Roster Building Thread - Part VIII (2023-24 season)

[hardnosed]

If we were to include him in a trade, it would be a trade to replace him.

That trade is like finding a needle in a haystack. Just not very realistic that everything falls together where Drury finds a perfect match. First off, eliminate all rebuilding teams because Lindgren has only one year left before he's an UFA. That leaves you with contenders who are trying to do the same as us; make themselves better. So he has to go to a team that needs his style. So we aren't getting his style of Dman back. Maybe we get a younger LD with some offensive ability. That what everyone wants. But would Drury and Lav want that. Not a chance. He should be moved in the off-season because while Drury is trading Lindgren, he can also re structure the whole defense.

 

[doomscroll]

I have a hard time seeing Lindgren being moved just because he’s clearly an organizational darling, but how would y’all gauge swapping him either for a pending UFA LD or an older guy with a couple years left at market rate (Oleksiak, as an example.)

Offseason if Lindgren is traded for a UFA LD:
Qualify Kakko at 2.4, bridge Schneider at the same rate, call-up Othmann and Edstrom. League-min 13th. ~$7.4 million remaining for Gustafsson and another LD with Jones either 7D or traded. This assumes Chytil is in the line-up, of course.

There are a few interesting pieces we like, but could be added as a sweetener for a younger D - one of Berard or Sykora, perhaps (preferably not the latter). Way too many wingers in the system not to capitalize on their value.

 

[Synergy27]

People still pining for Kane seem to forget that the playoffs are about speed, desire, and crashing the net. We’ll see if Bread decides to play that way this year - it looks like he is going to try.

Kane is physically unable to and we don’t need him on the PP. No role here. Very glad he wasn’t signed.

Get me another player to put the opposing D under duress and cause some havoc to create the bounces that you need to get to win 50/50 playoff games.

 

[Machinehead]

That trade is like finding a needle in a haystack. Just not very realistic that everything falls together where Drury finds a perfect match. First off, eliminate all rebuilding teams because Lindgren has only one year left before he's an UFA. That leaves you with contenders who are trying to do the same as us; make themselves better. So he has to go to a team that needs his style. So we aren't getting his style of Dman back. Maybe we get a younger LD with some offensive ability. That what everyone wants. But would Drury and Lav want that. Not a chance. He should be moved in the off-season because while Drury is trading Lindgren, he can also re structure the whole defense.

We should trade him in the summer when he has even less time on his deal? The idea that there just won't be a deal and then it just materializes 2-3 months later doesn't make sense.

We're obviously not trading Lindgren for a straight upgrade on Lindgren. He would be part of a deal to clear space and to enhance what we're offering.

He's 25 years old. Teams in a variety of situations would be interested in him for either a run or just a chance to sign him.

Once again, we're boiling our options down to "offense guy" or "defense guy" and that's the absolute worst way to analyze defenseman. We need a better guy and Lindgren can certainly be part of that package.

Maybe he isn't and he slides down to the third pair. We still desperately need to upgrade at LD.

 

[bhamill]

It's crazy to me how some people see Lindgren.

A solid piece? I'll buy it.

A good solider? Hell yes.

100% untouchable? Hilarious.

He's not untouchable, that is nuts. If you get value, or even get overpay, ANYONE can be moved in the interest of the team.

 

[hardnosed]

We should trade him in the summer when he has even less time on his deal? The idea that there just won't be a deal and then it just materializes 2-3 months later doesn't make sense.

We're obviously not trading Lindgren for a straight upgrade on Lindgren. He would be part of a deal to clear space and to enhance what we're offering.

He's 25 years old. Teams in a variety of situations would be interested in him for either a run or just a chance to sign him.

Once again, we're boiling our options down to "offense guy" or "defense guy" and that's the absolute worst way to analyze defenseman. We need a better guy and Lindgren can certainly be part of that package.

Maybe he isn't and he slides down to the third pair. We still desperately need to upgrade at LD.

Unfortunately Drury locked himself into the offensive or defensive type guys by bringing Gus in. If you notice, the past 3 years we had guys like Nemeth, Ben, Mikkola, that old Flyers guy, even Tinordi in that 6th, 7th spot. This year we went with Gus and Jones. Gus has been a huge improvement. However, it means that trading Lindgren is almost impossible in season. And before everyone screams and says I'm wrong, please know that I'm not stating my opinion on what we should do. I really pay attention to coaches' tendencies. I'm not a coach apologist. They do some stupid shit and there are some horrendous coaches. But if you watch what is being done with player deployment, Drury and Lav are not trading Lindgren and Goodrow, for that matter, before the deadline.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

He's not untouchable, that is nuts. If you get value, or even get overpay, ANYONE can be moved in the interest of the team.

Doubt anyone is saying he's untouchable but trading him and getting someone back at the same level and pay would be hard to do for a team with cup ideas and limited cap space, especially given his importance to the dressingroom. I dont see any reason to move him at this point.

Unfortunately Drury locked himself into the offensive or defensive type guys by bringing Gus in. If you notice, the past 3 years we had guys like Nemeth, Ben, Mikkola, that old Flyers guy, even Tinordi in that 6th, 7th spot. This year we went with Gus and Jones. Gus has been a huge improvement. However, it means that trading Lindgren is almost impossible in season. And before everyone screams and says I'm wrong, please know that I'm not stating my opinion on what we should do. I really pay attention to coaches' tendencies. I'm not a coach apologist. They do some stupid shit and there are some horrendous coaches. But if you watch what is being done with player deployment, Drury and Lav are not trading Lindgren and Goodrow, for that matter, before the deadline.

I believe we'll add some depth on d at the deadline

 

[bhamill]

Doubt anyone is saying he's untouchable but trading him and getting someone back at the same level and pay would be hard to do for a team with cup ideas and limited cap space, especially given his importance to the dressingroom. I dont see any reason to move him at this point.



I believe we'll add some depth on d at the deadline

The ability to move him and the GET the VALUE we need is absolutely the issue. The Cap is a real issue regarding ANY move we make.

 

[Machinehead]

EK is not the same talent as Fox. EK was a generational skater. Fox is not.

2ndly.. The meta has changed. Your defenseman cannot be as offensively inept as Lindgren in the top4. Stay CISed.

Not only has the meta changed, but this is another example of why I hate binning defensemen into offense or defense. Sure, Karlsson is a pure offensive defenseman, and it might be a good idea to put him with a guy that does nothing but defense.

Fox is not an offensive defenseman. His best asset is arguably 5v5 defense and his deployment is extremely defensive. His transition game, honestly, is not that good. He's elite in the offensive zone but doesn't shuttle the puck particularly well compared to the elite defensemen in the game. He's better at defense than he is at moving through the neutral zone. Is that an "offensive defenseman?" I don't know, it just leaves me feeling like the categorization is obsolete.

What is Miller? He carries the puck at an elite level. He passes the puck like Dale Purinton. Aren't those both "offense?" He excels at one and blows at the other. Is he good at defense? Kind of, yeah. His "defense stuff" like gaps are really good but he gets himself in trouble because he can't move it. Where we do we draw that line between offense and defense?

What is Trouba? He feels like a defensive defenseman. He's not tho. He certainly hits a lot, which is certainly useful, and I'm not interested in arguing that it isn't. Despite his physicality, he's bad at defense in every measurable way. He bleeds shots, he bleeds chances, and he bleeds goals. You know what he's good at? Offensive analytics. His pinching is underrated and he gets his shot through. He kind of excels at offense even though he isn't good at passing which is why he and Miller aren't a good pair.

Gustafsson feels like an offensive defenseman and I certainly buy it, but his defensive results are good because he moves the puck away from danger. Again, where do we draw the line?

What is Schneider? He also feels like a defensive defenseman. He's also not, really. His positioning f***ing blows, and that's the main tenet of what would be considered defensive skill in the NHL. You know what I like the most about Schneider? His rush offense. He's actually pretty good at it. What's defensive about Schneider? He's big I guess? He's not that big. I'm not saying he's useless but where does "defensive defenseman" come from?

Is it just points? It feels like sometimes it's just points, but Trouba puts up points and people still don't acknowledge that he's better at offense. It's like this weird mishmash of points, height, and this instinct to bin everything into one category.

It's almost as if these are layered, nuanced hockey players with a ton of varying skills.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The offensive D with a pure defensive D pairing is something that doesn't really happen as often as you want to believe. It's not 1999 anymore.

Vancouver has flipped the script and basically paired 2 OFD on their top pair and its worked out tremendously for them. Most top pair "defensive" D aren't completely inept at offense like Lindgren is and Lindgren's defensive game isn't good enough (especially this season) to really make up for it.

There are upgrades available on the market. Whether or not Drury will actually do it is another conversation entirely, but its one that should be had.

 

[hardnosed]

Again, if you look at how the coaches use the players, you will see what they believe about their players. Lindgren has never set foot on the ice in OT. He doesn't play 4 on 4 either unless we are way ahead. So obviously the coaches know they don't want him with the puck. Yet he's out there defending when the other team has an empty net. You won't catch Gus killing a penalty unless 2 other defensemen are in the box because they don't think he's good at it.
I have voiced my opinions on Fox and Miller. Absolutely hate it. Wasting Miller imo. But maybe a compromise to appease all these guys that hate Lindgren as a 1st pair dmen which he really isn't because Miller and Trouba play 5 minutes more a game than he does, is to simply switch Gus and Lindgren.

 

[Machinehead]

Again, if you look at how the coaches use the players, you will see what they believe about their players. Lindgren has never set foot on the ice in OT. He doesn't play 4 on 4 either unless we are way ahead. So obviously the coaches know they don't want him with the puck. Yet he's out there defending when the other team has an empty net. You won't catch Gus killing a penalty unless 2 other defensemen are in the box because they don't think he's good at it.
I have voiced my opinions on Fox and Miller. Absolutely hate it. Wasting Miller imo. But maybe a compromise to appease all these guys that hate Lindgren as a 1st pair dmen which he really isn't because Miller and Trouba play 5 minutes more a game than he does, is to simply switch Gus and Lindgren.

How is it wasting Miller?

The implication seems to be that he won't be able to carry the puck because Fox has to be babysat.

Fox is better at defense than 85-90% of the league. He would be doing the babysitting on most pairs.

Somebody who can skate and really drag the puck around, which is Fox's only weakness, would be absolutely perfect for Fox.

 

[hardnosed]

How is it wasting Miller?

The implication seems to be that he won't be able to carry the puck because Fox has to be babysat.

Fox is better at defense than 85-90% of the league. He would be doing the babysitting on most pairs.

Somebody who can skate and really drag the puck around, which is Fox's only weakness, would be absolutely perfect for Fox.

Because Miller seems like a type of guy who would play more defensive playing with Fox. He would defer to Fox.
BTW, your last paragraph, doesn't that describe Gus?

 

[IDvsEGO]

How is it wasting Miller?

The implication seems to be that he won't be able to carry the puck because Fox has to be babysat.

Fox is better at defense than 85-90% of the league. He would be doing the babysitting on most pairs.

Somebody who can skate and really drag the puck around, which is Fox's only weakness, would be absolutely perfect for Fox.

Fox is great at defense, at shutting down passes. Fox is also not great at clearing out in front of a goalie, at board work against big forwards. Fox is also not great with speed, he's great positionally but that only covers for that weakness, he can and will get burned on occasion.

Lindgren does the heavy lifting on the boards, does the heavy lifting in front of the net. Frees up fox to play a more unstructured game and cut off passes early, jump plays to create an outlet, which is the strength of his game.

 

[Machinehead]

Because Miller seems like a type of guy who would play more defensive playing with Fox. He would defer to Fox.
BTW, your last paragraph, doesn't that describe Gus?

It describes Miller also. His best asset is carrying the puck.

Fox is great at defense, at shutting down passes. Fox is also not great at clearing out in front of a goalie, at board work against big forwards. Fox is also not great with speed, he's great positionally but that only covers for that weakness, he can and will get burned on occasion.

Lindgren does the heavy lifting on the boards, does the heavy lifting in front of the net. Frees up fox to play a more unstructured game and cut off passes early, jump plays to create an outlet, which is the strength of his game.

Ok, sure, Fox gets bullied in front sometimes.

Again, can't of a better partner than like 9'8" K'Andre Miller.

 

[hardnosed]

Fox is great at defense, at shutting down passes. Fox is also not great at clearing out in front of a goalie, at board work against big forwards. Fox is also not great with speed, he's great positionally but that only covers for that weakness, he can and will get burned on occasion.

Lindgren does the heavy lifting on the boards, does the heavy lifting in front of the net. Frees up fox to play a more unstructured game and cut off passes early, jump plays to create an outlet, which is the strength of his game.

Personally, I don't don't see them breaking up Fox and Lindgren. But if they did, I'd prefer Gus up there than Miller.

 

[hardnosed]

It describes Miller also. His best asset is carrying the puck.

Ok, sure, Fox gets bullied in front sometimes.

Again, can't of a better partner than like 9'8" K'Andre Miller.

Unfortunately, I think Miller will carry the puck less playing with Fox than he does playing with Trouba. That is my #1 reason not putting Miller with Fox. I want more Miller lugging the puck and if he can add distributing to an open forward for a great chance, the better we would be.

 

[RangerBoy]

People still pining for Kane seem to forget that the playoffs are about speed, desire, and crashing the net. We’ll see if Bread decides to play that way this year - it looks like he is going to try.

Kane is physically unable to and we don’t need him on the PP. No role here. Very glad he wasn’t signed.

Get me another player to put the opposing D under duress and cause some havoc to create the bounces that you need to get to win 50/50 playoff games.

Speed? Will over skill.

 

[Machinehead]

Unfortunately, I think Miller will carry the puck less playing with Fox than he does playing with Trouba. That is my #1 reason not putting Miller with Fox. I want more Miller lugging the puck and if he can add distributing to an open forward for a great chance, the better we would be.

Why would he do it less with Fox when it's something Fox isn't good at?

You're so concerned about Miller-Fox but somehow not concerned about Miller-Trouba. Neither one of them could pass to a guy 5 feet in front of them and they're paired together always.

 

[Savant]

We should trade him in the summer when he has even less time on his deal? The idea that there just won't be a deal and then it just materializes 2-3 months later doesn't make sense.

We're obviously not trading Lindgren for a straight upgrade on Lindgren. He would be part of a deal to clear space and to enhance what we're offering.

He's 25 years old. Teams in a variety of situations would be interested in him for either a run or just a chance to sign him.

Once again, we're boiling our options down to "offense guy" or "defense guy" and that's the absolute worst way to analyze defenseman. We need a better guy and Lindgren can certainly be part of that package.

Maybe he isn't and he slides down to the third pair. We still desperately need to upgrade at LD.

There is definitely a hockey trade out there for Lindgren. He has a useful skill set. They can move him for a better puck mover and it probably helps the team long term. Team that needs a D and has extra forwards? Sure. Don’t think we need to dump him for futures

 

[Machinehead]

Even if that scenario did play out, so what?

Miller becomes one of the top shutdown defensemen in the league but he puts up like 5 fewer points?

Oh no. The world as we know it is over and there's no point to living.

 

[hardnosed]

Why would he do it less with Fox when it's something Fox isn't good at?

You're so concerned about Miller-Fox but somehow not concerned about Miller-Trouba. Neither one of them could pass to a guy 5 feet in front of them and they're paired together always.

Because I gave up on breaking up Miller and Trouba. I got a feeling that there's a reason we aren't privy to that explains why Trouba and Miller is in concrete. We have seen injuries take out different Dmen in the past few years and no matter who is in the lineup, we still get Miller and Trouba.

Even if that scenario did play out, so what?

Miller becomes one of the top shutdown defensemen in the league but he puts up like 5 fewer points?

Oh no. The world as we know it is over and there's no point to living.

Because he has a chance to be special as a 2 way defenseman. If you are satisfied with Miller's ceiling being a top shutdown defenseman, by all means, put him with Fox. I'm not at that point, yet.

 

[Machinehead]

Because I gave up on breaking up Miller and Trouba. I got a feeling that there's a reason we aren't privy to that explains why Trouba and Miller is in concrete. We have seen injuries take out different Dmen in the past few years and no matter who is in the lineup, we still get Miller and Trouba.


Because he has a chance to be special as a 2 way defenseman. If you are satisfied with Miller's ceiling being a top shutdown defenseman, by all means, put him with Fox. I'm not at that point, yet.

If there's something we're not privy to then the Rangers are wrong about that. They're a garbage pair.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

Today’s Media Availability:

 

[NYR Viper]

The answer to Fox's deficiencies isn't to put Miller with Fox, it's to trade for and sign Hanifan. Then you have Miller and Hanifan split up on two pairing and the speed and overall talent on the back-end goes up considerably.