Roster Building Thread - Part VIII (2023-24 season)

[Machinehead]

Now do the winners with elite forward talent.

All of the above.

Except for St. Louis being kind of meh. That whole thing was annoying. Some boring ass team with no gamebreaking talent wins one Cup and it gives rise to a whole new wave of "toffnuss" discourse and false hope.

 

[mas0764]

The issue with elite goaltending is that it can become a crutch. players take it for granted that they have a safety back there that will bail them out. elite goaltending also affects team and player stats and helps some guys make more money than they otherwise should. i wish we had mediocre goaltending in the season and then could flip a switch for the elite in the playoffs ha.

Also, because in a cap world it is a zero-sum game, the more you spend on your goalie the less you have to spend on things that actually matter to winning.

Dealing away your franchise goalie doesn't immediately make you better, it makes you worse, so the "how does this make us better," question is misleading. We all admit it doesn't make you better.

But to get better you need to first free up the space to get good forwards.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

"I was working out hard during the summer," Kakko said. "It's time to go."

We need to hear that from someone else.

You already did...was said a few times, Larry Brooks reported it as well

 

[mas0764]

All of the above.

Except for St. Louis being kind of meh. That whole thing was annoying. Some boring ass team with no gamebreaking talent wins one Cup and it gives rise to a whole new wave of "toffnuss" discourse and false hope.

As I've said many times - it's like one out of 15.

That's the odds that people on this board want us to chase. Yeah, maybe we will get lucky and have a Blues-like run.

But suggest we suck for a couple years to get some top-5 talent - you know, the kind of talent all the winning teams have - and it's "You want us to perpetually rebuild!" As if no one who picks in the top 5 ever finds their way out.

Also, literally nobody said trade Shesterkin.

People are saying don't give Shesterkin $12m going into 2026.

But if you aren't paying him, then trade him and get back a haul.

You can't do it on the cusp of the season, I guess, but if (when) we don't win the Cup this year, he should be shopped.

You would find some sucker to give you a big package of assets.

To get elite talent at forward, you either need to buy it which Shesterkin's contract would prevent or draft it which his performance would likely prevent.

The best path forward for this team is rebuilding and actually sticking to it this time.

preach it

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I'm pretty excited for this team, my wants the last two years have been finally filled decently, a left dman, Gustafson and a rw Wheeler. My only concern is Quick, but i have faith in Allaire to work his magic like he usually does. Halak was no hell til Christmas last year either. This is a much improved team than what started last season. Lets get this going!

 

[duhmetreE]

You already did...was said a few times, Larry Brooks reported it as well

I'm referring to Laffy working hard

 

[Machinehead]

Really? How many top 10 picks did colorsdo have that failed. Or tampa.?

If the devils win it all how many top 10 picks did they have fail?

How about top 5 picks failing.

Late first mean jack and many fail. You cant miss on top 10 picks and especially not top 5 picks.

All these rebuilds you fantasize had one thing in common. The top 5 picks all were hits and became major stars. Crosby, kane, ovechkin, backstrom, malkin, landeskog, mackinnon, makar, stamkos, hedman etc.

We have laf and kakko. This is the full story right there. If laff and kakko were close to any of the players above, we win the cup.

It really is that simple.

We have a good team. A really good team. We would have an amazing team if laf and kakko were hits. Better than the tampa teams that won recently.

You are right that u can mis on a high pick here or there. U cant miss on all 4 top 10s including the 1 and 2.

Recent Devils busts - Michael McLeod, Ty Smith, Alexander Holtz, Jesper Boqvist

Recent Avs busts - Tyson Jost, Alex Newhook, Martin Kaut, Connor Bleackley (hell, the Avs did a full-on second rebuild after drafting MacKinnon so that was a terrible example; during that second rebuild only Byram, Rantanen, and Makar were hits out of like 40 draft picks.)

Recent Lightning busts - Cal Foote, Nolan Foote, Jonathan Drouin, Brett Howden (their last hit in the first round was Hedman in 2007)

You're also not taking into account that Lafreniere and Kakko were consensus picks and that Andersson and Kravtsov were taken in awful drafts where the Rangers ended up with one of the best players of the first round anyway. The luck factor of what draft you have the picks in is another reason to be patient.

 

[Machinehead]

Nobody is complaining that the team were buyers at the deadline the last couple of years.

They were buyers in 2019. They didn't even have Lafreniere yet and they went on the biggest spending spree of the cap era.

They just assumed guys that they just drafted would be hits. That's dumb whether they hit or not.

 

[GAGLine]

If Shesterkin is still playing like he is, are you comfortable with a 7 year deal for 9.5-11 mill with ntc, because thats what he will get. Everything hinges on Garand who by all accounts looks to be a very good nhl goalie. If he can come in and man the net for 9 mill less a year for 3 years it's a no brainer. Lots of time to trade Shesterkin if thats the route they go, you can go right to the deadline if you want. A Shesterkin trade could net us a top line player and picks along with 9 million in cap savings. Carey Price essentially handcuffed the habs with his cap hit, and truth be told Hendrik handcuffed us a bit with his last contract.

Are you okay with trading Shesty and going with a completely unproven 22 year old goalie?

Garand played well at the end of the year and in the playoffs, but his overall numbers were subpar. He's not ready for the NHL yet and he's going to spend the entire year in the AHL. Do you just want to cross your fingers and hope that he can handle the job? What if he can't?

I don't know what Shesty will get on his next deal, or for how long. I know that Hellebuyck just got 8.5 x 7. I know Sorokin got 8.25 x 8. I know Vasilevskiy got 9.5 x 8 a few years ago, but he has won cups.

I'm comfortable paying Shesty market value. I'm also comfortable with the idea that even if we sign him for 7 or 8 years, that doesn't mean we have to keep him for 7 or 8 years, as long as we don't screw up the movement clauses. And I'm also comfortable with the idea that he can play out that contract with the Rangers, because I expect he'll still be at the top of his game for the life of the deal.

We can have a goalie making 9.5 mil and still win a cup. That just means we have to save money in other places. Maybe guys like Othmann, Perreault and whomever else we draft can actually contribute on their ELCs.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

No, I do see your point.

I'm just kind of chalking it up to being realistic. There's no way in hell this team sells next deadline based on their recent moves.

Yeah. The Rangers' whole deal is to make the playoffs. Being good but not great. Trading Shesterkin cuts against that.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah. The Rangers' whole deal is to make the playoffs. Being good but not great. Trading Shesterkin cuts against that.

That's why a lot of folks here (I was apprehensive) were really encouraged by the letter. They're finally going to be patient and build a real contender, we thought.

We can go back and forth all day on "if this one pans out; if that one pans out." It's not the point.

The point is their intentions. They were buyers 18 months after the letter went out. They went right back to the "just be good enough" formula, and without having to get into the gory details of every possible scenario, that's the result they got.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Oh yeah. It’s also a very bad idea to pay a one dimensional, declining winger who doesn’t thrive in the playoffs a top 5 in the league salary.

Yes, Panarin appears to have become a problem (based on what he's paid). His first couple of years were great though.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Recent Devils busts - Michael McLeod, Ty Smith, Alexander Holtz, Jesper Boqvist

Recent Avs busts - Tyson Jost, Alex Newhook, Martin Kaut, Connor Bleackley (hell, the Avs did a full-on second rebuild after drafting MacKinnon so that was a terrible example; during that second rebuild only Byram, Rantanen, and Makar were hits out of like 40 draft picks.)

Recent Lightning busts - Cal Foote, Nolan Foote, Jonathan Drouin, Brett Howden (their last hit in the first round was Hedman in 2007)

You're also not taking into account that Lafreniere and Kakko were consensus picks and that Andersson and Kravtsov were taken in awful drafts where the Rangers ended up with one of the best players of the first round anyway. The luck factor of what draft you have the picks in is another reason to be patient.

Look at how long Buffalo sucked too. Whiffed on countless top picks and the best one from their first round of rebuild was disgruntled and was traded. They are now only after 15 years back in the playoff picture with what will be a scary team in two or three years if Levi turns out to be the real deal.

 

[Profet]

Yes, Panarin appears to have become a problem (based on what he's paid). His first couple of years were great though.

You can't look at that in a vacuum. Panarin was signed pre-covid. Everyone (including myself) thought the cap would be much higher today. That contract looks a lot different if the cap moved as expected.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Recent Devils busts - Michael McLeod, Ty Smith, Alexander Holtz, Jesper Boqvist

Recent Avs busts - Tyson Jost, Alex Newhook, Martin Kaut, Connor Bleackley (hell, the Avs did a full-on second rebuild after drafting MacKinnon so that was a terrible example; during that second rebuild only Byram, Rantanen, and Makar were hits out of like 40 draft picks.)

Recent Lightning busts - Cal Foote, Nolan Foote, Jonathan Drouin, Brett Howden (their last hit in the first round was Hedman in 2007)

You're also not taking into account that Lafreniere and Kakko were consensus picks and that Andersson and Kravtsov were taken in awful drafts where the Rangers ended up with one of the best players of the first round anyway. The luck factor of what draft you have the picks in is another reason to be patient.

2009.

Tampa is a bit of a unicorn in terms of team building in the sense where they f***ing SMASHED the Point and Kucherov picks who were taken outside of the 1st round (2nd and 3rd round pick, respectively.) They turned into the best player and a top 3 player in their respective draft years and are both legitimate star players. That doesn't happen very often or in most drafts (wasn't our pick, but Fox is very much that guy in his draft year. Igor too but if you think goaltending is voodoo at the NHL level, it's even more so when you're scouting it pre draft so it doesn't count), they just happened to hit on those guys... twice in a span of 4 drafts.

I'll say this: You don't need to live in the basement for a decade or hit on every top 10 pick (Tampa, unicorn status and all, has had their share of misses in general in that area.) Bringing in good players at the right time is really most of it. Panarin and Trouba were bad moves considering where the franchise was at the time that they were made. With Trouba he was at least young enough where you could understand the thought process. Panarin was a dumb idea no matter how you slice it, especially after all of the top talents we've seen become available since he was signed. I would have MUCH rather given up a expensive prospect/player package for pretty much all of those guys while giving more time for in house evaluation of certain guys/other guys we could have added along the way. Instead we have a guy who was amazing for a year and is now not nearly as good eating up a bunch of cap space.

 

[Ruggs225]

Recent Devils busts - Michael McLeod, Ty Smith, Alexander Holtz, Jesper Boqvist

Recent Avs busts - Tyson Jost, Alex Newhook, Martin Kaut, Connor Blackley (hell, the Avs did a full-on second rebuild after drafting MacKinnon so that was a terrible example; during that second rebuild only Byram, Rantanen, and Makar were hits out of like 40 draft picks.)

Recent Lightning busts - Cal Foote, Nolan Foote, Jonathan Drouin, Brett Howden (their last hit in the first round was Hedman in 2007)

You're also not taking into account that Lafreniere and Kakko were consensus picks and that Andersson and Kravtsov were taken in awful drafts where the Rangers ended up with one of the best players of the first round anyway. The luck factor of what draft you have the picks in is another reason to be patient.

Devils- not one bust in top 10. Holtz is closest but still has time and i think has looked ok this preseason. Smith was 17th and bovist was second round.

Colorado - rantaanan was picked 2 years afte mack. And mack wasnt even a superstar. They didnt do a second rebuild. They were still in their first. They had a fluke playoff year in the middle. Kaut was 16, jost was 10, bleackly was 23, hishon was 17. Their top 10 picks all hit except jost. Mack, makar, duchene, landeskog, byram, rantaanan.

Tampa - had three top 10 misses but luckily turned one into Segachev. They also had luck with Kucherov, point etc to offset. But they nailed hedman and stamkos.

So again these teams didnt really miss high draft picks with the exception of tampa who made shrewd trades and hit home runs llater in draft.

We missed on every top 10 pick. And yes even though kakko and laf were consensus, it still looks like misses as of now. And i would have drafted them too. If laf and kakko played pike mack and rantaanan we win the cup.

It really is that easy.

And more rebuild fail then succeed. Even with all the patience in the world. That is a fact.

We had an unique opportunity to nav two stars in panarin and trouba for peanuts. That was to go along with our uoung star in zib. And our shiny #2 cant miss kakko.

Its not like we went out to get over the hill vets.

We just had unfortunate luck, and yes some unfortunate luck with high picks.

 

[Savant]

Panarin and Trouba have value IMO and are moveable. Zibs we're stuck with.

There's always some sucker GM. The biggest move is to get rid of Trouba next offseason. He will fall off FAST imo. He already can't move.... that's not going to get better.

They are not movable unless we are attaching capital. Players with similar contract with shorter terms have proven to be unmovabl. It is extremel foolish to count on this. And yeah they have NMCs

 

[MrAlmost]

You're overthinking it. It's not about what scenario happened or didn't happen.

The roster they have now is mostly an old roster that was never good enough. That's it. It's very simple.

Remove Fox, Lafreniere, and Kakko, and these are just the covid Rangers that missed the real playoffs multiple times and got bodied in the bubble, only older and without Buchnevich.

They never went through the process of building something better.

You gotta remove more than those guys. Cuylle and Jones now, Schneider, Miller, Chytil, Lindgren. I mean the Rangers have a shitload of their own picks in the lineup. And high up to boot. This conversation doesn't happen if literally just Laf is the player he was said to be. 1LW ala Huberdeau.

Also, it is objective reality that an elite goaltender is not needed to win a cup since the lockout nor do they even need to turn in an elite performance, as keeps getting stated. An argument might actually be it's a net negative due to cap hit and a goalies inability to effect the game besides making save. Even though that is still very important.

The game has changed. Before the lockout the list of elite goalies to win was much longer. The nature of the sport allowed them to nearly dictate the game. It was slower, less skilled skaters. Teams are now legitimately 3 scoring lines deep and their 4th line ain't no slouched either. That's not even talking about defensemen. Things change.

 

[I Eat Crow]

No, I do see your point.

I'm just kind of chalking it up to being realistic. There's no way in hell this team sells next deadline based on their recent moves.

The Rangers can just as easily be in 6th place next year as 3rd or 4th. Hell, that could even be the case this year if they get shitty injury luck

 

[Ruggs225]

The Rangers can just as easily be in 6th place next year as 3rd or 4th. Hell, that could even be the case this year if they get shitty injury luck

Or maybe kreider or panarin get injured. Laff is forcefed top min and PP time and becomes a superstar. Then kreider or panarin come back for playoffs and we win cup.

Or shesty gets injured and we end up top 5.

 

[will1066]

Devils- not one bust in top 10. Holtz is closest but still has time and i think has looked ok this preseason. Smith was 17th and bovist was second round.

Colorado - rantaanan was picked 2 years afte mack. And mack wasnt even a superstar. They didnt do a second rebuild. They were still in their first. They had a fluke playoff year in the middle. Kaut was 16, jost was 10, bleackly was 23, hishon was 17. Their top 10 picks all hit except jost. Mack, makar, duchene, landeskog, byram, rantaanan.

Tampa - had three top 10 misses but luckily turned one into Segachev. They also had luck with Kucherov, point etc to offset. But they nailed hedman and stamkos.

So again these teams didnt really miss high draft picks with the exception of tampa who made shrewd trades and hit home runs llater in draft.

We missed on every top 10 pick. And yes even though kakko and laf were consensus, it still looks like misses as of now. And i would have drafted them too. If laf and kakko played pike mack and rantaanan we win the cup.

It really is that easy.

And more rebuild fail then succeed. Even with all the patience in the world. That is a fact.

We had an unique opportunity to nav two stars in panarin and trouba for peanuts. That was to go along with our uoung star in zib. And our shiny #2 cant miss kakko.

Its not like we went out to get over the hill vets.

We just had unfortunate luck, and yes some unfortunate luck with high picks.

And not knocking on mental health, but really unfortunate in landing players with issues. Laf has compete issues. Kakko can't seem to jibe with NHL coaches. Kravtsov was a spoiled brat. Andersson was a total shock. And this after the letter proclaiming to get players with character. They're characters, alright.

 

[Avery16]

If we moved Shesty for cap savings this GM would just find three more Goodrows to waste it on.

 

[Machinehead]

And not knocking on mental health, but really unfortunate in landing players with issues. Laf has compete issues. Kakko can't seem to jibe with NHL coaches. Kravtsov was a spoiled brat. Andersson was a total shock. And this after the letter proclaiming to get players with character. They're characters, alright.

The Gorton regime was guilty of conflating "skating hard because of compete-level" with "skating hard because he can't skate."

 

[duhmetreE]

If we moved Shesty for cap savings this GM would just find three more Goodrows to waste it on.

or get another #1OA top paid 'elite player' that turns into a 3rd line 2way player with little to no playoffs success.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

We aren't moving on from Igor

You don't "Move on" from a elite top 3 NHL goalie while he is in his prime. Thank GOD some of you aren't the GM.

You get rid of the garbage.