Roster Building Thread - Part VIII (2023-24 season)

[Machinehead]

Devils- not one bust in top 10. Holtz is closest but still has time and i think has looked ok this preseason. Smith was 17th and bovist was second round.

Colorado - rantaanan was picked 2 years afte mack. And mack wasnt even a superstar. They didnt do a second rebuild. They were still in their first. They had a fluke playoff year in the middle. Kaut was 16, jost was 10, bleackly was 23, hishon was 17. Their top 10 picks all hit except jost. Mack, makar, duchene, landeskog, byram, rantaanan.

Tampa - had three top 10 misses but luckily turned one into Segachev. They also had luck with Kucherov, point etc to offset. But they nailed hedman and stamkos.

So again these teams didnt really miss high draft picks with the exception of tampa who made shrewd trades and hit home runs llater in draft.

We missed on every top 10 pick. And yes even though kakko and laf were consensus, it still looks like misses as of now. And i would have drafted them too. If laf and kakko played pike mack and rantaanan we win the cup.

It really is that easy.

And more rebuild fail then succeed. Even with all the patience in the world. That is a fact.

We had an unique opportunity to nav two stars in panarin and trouba for peanuts. That was to go along with our uoung star in zib. And our shiny #2 cant miss kakko.

Its not like we went out to get over the hill vets.

We just had unfortunate luck, and yes some unfortunate luck with high picks.

Why do we keep drawing this arbitrary line on a top 10 pick? Do you think 11-20 are that much less likely to have an impact than 6-10?

Yeah, if Laf and Kakko were MacKinnon and Rantanen, we win the Cup. MacKinnon was drafted in 2013 and Rantanen was drafted in 2015. They won the Cup in 2022.

Similarly, I don't see this particular team winning the Cup. Maybe they win it in their next window like Colorado did. I'd like to give them a shot at it by not tying a massive contract for Shesterkin around their necks.

 

[CLW]

And not knocking on mental health, but really unfortunate in landing players with issues. Laf has compete issues. Kakko can't seem to jibe with NHL coaches. Kravtsov was a spoiled brat. Andersson was a total shock. And this after the letter proclaiming to get players with character. They're characters, alright.

Hm? Kakko has had an NHL coach for like one minute and not even played one NHL game under him yet. He'll be fine. Especially fine if Zib isn't in his usual coma until X-mas.

 

[duhmetreE]

GET CISED.

Kakko puts the the 24 into 2024 Geometry

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I'm referring to Laffy working hard

Yes...thats what im refering to as well

 

[Machinehead]

After Igor's contract runs out, Panarin will be 33 with 1 year left. Kreider will be 34 with 2 years left. Trouba will be 31 with 1 year left. Miller needs an extension. Kakko needs an extension and we only hope that becomes a problem. You have to think Cuylle and Othmann are in the fold, and we hope Perreault.

Even if you believe highly in this team over the next couple of years, it's easy to see that we're moving in a different direction as an organization when Igor's current deal expires. Depending on a number of factors, we may very well end up taking a step back for a couple of years. If the team desperately needs elite goaltending to stay in, then by all means, take a step back for a couple of years. I can't see us needing Igor in 2026 or 2027.

By the time 2028 rolls around, I won't want Igor. This is the team they have. It's not changing much until that '25 offseason. I'm thinking about the window after '25. We already hot glued ourselves to Zibanejad until the sun burns out. We don't need another contract for a guy going well into his 30's in the late 2020's

 

[Ruggs225]

Why do we keep drawing this arbitrary line on a top 10 pick? Do you think 11-20 are that much less likely to have an impact than 6-10?

Yeah, if Laf and Kakko were MacKinnon and Rantanen, we win the Cup. MacKinnon was drafted in 2013 and Rantanen was drafted in 2015. They won the Cup in 2022.

Similarly, I don't see this particular team winning the Cup. Maybe they win it in their next window like Colorado did. I'd like to give them a shot at it by not tying a massive contract for Shesterkin around their necks.

Yes. Top 10 are and should be statistically better than 11-20. Is this a serious question? The higher u pick the better chance of a better player u get. Its also teams sometimes make trades that are top 10 protected. Its bc those picks are most baluable.

U are better and smarter than this ridiculous statement u made.

And u are completely twisting my words with mack and raantanan. I never said timeline. Colorado did their rebuild their own way and so are we. We had a much stronger starting point.

Also the teams didnt miss on a #1 overall pick or #2. Colorado nailed all their top picks. They just started with much less than us both player wise and pick wise.

And regarding shesty. If garand looks to be a #1 then inwould be ok moving on. However, TB doesnt win a cup without vasi let alone 2. Neither does LA, or boston. So there is something to be said about goalies. If he comes in under 8m i sign him with zero hesitation.

 

[will1066]

Hm? Kakko has had an NHL coach for like one minute and not even played one NHL game under him yet. He'll be fine. Especially fine if Zib isn't in his usual coma until X-mas.

I see what you did there

GET CISED.

Kakko puts the the 24 into 2024 Geometry

You got me excited and it's nothing but flubbed passes, passing it around and recovery plays.

 

[LOFIN]

And not knocking on mental health, but really unfortunate in landing players with issues. Laf has compete issues. Kakko can't seem to jibe with NHL coaches. Kravtsov was a spoiled brat. Andersson was a total shock. And this after the letter proclaiming to get players with character. They're characters, alright.

As in the head coach of the team scratching him without an explanation before elimination playoff game?

 

[Machinehead]

Yes. Top 10 are and should be statistically better than 11-20. Is this a serious question? The higher u pick the better chance of a better player u get. Its also teams sometimes make trades that are top 10 protected. Its bc those picks are most baluable.

U are better and smarter than this ridiculous statement u made.

And u are completely twisting my words with mack and raantanan. I never said timeline. Colorado did their rebuild their own way and so are we. We had a much stronger starting point.

Also the teams didnt miss on a #1 overall pick or #2. Colorado nailed all their top picks. They just started with much less than us both player wise and pick wise.

And regarding shesty. If garand looks to be a #1 then inwould be ok moving on. However, TB doesnt win a cup without vasi let alone 2. Neither does LA, or boston. So there is something to be said about goalies. If he comes in under 8m i sign him with zero hesitation.

Picks 6-15 are only marginally better than the rest of the first round. Top 5 is where the cutoff is (I would argue buoyed by top 2, maybe 3) and we took who we had to with our top 2 picks.

You assuming that we should hit on a pick because it was 7th or 9th is the same thing the Rangers did.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Are you okay with trading Shesty and going with a completely unproven 22 year old goalie?

Garand played well at the end of the year and in the playoffs, but his overall numbers were subpar. He's not ready for the NHL yet and he's going to spend the entire year in the AHL. Do you just want to cross your fingers and hope that he can handle the job? What if he can't?

I don't know what Shesty will get on his next deal, or for how long. I know that Hellebuyck just got 8.5 x 7. I know Sorokin got 8.25 x 8. I know Vasilevskiy got 9.5 x 8 a few years ago, but he has won cups.

I'm comfortable paying Shesty market value. I'm also comfortable with the idea that even if we sign him for 7 or 8 years, that doesn't mean we have to keep him for 7 or 8 years, as long as we don't screw up the movement clauses. And I'm also comfortable with the idea that he can play out that contract with the Rangers, because I expect he'll still be at the top of his game for the life of the deal.

We can have a goalie making 9.5 mil and still win a cup. That just means we have to save money in other places. Maybe guys like Othmann, Perreault and whomever else we draft can actually contribute on their ELCs.

As i said before if Garand is a capable 1, you let Shesterkin go knowing we have the best goalie coach in the world. Shesterkins contract in 2025 is likely 11 or so, and will no doubt given our track record have no move clause in it. If Garand doesn't look like a 1 then i guess we have to sign Shesterkin but it will hamper this team for the duration of his deal. 1/8 of the salary cap can't go to the goalie, Fox, Zib, etc are all signed to high dollar long term deals, not to mention Miller, Kakko, Chytil extensions. There will just be no cap space left. Montreal just went througu this very thing with Price.

 

[Machinehead]

As i said before if Garand is a capable 1, you let Shesterkin go knowing we have the best goalie coach in the world. Shesterkins contract in 2025 is likely 11 or so, and will no doubt given our track record have no move clause in it. If Garand doesn't look like a 1 then i guess we have to sign Shesterkin but it will hamper this team for the duration of his deal. 1/8 of the salary cap can't go to the goalie, Fox, Zib, etc are all signed to high dollar long term deals, not to mention Miller, Kakko, Chytil extensions. There will just be no cap space left. Montreal just went througu this very thing with Price.

You can easily find a decent goalie for a couple of years until a long-term option is ready, if you really feel that the team can win those years. There's 32 teams and probably 40 goalies who are starting caliber. It's not as hard to find as we're making it out to be.

 

[duhmetreE]

Yes...thats what im refering to as well

 

[will1066]

As in the head coach of the team scratching him without an explanation before elimination playoff game?

Is that normal?

 

[Fitzy]

Complicating this discussion is the fact that because he came over so late, we still are a good full season away from knowing what kind of goaltender Shesterkin is.

Is he a .930 show stealing goalie coming off an up and down year?

Is he an erratic goalie who bounces back and forth between above average and exceptional seasons?

Or is he an above average goaltender who had one season where he went gangbusters?

My money is on the middle. We will know more in May.

 

[haohmaru]

You said that last year. I, and others, told you exactly how the Devils series would play out and that's how it played out. This team is not good enough to get out of their division. They weren't last year and nothing changed.

Huge credit to sticking to your guns tho. Honestly.

Oh f***ing bullshit. You were doubting yourself to the Nth degree after the first two games thinking you called that all wrong.

I mean, it's one thing to the think the Devils were the better team and likely to win with speed and puck pressure, etc... but NOBODY thought the Rangers would impale themselves on their swords after those first two games and Gallant saying "derrrr derrr" instead of at least trying to change SOMETHING.

That being said, I'm completely on the fence about Shesterkin (after this year, they need to take their shot this year).

I mean, is this guy a generational goalie? Probably. Do you send Brodeur or Roy or Hasek packing because you don't want to pay him a fair deal? IDK. Depends on the return.

It's a really, really tough call.

 

[Machinehead]

I think Quick is scaring people. They think about losing Igor and think that might be the future.

Quick has had terrible analytics since the Obama administration and keeps getting jobs because he was on Cup teams. Same reason Matt Murray's garbage ass is still in the NHL somehow.

There are a million quality goalies out there which is part of the reason I'm frustrated that we're entertaining Quick.

 

[CLW]

Look at how long Buffalo sucked too. Whiffed on countless top picks and the best one from their first round of rebuild was disgruntled and was traded. They are now only after 15 years back in the playoff picture with what will be a scary team in two or three years if Levi turns out to be the real deal.

Buffalo got back because they took a look at what they'd been doing wrong. They got a new FO and began to draft and develop well.

 

[McRanger92]

I like the lines Laviolette has ready to go. Dont mind Vesey being a healthy scratch to start the season, he'll get in and we have some actual depth.

Im excited for the battle lines to be drawn over whether Panarin or Lafreniere is to blame for dragging Chytil down.

 

[Machinehead]

Oh f***ing bullshit. You were doubting yourself to the Nth degree after the first two games thinking you called that all wrong.

I mean, it's one thing to the think the Devils were the better team and likely to win with speed and puck pressure, etc... but NOBODY thought the Rangers would impale themselves on their swords after those first two games and Gallant saying "derrrr derrr" instead of at least trying to change SOMETHING.

That being said, I'm completely on the fence about Shesterkin (after this year, they need to take their shot this year).

I mean, is this guy a generational goalie? Probably. Do you send Brodeur or Roy or Hasek packing because you don't want to pay him a fair deal? IDK. Depends on the return.

It's a really, really tough call.

It's not bullshit. Yeah, the first two games surprised everyone. It doesn't change the outcome of the series which many people predicted.

 

[Machinehead]

I like the lines Laviolette has ready to go. Dont mind Vesey being a healthy scratch to start the season, he'll get in and we have some actual depth.

Im excited for the battle lines to be drawn over whether Panarin or Lafreniere is to blame for dragging Chytil down.

The correct answer is both.

As far as Vesey goes, it's not the worst thing. It's just that Goodrow is far and away the 13th best forward in that tweet and he'll be the guy to never come out.

 

[haohmaru]

It's not bullshit. Yeah, the first two games surprised everyone. It doesn't change the outcome of the series which many people predicted.

The outcome wasn't the outcome that people predicted. Nobody predicted the Rangers would lose because a lack of a will to win. Their whole schtick the entire season was they were really going to put the pedal to the metal once the playoffs started and empty the tank. That's not what we saw games 3-7.

 

[Fitzy]

The outcome wasn't the outcome that people predicted. Nobody predicted the Rangers would lose because a lack of a will to win. Their whole schtick the entire season was they were really going to put the pedal to the metal once the playoffs started and empty the tank. That's not what we saw games 3-7.

I didn't see the series as a difference in effort. I saw the Devils make an adjustment that fit all the worst aspects of the NYR roster (In particular, the transition game) and NYR weren't able to do anything to handle it.

Until NYR get a better scheme to move the puck out of the defensive zone, or make major personnel changes to that effect, we won't be able to deal with a roster playing forecheck hockey with short shifts at forward.

NJD weren't even forechecking to get turnovers. They were doing so to leave us no other option than to hit our own blue line with zero momentum, making it impossible to gain entry to the Devils zone with any kind of speed. At least under AV we would have used Kreider to stretch the ice surface.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

It's not bullshit. Yeah, the first two games surprised everyone. It doesn't change the outcome of the series which many people predicted.

The Devils were definitely the better team and were a bad matchup for the Rangers, even still, that series went to Game 7 and was still winnable despite the dogshit performance the Rangers laid out there. The Rangers stole 2 quick ones then sucked ass for 3 straight and then managed to win one even after it looking like it was over - that's not nothing. To me, I think with a little more structure and more of a plan (i.e effectively break the puck out of your own zone, play the matchup game, have puck support through the NZ and into the OZ) the Rangers very easily could've won that series, even with the Devils being a bad matchup and especially after going up 2-0. That's why Gallant was fired.

Just a little bit of pushback on the pervasive mindset on here that the Devils are basically an unbeatable juggernaut. They're good, still a bad matchup and we may lose to them again, but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. The better team on paper doesn't always win. There's always slumps, injuries, unexpected things happen. Carolina was a better team than us in 2022 and we won that series. During the Lundqvist years the Rangers beat countless superior opponents in the playoffs. Obviously you don't want to be worse than your opponent but I see a lot of talk about how the Canes and Devils are better than us so what's the point and with this being hockey I just can't go along with that.

 

[LOFIN]

Is that normal?

It shouldn't be

 

[McRanger92]

Last thing I'll say about the Shesterkin's future, aside from others being correct pointing out that we're getting way to far ahead of ourselves talking about his contract being up in the summer of 2025. Winnipeg just had Hellebuyck unsigned and on the trade block all summer. We didnt hear of a single nibble in trade talks aside from analysts wishcasting him to Buffalo or Jersey. We will never get equal value for what Shesterkin gives to the Rangers. People should take that into account when thinking about the precious future cap space.