on LTIR and if he’s not he could move to the wing or be part of the trade as well. I’m not too concerned about the money part of it, there are ways to make it work.

so you are the leafs 2.0

Berard and sykora in all likelihood are 3rd liners that you hope can play 2nd line in a pinch.

Youre top heavy roster that will be capped out completely

 

[bleedblue94]

Why? Because their games are somewhat similar?

Fox wouldn't be already 29, on a lottery team, and following Mark Messier.

Their games are in no way similar other than they both get points. It's like saying broduer's game was similar to hasek bc they both got shutouts.

You're right, he would be younger, he would be on a team with Stanley cup aspirations as opposed to a lottery team. There's absolutely nothing demonstrated by Fox for captain material other than he's a good player. I mean this with all respect, but captains of teams are not the cuddle guys, they are the ones that hold teammates accountable and represent the identity of a group. Fox is about as vanilla as Ryan Strome was when he tried to be the vocal leader of the team to the press and in the press against the coaching staff.

You want fox to be the captain but being a captain and a leader doesn't happen bc people want you to be, it happens bc you just are the one that other gravitate to and you lead them. Fox is a hell of a player and super smart, but he isn't the leader of this team.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Their games are in no way similar other than they both get points. It's like saying broduer's game was similar to hasek bc they both got shutouts.

You're right, he would be younger, he would be on a team with Stanley cup aspirations as opposed to a lottery team. There's absolutely nothing demonstrated by Fox for captain material other than he's a good player. I mean this with all respect, but captains of teams are not the cuddle guys, they are the ones that hold teammates accountable and represent the identity of a group. Fox is about as vanilla as Ryan Strome was when he tried to be the vocal leader of the team to the press and in the press against the coaching staff.

You want fox to be the captain but being a captain and a leader doesn't happen bc people want you to be, it happens bc you just are the one that other gravitate to and you lead them. Fox is a hell of a player and super smart, but he isn't the leader of this team.

Mackinnon as the avs coach is a great example.

 

[McRanger92]

I think you’re focusing too much on the labels rather than the numbers. Their criteria for “Top Pair Defenseman” isn’t that high.

The labels are part of the model. It’s not my fault they don’t make sense

 

[Machinehead]

Their games are in no way similar other than they both get points. It's like saying broduer's game was similar to hasek bc they both got shutouts.

You're right, he would be younger, he would be on a team with Stanley cup aspirations as opposed to a lottery team. There's absolutely nothing demonstrated by Fox for captain material other than he's a good player. I mean this with all respect, but captains of teams are not the cuddle guys, they are the ones that hold teammates accountable and represent the identity of a group. Fox is about as vanilla as Ryan Strome was when he tried to be the vocal leader of the team to the press and in the press against the coaching staff.

You want fox to be the captain but being a captain and a leader doesn't happen bc people want you to be, it happens bc you just are the one that other gravitate to and you lead them. Fox is a hell of a player and super smart, but he isn't the leader of this team.

Who's not vanilla? Out of the captains who have recently won Cups, who came off as fiery and is giving great responses to the media?

Stamkos? Pietrangelo? Landeskog? Even Sidney Crosby, who is regarded as a great leader, has the personality of a sofa.

Hold people accountable? Jonathan Toews refused to hold a predator accountable. He has three Cups.

I think Fox should be captain because he always plays the right way, sets an example, and put his career on the line to be a Ranger. You really don't need more than that.

You're expecting Mark Messier. If you're expecting Messier, we'll never have a good captain again.

 

[McRanger92]

I think Fox would be a fine captain. He is not reserved like Kreider, he has a podcast lol. He also understands the role as someone who grew up with the Rangers.

I also think for better or worse his preference for Lindgren speaks volumes for his standing in the organization.