Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part VII: Now with less frenzy!

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Someone I'd keep a very close eye on this year for July 1st 2019 is Brock Nelson. Rangers wanted him. Gordie said they were very high on him. If he has another average year, and guys like Hayes/Zuc are moved out for futures, I can see him brought in to form a very good third line with Howden.

Also to everyone upset with basically the same roster, this is not an AV run product anymore. KZB line is not set in stone. If McLeod and Holland are 66% of the 4th line over any of the rookies night in and night out, then Houston we have a problem. For all we know Lettieri/Nieves/Fontaine are the regular 4th line.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Say it with me guys: THIS IS A LOST YEAR. The worst we are, the better. There is no middle ground on that. Want to compete sooner. Hope for a top 5 pick? That will accelerate the rebuild. If the Rangers had gotten Dahlin this past draft you would have seen a completely different offseason. The players we need to compete are at the top half of the 2019 draft. That's the best thing to hope for right now. The only thing to hope for.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

The Skinner trade sent a shudder up my spine. If that’s the market for a forward one year away from UFA with pretty solid credentials, it means our candidates may be camping here for quite a while.

Just because a bad GM doesn't get full value for a player doesn't mean that's the market price. See: Edmonton.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Say it with me guys: THIS IS A LOST YEAR. The worst we are, the better. There is no middle ground on that. Want to compete sooner. Hope for a top 5 pick? That will accelerate the rebuild. If the Rangers had gotten Dahlin this past draft you would have seen a completely different offseason. The players we need to compete are at the top half of the 2019 draft. That's the best thing to hope for right now. The only thing to hope for.

We won't know that until Thanksgiving. Even last year's squad with the awful October was in first place at one point and wasn't really toast until after the Winter Classic.

The NHL is a league where every season at least two teams are greater than the sum of their parts. Look no further than the SCF this season. Washington won but this was not the best team they've iced in the Ovechkin era. Not even close. But it was the most clutch.

This Rangers squad on paper looks like a bottom 5, but this team actually has more talent on it than let's say the 2008-09 and 2010-11 squads. The later of that really didn't have Gaborik/Drury/Prospal at all that year but made the playoffs and could have given Washington a tough series if Cally was around. If Zuc/Hayes/Kreider/Ziba/Buch/Shattenkirk all hit 50ish points, and the other guys contribute, and if the D system is actually normal, despite what people say, this could be a Wild Card team.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

No. So what is the problem?

Sucking to get a better draft pick accomplishes nothing. We could finish last and still pick 4th overall. It is pointless. Not only that, but being that bad does nothing but hurt the confidence of your young players that you are trying to groom. You want them to have competent line mates. You want them to be playing with other skilled players.

Obviously the trade market made it such that Gorton decided to resign all his players and hope that a better spot arises for a trade. Nothing wrong with that strategy. Teams get desperate and overpay at the deadline. They aren't desperate to make moves in the off season.

You continue to be critical of management for the sake of being critical. You aren't even attempting constructive criticism at the moment.

The f***?!?!?!?! That would be awesome. Top 5 picks win cups. The myth of "bad teams hurt young players" could not be more overdrawn. Have them learn about adversity early on. Have them have an idea about what it takes to overcome it. If that kind of environment causes them to not develop then they weren't going to develop anyway. When the Blackhawks were shit, Toews looked at Kane on the bench and said "We gotta fill this place". There was no mistaking that team at the time, they were dog shit. Both top 5 picks. 3x Cup winners. They got over it.

Sucking to get a better draft pick does everything. For every Islanders there is a Penguins. For every Oilers there is a Blackhawks. for every Hurricanes there is a LA Kings. Management is the difference.

This team accomplishes NOTHING by being mediocre. There are no short measures. Want a shorter rebuild? Give us the best shot at a surefire #1 center in Jack Hughes. That's a lot better of a plan than trying to be fake competitive because you're worrying that a losing environment would stunt the growth of prospects. Again, the only thing that is going to stunt the growth of prospects is the prospects themselves. They will have all the opportunity to play and prove themselves.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

We won't know that until Thanksgiving. Even last year's squad with the awful October was in first place at one point and wasn't really toast until after the Winter Classic.

The NHL is a league where every season at least two teams are greater than the sum of their parts. Look no further than the SCF this season. Washington won but this was not the best team they've iced in the Ovechkin era. Not even close. But it was the most clutch.

This Rangers squad on paper looks like a bottom 5, but this team actually has more talent on it than let's say the 2008-09 and 2010-11 squads. The later of that really didn't have Gaborik/Drury/Prospal at all that year but made the playoffs and could have given Washington a tough series if Cally was around. If Zuc/Hayes/Kreider/Ziba/Buch/Shattenkirk all hit 50ish points, and the other guys contribute, and if the D system is actually normal, despite what people say, this could be a Wild Card team.

Hope that the Rangers squad on paper is the Rangers squad we get this year. That's the only thing that will accelerate the rebuild. getting top 5 talent in this draft.

The Rangers being a Wild Card team sets the rebuild back at least a year, and quite possibly more.

 

[JimmyG89]

New season, new coach, roughly the same players, but you've got a lot of guys trying to become NHL players and guys who are trying to stay.

Lots of healthy competition. That's going to lead to the team producing at a better rate. Defense even knows they have to show something because there are kids right behind them coming. No player is safe.

 

[TheTakedown]

The Rangers were icing a bad defense in part because of injuries and lost Kreider and Zibanejad, too. So if that all happens again, what has changed? The likes of O’Gara and Gilmour and potentially others rookies would be doing exactly what was done last year. The team does not have the depth for the same things to happen.

This often gets overlooked. Thanks for pointing out

 

[TheTakedown]

Reading skinner was vetoing trades everywhere. Really limited Carolina.

Hayes and the rest didn’t have the leverage.

And yet he allowed one to....Buffalo? The middle of f***ing nowhere?

Links plz...

 

[bobbop]

The ****?!?!?!?! That would be awesome. Top 5 picks win cups. The myth of "bad teams hurt young players" could not be more overdrawn. Have them learn about adversity early on. Have them have an idea about what it takes to overcome it. If that kind of environment causes them to not develop then they weren't going to develop anyway. When the Blackhawks were ****, Toews looked at Kane on the bench and said "We gotta fill this place". There was no mistaking that team at the time, they were dog ****. Both top 5 picks. 3x Cup winners. They got over it.

Sucking to get a better draft pick does everything. For every Islanders there is a Penguins. For every Oilers there is a Blackhawks. for every Hurricanes there is a LA Kings. Management is the difference.

This team accomplishes NOTHING by being mediocre. There are no short measures. Want a shorter rebuild? Give us the best shot at a surefire #1 center in Jack Hughes. That's a lot better of a plan than trying to be fake competitive because you're worrying that a losing environment would stunt the growth of prospects. Again, the only thing that is going to stunt the growth of prospects is the prospects themselves. They will have all the opportunity to play and prove themselves.

Tonight I heard on NHL radio about the Islanders having three top 5 picks from 2010-12. Nino at #5, Strome at #5 and Reinhart at #4. For good measure you can throw in Dal Colle at #5 in 2014. That worked out real well, didn’t it?

There’s one additional complication - With the lottery structured the way it is nowadays, there no guarantee that being really bad will get you a top three pick. Just look what happened to Colorado last year.

Bottom line, throwing in the towel in September guarantees you nothing. I would be personally embarrassed if my team took that route. I don’t like rebuilding one damn bit but I do like the Rangers approach to this point. I don’t expect next year to be all that good but I do expect this will mark the beginning of the end of the rebuild. I know there will be more painful departures but hopefully they will start to be balanced out by what should become a series of welcome additions.

It would be nice to get that rare franchise changing player at #1 (or possibly#2) but good luck planning on that.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Tonight I heard on NHL radio about the Islanders having three top 5 picks from 2010-12. Nino at #5, Strome at #5 and Reinhart at #4. For good measure you can throw in Dal Colle at #5 in 2014. That worked out real well, didn’t it?

There’s one additional complication - With the lottery structured the way it is nowadays, there no guarantee that being really bad will get you a top three pick. Just look what happened to Colorado last year.

Bottom line, throwing in the towel in September guarantees you nothing. I would be personally embarrassed if my team took that route. I don’t like rebuilding one damn bit but I do like the Rangers approach to this point. I don’t expect next year to be all that good but I do expect this will mark the beginning of the end of the rebuild. I know there will be more painful departures but hopefully they will start to be balanced out by what should become a series of welcome additions.

It would be nice to get that rare franchise changing player at #1 (or possibly#2) but good luck planning on that.

Not sure how you missed me saying for every Islanders there's a Penguins, Blackhawks, Kings - How'd it work for them? I have lots of respect for you bobbop, but come on now.

Throwing in the towel guarantees you nothing. Rather take that than guarantee of mediocrity any day of the week. The Rangers management should be doing everything they can to steer their way towards trying to get that pick. Yeah, the lottery is different. But at the end of the day the worst teams are still picking top 5. Toronto got Matthews. Buffalo got Dahlin. NJ moved from 5 to 1 and Colorado still got a top 5 pick. That is worth a lot more than being "competitive" and missing the playoffs. There is absolutely no way to deny that.

It's well established you don't have the appetite for a long rebuild. If that's the case you should be hoping for them to be as bad as possible this year, because that's the only way you're getting you're wish. Gorton flat out said this year that if they had gotten Dahlin then it would have accelerated things. Jump on that Hughes bandwagon sooner rather than later.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

A lot of that occurred after the letter, so I’m not sure how many conclusions can be drawn from their record.

Not to mention injuries and a team that was no longer responsive to the coach.

I’m not saying the team will be any good. I’m just saying using what happened last year to project this year doesn’t work.

As a direct correlation, no, but letter/coach/injuries or not, they were that bad last year.

The roster compared to the one that they had prior to the letter is easily worse. I think those who think this is a bubble team don't realize just how big the gap that they need to close is, especially since most of the teams who finished ahead of us got better this offseason and the ones that didn't for the most part stayed the same with the Islanders being the lone exception.

A lot of the cliched arguments I've read here (HUNGRY! Fighting for JOBS! Something to prove!) apply to all 30 teams. The coaching change is a bit of an X factor, but theres only so much they can do with what they have to work with.

the NHL is a league where every season at least two teams are greater than the sum of their parts. Look no further than the SCF this season. Washington won but this was not the best team they've iced in the Ovechkin era. Not even close. But it was the most clutch.

This Rangers squad on paper looks like a bottom 5, but this team actually has more talent on it than let's say the 2008-09 and 2010-11 squads. The later of that really didn't have Gaborik/Drury/Prospal at all that year but made the playoffs and could have given Washington a tough series if Cally was around. If Zuc/Hayes/Kreider/Ziba/Buch/Shattenkirk all hit 50ish points, and the other guys contribute, and if the D system is actually normal, despite what people say, this could be a Wild Card team.

Thats 7 ifs. They essentially had that many 50ish point scorers last year, didn't exactly end well for them.

I'm confident that the D system will change for the better, that one is pretty much a given because if there is a worse system than the one AV employed, I'd love to see it (preferably not here.)

Also, the Caps were still a pretty f***ing good team. They won the division and they had players like OV, Backstrom and Kuznetzov. Heading into the playoffs with out the weight of expectations was huge for them, but thats an entirely different conversation. Point is, we don't have those players.

Not only do I think you're severely underrating the talent on the 2010-11 team (I like that roster much better than the one we have right now) the biggest difference is the version of Hank from the teams you mentioned to the version we have right now. Prime Hank could have dragged last year's Sabres onto the playoff bubble. If we get the version from 2 years ago we're finishing in the bottom 5, if we get the version from the 2nd half of 2015-16 we're headed into Hughes territory.

 

[bobbop]

Not sure how you missed me saying for every Islanders there's a Penguins, Blackhawks, Kings - How'd it work for them? I have lots of respect for you bobbop, but come on now.

Throwing in the towel guarantees you nothing. Rather take that than guarantee of mediocrity any day of the week. The Rangers management should be doing everything they can to steer their way towards trying to get that pick. Yeah, the lottery is different. But at the end of the day the worst teams are still picking top 5. Toronto got Matthews. Buffalo got Dahlin. NJ moved from 5 to 1 and Colorado still got a top 5 pick. That is worth a lot more than being "competitive" and missing the playoffs. There is absolutely no way to deny that.

It's well established you don't have the appetite for a long rebuild. If that's the case you should be hoping for them to be as bad as possible this year, because that's the only way you're getting you're wish. Gorton flat out said this year that if they had gotten Dahlin then it would have accelerated things. Jump on that Hughes bandwagon sooner rather than later.

The problem with your analysis is that there are not Penguins, Blackhawks and Kings (who really don’t belong in this group) for every Islanders...there are Oilers, Panthers and Coyotes for every Penguins.

An enormous amount of luck is involved in the draft process. Look at the 2005 lottery. The Rangers had just as good a chance to get Crosby as the Penguins. The Penguins win the lottery and the Rangers end up with the 16th (and lowest possible) pick. They traded up to #12.

You are right, I don’t have a lot of stomach for a long rebuild. I’m older than most everyone here. I’m not expecting a good season this year but from this point, I’d like to see the team start to turn the corner and move quickly from there. I’m less concerned whether the Rangers draft 3rd or 6th next year than I am to see solid progress and development from the first wave of young players.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Well, if this return for Skinner was the offer that was on the table for Hayes, then I am happy Gorton didn't pull the trigger.

 

[Ori]

Were bringing back literally the same team we had at the end of February and adding healthy kreider and Shattenkirk with a better back up goalie. We’re in draft hell. 9-12 range.

I don’t see us bottoming out at all with the roster gorton decided to cling to.

Kreider Zibanejad Buchnevich
Namestnikov Chytil Zucc
Spooner Hayes Fast
Vesey Nieves Andersson
Mcleod

Skjei Shattenkirk
Smith DeAngelo
Staal Pionk
Claesson

Hank
Georgiev

That’s not a bottom 5 team. It’s also not good.

That’s where my problem arises.

Where is Libor Hájek in that lineup? I`m almost 110% certain he is NHL ready for sure. It`s a little of both Gorton said a rebuid in mind, but also a retool.

And I doubt we will see any trade moves until next deadline window in late march 2019 by the way.

• And woah u can`t have Lias our 7th pick on the 4th line.

 

[Vitto79]

Someone I'd keep a very close eye on this year for July 1st 2019 is Brock Nelson. Rangers wanted him. Gordie said they were very high on him. If he has another average year, and guys like Hayes/Zuc are moved out for futures, I can see him brought in to form a very good third line with Howden.

Also to everyone upset with basically the same roster, this is not an AV run product anymore. KZB line is not set in stone. If McLeod and Holland are 66% of the 4th line over any of the rookies night in and night out, then Houston we have a problem. For all we know Lettieri/Nieves/Fontaine are the regular 4th line.

Don’t forget Besesky rounding out that 4th line lol.

Don’t think that will happen those 3 are spares and stop gaps till kids are ready

So deal Hayes for picks and sign Nelson ? Maybe ..... I think they are dipping into free agency next year for sure after one more year of moving guys for picks and prospects

 

[Ghost of jas]

predicting that the worst case scenario will come true isn't optimistic at all

Kovie has always thought the Rangers are better than they really are. No difference here.

 

[haohmaru]

And yet he allowed one to....Buffalo? The middle of ****ing nowhere?

Links plz...

James Mirtle Retweeted
John Matisz‏Verified account @MatiszJohn 11h11 hours ago
More
Waddell on Skinner moving closer to home (Toronto): "Buffalo was always a team high on his list."

 

[NikC]

Not sure how you missed me saying for every Islanders there's a Penguins, Blackhawks, Kings - How'd it work for them? I have lots of respect for you bobbop, but come on now.

Throwing in the towel guarantees you nothing. Rather take that than guarantee of mediocrity any day of the week. The Rangers management should be doing everything they can to steer their way towards trying to get that pick. Yeah, the lottery is different. But at the end of the day the worst teams are still picking top 5. Toronto got Matthews. Buffalo got Dahlin. NJ moved from 5 to 1 and Colorado still got a top 5 pick. That is worth a lot more than being "competitive" and missing the playoffs. There is absolutely no way to deny that.

It's well established you don't have the appetite for a long rebuild. If that's the case you should be hoping for them to be as bad as possible this year, because that's the only way you're getting you're wish. Gorton flat out said this year that if they had gotten Dahlin then it would have accelerated things. Jump on that Hughes bandwagon sooner rather than later.

I applaud your efforts, you're a voice of reason here, and many including myself embrace what you're saying wholeheartedly.

Save your breath however trying to convince some on here though. .. they make no attempts to hide their opinions coming from a purely subjective viewpoint.

Very emotionally dishonest people on this BB

 

[NikC]

The problem with your analysis is that there are not Penguins, Blackhawks and Kings (who really don’t belong in this group) for every Islanders...there are Oilers, Panthers and Coyotes for every Penguins.

An enormous amount of luck is involved in the draft process. Look at the 2005 lottery. The Rangers had just as good a chance to get Crosby as the Penguins. The Penguins win the lottery and the Rangers end up with the 16th (and lowest possible) pick. They traded up to #12.

You are right, I don’t have a lot of stomach for a long rebuild. I’m older than most everyone here. I’m not expecting a good season this year but from this point, I’d like to see the team start to turn the corner and move quickly from there. I’m less concerned whether the Rangers draft 3rd or 6th next year than I am to see solid progress and development from the first wave of young players.

The best chance of aquiring talent is drafting high. The quickest way to turn things around is drafting very good to elite type players.

One of the only ways you're getting those players, is by drafting high consistently. . The handful of teams that have won SC and dominated the last few days 10-15 years have done this... the teams that failed using this method have OTHER ISSUES. ..

Has the Rangers scouting system shown they can mine jewels all over the draft?

Unfortunately, the likely scenario is the Rangers develop a "good" core and sign another big name FA, in the not too distant future. ..

 

[Trxjw]

Getting an elite talent on an ELC is a franchise altering event. Whether that's from the top-30 or the 3rd round really doesn't matter, but it's certainly more likely with the former. The real difference I see between the Rangers now and the usual examples -- Isles, Panthers, Oilers, etc -- is that they have a good foundation on the roster and in the pipeline. They're not completely devoid of talent. They're not incapable of finding talent beyond the first round. They aren't weighed down by middling players on bad contracts either.

I think it's going to be a tough year for a lot of fans, but there are a lot of exciting story lines.

 

[RangerBoy]

Skinner has a NMC. He gave Carolina a very small list of teams. Was it just the Sabres and Leafs? Elliotte Friedman mentioned the Sabres were interested in Skinner 3-4 months ago. The Leafs don't need him.

Waddell said Skinner, and agent Don Meehan, never turned down a proposed deal but had given the Canes a “very limited” list of teams Skinner would consider. Buffalo, Waddell said, was always high on the list for Skinner, a native of Markham, Ontario, in the Toronto area.

“The market was very slim as to places he could actually go, with the (salary) cap and everything else,” Waddell said.

Read more here: Carolina Hurricanes trade Jeff Skinner to Buffalo Sabres

$6,000,000 cap hit.

Similar to Eric Staal. It was the Rangers and one more team. Chicago?

You would think Buffalo will sign Skinner taking him off the rental market in February. They probably would have a tough time getting him to waive his NMC as a rental. Hope he signs. Max Pacioretty is the other guy who could move before the regular season. The situation between Montreal and Pacioretty is bad. You would think the team acquiring Pacioretty will sign him. Skinner and Pacioretty off the market at the trade takes two potential rentals off the market. Ron Hextall wants to re-sign Simmonds. He turns 30 this month. Good luck. Even if the Flyers don't re-sign Simmonds,would they trade him? They should be a playoff team.

You could make the argument about Zuccarello being the top rental winger on the rental market. Eberle? It depends what Columbus does with Panarin. Trade him before the season. Trade him at the deadline. Keep him and take a run this season. That's a good team. The Islanders need to re-sign Lee.

Zuccarello will have less than $1M left at the trade deadline. $967,741. The Rangers retain 1/2. Less than $500K. He turns 31 this September. Hopefully Zuccarello has a better season and the Rangers get a good return for him. No restriction clause so they can trade him anywhere unlike Skinner.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Getting an elite talent on an ELC is a franchise altering event. Whether that's from the top-30 or the 3rd round really doesn't matter, but it's certainly more likely with the former. The real difference I see between the Rangers now and the usual examples -- Isles, Panthers, Oilers, etc -- is that they have a good foundation on the roster and in the pipeline. They're not completely devoid of talent. They're not incapable of finding talent beyond the first round. They aren't weighed down by middling players on bad contracts either.

I think it's going to be a tough year for a lot of fans, but there are a lot of exciting story lines.

Another draft with 3 1sts including one in the top 5 and this team will be ready to take off.

 

[Kakko]

Going to stick to the same opinion as the end of last year. How good or bad the team does will depend on how good our young players perform. Some people seem to think that they can all suck at 20/21, and will suddenly be great when the time is right.
I'd rather our current prospect pool do well, than have them all suck, so we can draft Griffin Reinhardt to be our savior.

 

[BBKers]

Trades
M Staal for Lucic +
Spooner for Spezza +
Hayes for Faulk

Free agents
Sign free agents Brouwer and Shumakov plus the college guy from Boston that becomes a free agent August 15.

49 contracts. Lots of pieces to eventually trade (Zucc, Spezza, Names, Shatty...) and upgrade the organization with talented youth. We also add some picks/prospects by taking on Spezza and Lucic toxic waste. Some of the young guys will make it. Some might be dealt. We need to hit a grand slam somewhere.

K - Z - Buchnevich
Chytil - Spezza - Zucc
Lucic - Andersson - Shumakov
Vesey - Names - Fast
Brouwer, Bellesky/McLeod/...

Skjei - Faulk
Smith - Shattenkirk
Claesson - ADA/Pionk

Hank
Georgiev