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Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part X — Active Roster in OP (09/28)

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Tawnos said:
No I’m with you on that last part. I just think that in a rebuild, that’s what you’re banking on anyway. Having Hayes around isn’t going to change any of that.

It’s admittedly a contradiction. You plan based on worst-case scenarios with your vets. You plan based on best-case scenarios with your prospects. With some hedges of course.
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Doesn’t this line of thinking just leave you at risk for miring in mediocrity? I feel like these types of decisions can cause a GM to perpetuate mistakes just for the sake of rebuilding.

I’m fine with the rebuild, and I’m sure you’ve seen my previous posts where I’ve laid out my thoughts on this rebuild starting with the Brassard trade. I view this team as turning it around in 20-21, so I don’t see the need for them to perpetuate a rebuild. They’ve already stockpiled picks and prospects, and that will reach its peak this season. After that, I think they’ll be in a prime position to compete and start feeding in their younger talents.
 
Mac n Gs said:
Doesn’t this line of thinking just leave you at risk for miring in mediocrity? I feel like these types of decisions can cause a GM to perpetuate mistakes just for the sake of rebuilding.

I’m fine with the rebuild, and I’m sure you’ve seen my previous posts where I’ve laid out my thoughts on this rebuild starting with the Brassard trade. I view this team as turning it around in 20-21, so I don’t see the need for them to perpetuate a rebuild. They’ve already stockpiled picks and prospects, and that will reach its peak this season. After that, I think they’ll be in a prime position to compete and start feeding in their younger talents.
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Well it’s all about timing, unless you’re talking about elite level players like Panarin. Even the best teams needed players they acquired from the outside, whether it’s Sharp and Hossa in Chicago or Richards and Carter in LA. But for all our stockpiling, it’s not clear we have a 1C in the organization and it is way less clear if we have a 1D in the organization. The stockpiling shouldn’t be over yet.
 
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offdacrossbar said:
i understand pionk may have the better 2 way game and shot and that ADA gambles too much, and so ADA sitting isnt really that big of a deal, but marc staal is a dumpster fire.

plain and simple, hes a traffic cone which is bolted to the ice. his stick skills are .....well, he has no stick skills. he cant skate that great anymore and he cannot receive a pass or shoot.

staal - mcquaid scares me.
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If Staal can't improve his overall game I'm thinking he's bought out next summer. Just saying--there is no good reason for the Rangers to continue to pay the kind of money they are to him. And the truth is I wanted to buy him out last year. He is a bit of a physical wreck--he does have some stick skills though. He has a long reach and does break up a lot of plays. Offensively though he's not good carrying the puck--not a good passer other than simple stuff and he's an absolute train wreck when he's in the offensive zone.

McQuaid doesn't scare me. He's going to play a simple game but it's a very hard nosed simple game. He's a throwback kind of defenseman but I like the take no prisoner's thing. I like the idea that if someone rams into Henrik there's a decent chance they're going to get knocked into next week and if Staal played like that he would be a hell of a lot more useful than he is now.

By the way I do like Marc--it's just those two injuries turned him into a shell of what he was. It's too bad but the game has passed him by IMO.
 
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eco's bones said:
If Staal can't improve his overall game I'm thinking he's bought out next summer. Just saying--there is no good reason for the Rangers to continue to pay the kind of money they are to him. And the truth is I wanted to buy him out last year. He is a bit of a physical wreck--he does have some stick skills though. He has a long reach and does break up a lot of plays. Offensively though he's not good carrying the puck--not a good passer other than simple stuff and he's an absolute train wreck when he's in the offensive zone.

McQuaid doesn't scare me. He's going to play a simple game but it's a very hard nosed simple game. He's a throwback kind of defenseman but I like the take no prisoner's thing. I like the idea that if someone rams into Henrik there's a decent chance they're going to get knocked into next week and if Staal played like that he would be a hell of a lot more useful than he is now.

By the way I do like Marc--it's just those two injuries turned him into a shell of what he was. It's too bad but the game has passed him by IMO.
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NYR management

2014 offseason: We had to buy Dan out. He's been a great Ranger and we wish him and his family nothing but the best but his body was physically deteriorating

2018 opening night: plays Marc Staal 16 minutes at EV PK

I think Gorton was clear during the fan fest deal that the cupboards are not anywhere near full enough to start adding pieces to compete. The timing isn't here yet and won't be until the next crop of draft picks develop for a year. They'll ride it out with Marc.
 
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Tob said:
NYR management

2014 offseason: We had to buy Dan out. He's been a great Ranger and we wish him and his family nothing but the best but his body was physically deteriorating

2018 opening night: plays Marc Staal 16 minutes at EV PK

I think Gorton was clear during the fan fest deal that the cupboards are not anywhere near full enough to start adding pieces to compete. The timing isn't here yet and won't be until the next crop of draft picks develop for a year. They'll ride it out with Marc.
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2014?
 
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Tob said:
NYR management

2014 offseason: We had to buy Dan out. He's been a great Ranger and we wish him and his family nothing but the best but his body was physically deteriorating

2018 opening night: plays Marc Staal 16 minutes at EV PK

I think Gorton was clear during the fan fest deal that the cupboards are not anywhere near full enough to start adding pieces to compete. The timing isn't here yet and won't be until the next crop of draft picks develop for a year. They'll ride it out with Marc.
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At this point it's pretty much too late to dump Marc this year. I would expect Hajek just for one is going to be ready to replace him by next year. The Rangers may feel that Libor needs a half year/full year in Hartford--at least I can understand that logic but IMO Marc's days are numbered. The other thing is he's going to be almost impossible to trade without sending along good picks and/or prospects. His contract is pretty much toxic enough that you have to give up something good to get rid of it--so to me buying him out is the way to go because I don't want to give up those prospects and picks.

On the subject of Girardi's buyout--I didn't have a problem with it but I also thought Dan if used correctly could still play and do okay. Last year with the Lightning that seemed to happen. Those head injuries that Staal has taken over the years (and he was concussed again last year) have really taken a toll.
 
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There will come a point when Staal’s roster space is needed. Once that happens, he’ll be leaving. The way things are going right now, they will need the roster space before they need the money.

The upcoming expansion draft will play a role in how these things play out. It may mean there are some eventual buyouts if accommodations can’t be reached. That’s one of the reasons Girardi was bought out last summer and could be the fate Staal ultimately faces. Hank too. The Rangers are not going to lose any assets from the rebuild In a show of loyalty.
 
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bobbop said:
There will come a point when Staal’s roster space is needed. Once that happens, he’ll be leaving. The way things are going right now, they will need the roster space before they need the money.

The upcoming expansion draft will play a role in how these things play out. It may mean there are some eventual buyouts if accommodations can’t be reached. That’s one of the reasons Girardi was bought out last summer and could be the fate Staal ultimately faces. Hank too. The Rangers are not going to lose any assets from the rebuild In a show of loyalty.
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Well, that depends when the expansion draft is. Bettman said they are aiming for 2020, but there is still a possibility it will be 2021. If it's 2021, Staal is UFA. If it's 2020, his buy out will be quite low.

upload_2018-10-3_10-49-4.png


Girardi's buy out penalty for 2020 until 2023 is 1.1m
 
Tawnos said:
Well it’s all about timing, unless you’re talking about elite level players like Panarin. Even the best teams needed players they acquired from the outside, whether it’s Sharp and Hossa in Chicago or Richards and Carter in LA. But for all our stockpiling, it’s not clear we have a 1C in the organization and it is way less clear if we have a 1D in the organization. The stockpiling shouldn’t be over yet.
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Getting the true leaders will be the hardest part like you say, those must be homegrown.

The trade market right now is worthless for non-rentals. Looking at what McD/Miller fetched, Karlsson, Skinner and so forth. I thought MaxPac returned a lot but he is an exception. If you have a ton of young assets and cap space it seems like it will be possible to bring good help.

But to go all the way teams have often needed a true homegrown core, Kopitar/Doughty, Kane/Toews, Bergeron and co., Malk and Sid.
 
I agree with both points on Hayes, I don't necessarily think turning him into rental value was the right asset move, but I don't think the stockpiling should even be considered to be over even after this deadline.

I'd be more for them stockpiling in draft picks than see them going after already drafted prospects, I'm much more leery the best ones will be available ever. Even last year they received back Howden and they seem to be shoehorning him into the 4th line already, or at least not caring that he is playing in the bottom 6. Hajek showed some promise but I am not sure what they are going to do there, they have Skjei now locked up long term, Staal and Smith are still here and really I'm not sure if any of them are going to solve the top pair LD role the team is going to need.

From what I have seen of the center prospects, it kind of looks like if they keep Chytil at center he has some possible top line potential yet I think they are sort of destined to develop him into a wing, how long can he play with Fast or whoever and still be on the top line center trajectory? If his does not cut it defensively at center in the NHL, and they send him down does he or Lias center the top AHL line? Or are they just going to convert him to wing at the NHL level?

Lias looks okay, but seems more like a maybe middle 6 center to me. Howden too looks okay but again if they are not worried about him getting minimal ice time in a 4th line role, I'm not sure where that leaves him.

It kind of looks like they still need a projected top line center, they still need potential top pair defenders, so I can understand them trying to get them by stockpiling picks, but on the other hand I tend to agree that using Hayes to get them may end up with them needing to replace Hayes in some capacity, and I'd rather them have Hayes than have to go get a Bozak or whatever because that likely turns into them going out and getting whoever at that time is the equivalent to Backes when Boston signed him.
 
Chytil just turned 19 though. I’m fairly comfortable knowing he can learn to defend at the NHL level. Can we give him a minute?
 
Tawnos said:
I think it hurts your point a little though when you realize the Girardi buyout was only 2 years ago, meaning the end of the cap pain from it is still a while away.
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The worst of it, the $3M+, ends after next season, and then the rest is ~$1.1M for 2-3 more years.

Buying out Staal next summer is surprisingly painless.
 
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buyouts hurt. paying money for a player to not play for you is the ultimate in cap management failure.

weve done a fairly poor job recently with guys like girardi and now staal. kevin klein did us a favor when he retired. brendan smith got a big 4 yr deal then was sent to hartford.

moving mcd27 was a solid move to avoid that next big contract for a player trending down. no problem there other than perhaps the return.

hayes is another mismanaged deal. been a mess from the start.

weve relied on bridge deals too much and generally been so-so at best with our money management. jt miller comes to mind...

theres an art to managing a club. productive vets on reasonable long term deals that have few unproductive years at the end. high draft rookies who can produce and start on their ELC's and 2nd contract guys "core guys" who are paid fairly with a competitive AAV.

drafting better helps too. but thats another story...... right gordie ??
 
Mac n Gs said:
The worst of it, the $3M+, ends after next season, and then the rest is ~$1.1M for 2-3 more years.

Buying out Staal next summer is surprisingly painless.
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Yeah, I know... but any dead cap is bad... maybe not worse than having the player stick around, but it's just not ideal.
 
Oh its far from ideal, they shouldn't have extended him to begin with.

If they don't need the space next year, I'd be all for keeping him as long as its in the capacity of an extra D and then buying him out after the season is over.
 
Mac n Gs said:
The worst of it, the $3M+, ends after next season, and then the rest is ~$1.1M for 2-3 more years.

Buying out Staal next summer is surprisingly painless.
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Exactly right. As I said earlier, keeping Staal around potentially blocks a younger player which sucks. But, beyond that, he's not causing us cap problems or preventing us from competing (because we're not trying to compete, really). So he can be kept for another year. If we decide we want to try to sign or acquire some legit guys next year and need the space (and the spot for a kid at the same time), we can cut him loose and it's less painful than if we did it now.

Staal is an inconvenience to the rebuild but his presence isn't crippling. And who knows, maybe he magically looks like a legit #5 and we can trade him (with his consent, obviously) in a salary retention deal. I mean it's unlikely but you never know.
 
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If they buyout Staal they'll probably trade for Oleksiak and play him in front of Hajek anyway.
 
nyr2k2 said:
Exactly right. As I said earlier, keeping Staal around potentially blocks a younger player which sucks. But, beyond that, he's not causing us cap problems or preventing us from competing (because we're not trying to compete, really). So he can be kept for another year. If we decide we want to try to sign or acquire some legit guys next year and need the space (and the spot for a kid at the same time), we can cut him loose and it's less painful than if we did it now.

Staal is an inconvenience to the rebuild but his presence isn't crippling. And who knows, maybe he magically looks like a legit #5 and we can trade him (with his consent, obviously) in a salary retention deal. I mean it's unlikely but you never know.
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I think the amount to which vets block young players is overstated. Think about what happened with Roszival in 2011... and that wasn't even a rebuilding team.
 
We can afford to keep staal on the roster one more season after this one but he’s going to have to shift to a 7th dman and the organization is going to have to not screw it up. Hajek is going to be a top 6 dman next year the latest. He’s not DeAngelo. There’s no question marks there. Kid is the real deal.

After next year girardis cap hit goes down considerably and buying staal’s last season out or maybe trading him at 50% retained is more doable.
 
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Say they do buyout Staal, and Hajek is on the team going into next season, that does not help them with finding someone who is going to fulfill the role of stepping in to settle things down, someone to make everyone feel more comfortable. So does McQuaid get extended and play with Skjei again or does he play with Hajek or Smith next year?
 
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