Roster Building Thread: Part VII (2023-24)

[Machinehead]

Why not both? Find ways to get these guys more engaged and give them roles they can build off of while also giving some guys a rest here and there, Kakko is definitely more defensively sound I agree but I don’t think Laf would be negatively affected and it might even spur something in him, just shooting the breeze not trying to make a definitive statement either way

I don't know if it benefits him, but if they decided -for whatever reason- to put Laf on the PK, I don't think it's the worst thing.

HOT TAKE INCOMING: forwards don't do that much on the PK.

Legitimately good penalty killers at forward are rare. Here's a picture of one:

I am absolutely shocked and flabbergasted that it's Chris Kreider who's good at something, but I digress. Most of them just eat minutes and maybe score a shorthanded goal.

Now, you could argue Lafreniere isn't scaring anybody in open ice right now, but neither is Barclay Goodrow who never leaves the ice on the PK, so again, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

[bhamill]

Nobody really does that. It's very much the style now to spam PP1.

That doesn't mean we can't...

 

[Machinehead]

That doesn't mean we can't...

It's not to say we can't but there's a reason it's done that way.

Our objective is to win hockey games. Having Panarin, Fox, Zibanejad, and Kreider constantly on the ice is a good way to win hockey games.

 

[bhamill]

I filtered out players with fewer than 20 games. That's 25% of the season. To me that's a decent enough sample size. Lafrenière should be better at even strength to earn PP time.

This wouldn't be as big a debate if his play away from the puck was better. He's a very one-dimensional player unfortunately. His play away from the puck is simply not good enough. Yeah, he hits. Great. His Gva-Tka ratio is -0.2 which ranks 14th in his draft class out of 21 players with 20 GP or more.

To compare: Kaapo Kakko in his draft class ranks 4th with a +0.81 ratio.

I'm not trying to say Laf DESERVES more responsibility, I'm saying that if we want to develop him WE might want to give him and Kakko BOTH, more responsibility.

 

[bhamill]

It's not to say we can't but there's a reason it's done that way.

Our objective is to win hockey games. Having Panarin, Fox, Zibanejad, and Kreider constantly on the ice is a good way to win hockey games.

That is our objective, which is why we haven't taken the same tact with Kakko and Laf that bottomfeeder teams take with high picks. It's also the reason I haven't faulted the team too much for it. My point is we can't have our cake and eat it too. If we wanted these players to develop more quickly, then we SHOULD have given them more responsibility and lived with the growing pains. Since we weren't willing to do that it would behoove us to be a bit more patient.

 

[Machinehead]

That is our objective, which is why we haven't taken the same tact with Kakko and Laf that bottomfeeder teams take with high picks. It's also the reason I haven't faulted the team too much for it. My point is we can't have our cake and eat it too. If we wanted these players to develop more quickly, then we SHOULD have given them more responsibility and lived with the growing pains. Since we weren't willing to do that it would behoove us to be a bit more patient.

I mean, we have a spot.

Like I said, Trocheck is fine but he's not Jaromir Jagr.

I give that spot to Kakko way before I give it to Lafreniere.

As far as Panarin goes, yes, he should play entire powerplays. I can't believe that's a thing people complain about.

 

[savebyrichter94]

I don't know if it benefits him, but if they decided -for whatever reason- to put Laf on the PK, I don't think it's the worst thing.

HOT TAKE INCOMING: forwards don't do that much on the PK.

Legitimately good penalty killers at forward are rare. Here's a picture of one:

View attachment 739817

I am absolutely shocked and flabbergasted that it's Chris Kreider who's good at something, but I digress. Most of them just eat minutes and maybe score a shorthanded goal.

Now, you could argue Lafreniere isn't scaring anybody in open ice right now, but neither is Barclay Goodrow who never leaves the ice on the PK, so again, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world.

I’m not shocked about Kreider, there’s things he excels at and he’s even become undoubtedly elite at one of them, he’s not worthless, far from it and I personally, for the record, love the guy despite my critiques

Anyway, like you said I don’t think it would necessarily be the worst thing and if we’re trying to turn him into some kind of mini Kreider maybe putting him on the PK is something that can help that along and he takes to it like Chris did, pretty good guy to learn from and try to emulate in that regard

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Think he is talking about strictly PPs. And he is right, Panarin never gets off on the ice on them it feels like.

That's a coaching issue. The PP is always on for the full 2 minutes. That's not a Panarin issue.

 

[Machinehead]

I’m not shocked about Kreider, there’s things he excels at and he’s even become undoubtedly elite at one of them, he’s not worthless, far from it and I personally for the record love the guy despite my critiques

Anyway, like you said I don’t think it would necessarily be the worst thing and if we’re trying to turn him into some kind of mini Kreider maybe putting him on the PK is something that can help that along and he takes to it like Chris did, pretty good guy to learn from and try to emulate in that regard

I think it's fair to say Lafreniere is limited at this point. But like, so is Chris Kreider and he became an elite player by figuring out how to build around his strengths.

They have very different limitations, granted, but there's no reason Lafreniere couldn't work around them into a being a good player. He has a nose for the net, very good hands, low-key hits a lot, and has a decent IQ.

For a 1OA, I haven't seen jump-off-the-page skill, but there's a good power forward in there somewhere.

 

[Machinehead]

Speaking of power forwards, I really think a slower, more bump-n'-grind system would benefit a lot of guys.

Outside of Panarin, the entire lineup is filled with big hulks who lack speed but have hands in tight areas. We need to make it a systematic point to create tight areas all over the ice and make other teams play at our slower tempo.

Gallant was trying to play a Panarin counter-attack system where the only guy who can is Panarin.

 

[NYR Viper]

I mean, we have a spot.

Like I said, Trocheck is fine but he's not Jaromir Jagr.

I give that spot to Kakko way before I give it to Lafreniere.

As far as Panarin goes, yes, he should play entire powerplays. I can't believe that's a thing people complain about.

If I was trying to develop my young forwards, my special teams units are as follows:


PP's
Kreider
Zibanejad-Lafreniere-Panarin
Fox



Wheeler
Chytil-Trochek-Kaako
Gustafsson/Jones


PK's
Trochek-Kaako
Bonino-Vesey
Zibanejad-Kreider
Goodrow


One of the things I have seen from Lafreniere in terms of a developed skill is playing in and around the net. His ability at times to deflect pucks or find soft areas around the net is fairly good. I think playing that high slot role would be good for him. Also, it gets him more time on ice with skilled players which will help build his confidence. Also, I would truly expect Kaako to be an absolute unit on the PK.


5v5:
Kreider-Trochek-Kaako
Lafreniere-Zibanejad-Wheeler
Panarin-Chytil-Vesey
Pitlick-Bonino-Goodrow

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I'm not trying to say Laf DESERVES more responsibility, I'm saying that if we want to develop him WE might want to give him and Kakko BOTH, more responsibility.

What needs to improve is how this team utilises its PP units. It's not a Laffy problem. It's a coaching problem.

Giving your other PP unit decent minutes is how you fix this. Start the PP with the other unit if they're fresher when the penalty is drawn. It's not rocket science but Gallant is a very limited coach. This was a problem in Columbus, Sunrise and Vegas as well.

 

[SRHRangers]

That's a coaching issue. The PP is always on for the full 2 minutes. That's not a Panarin issue.

Is it?

I mean, it's been over the course of two different coaching regimes.

Same thing applies to Panarin and Kakko not playing together even though Kakko played well with Bread. Remember one game where he scored two greasy in front of the net goals.

Which kinda sides to the whole "country club" mentality.

QUOTE="Machinehead, post: 191439268, member: 115807"]
I mean, we have a spot.

Like I said, Trocheck is fine but he's not Jaromir Jagr.

I give that spot to Kakko way before I give it to Lafreniere.

As far as Panarin goes, yes, he should play entire powerplays. I can't believe that's a thing people complain about.
[/QUOTE]

Not when Panarin is gassed though. And that happened more often than not.

 

[savebyrichter94]

I think it's fair to say Lafreniere is limited at this point. But like, so is Chris Kreider and he became an elite player by figuring out how to build around his strengths.

They have very different limitations, granted, but there's no reason Lafreniere couldn't work around them into a being a good player. He has a nose for the net, very good hands, low-key hits a lot, and has a decent IQ.

For a 1OA, I haven't seen jump-off-the-page skill, but there's a good power forward in there somewhere.

I think there’s one in there somewhere too and I’d really like to see that imparted to him and have him really lean into it, I think that’s his wheelhouse as a pro and it’s achievable if he commits to it and has the right guidance married with opportunity

He can hit, he can deflect pucks, he isn’t afraid to be in front of the net, I’d like to see him playing a more straight forward up and down game where he’s in on the forecheck hard and when he has the puck in the offensive zone he takes it to the net and drives off the walls

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Is it?

I mean, it's been over the course of two different coaching regimes.

Same thing applies to Panarin and Kakko not playing together even though Kakko played well with Bread. Remember one game where he scored two greasy in front of the net goals.

Yes. Quinn has his own shortcomings.

How is it possible that Kakko's PP TOI had declined year over year since he entered the league?

Both Quinn and Gallant are coaching who rely on top guys WAY TOO MUCH. Quinn did this in college where it makes more sense. Gallant has been guilty for 2 decades.

Trusting your top guys is fine, but when a PP unit isn't clicking, forcing them 2 minutes at a time is not a solution.

I tracked the PP metrics post-deadline last season.

Construction A, or as I like to call it the "All Star Unit" with 93-10-20-88-23 with PP2 of 72-16-91-79-8 getting mere seconds every time.

Construction B with the more balanced units of 93-20-91-72-23 & 10-88-16-79-8 where the PP was very evenly distributed.


Construction A: 4-for-30 (13%)
Construction B: 10-for-27 (37%)

With Kane and Tarasenko gone, those roles have to be filled 1-for-1 by Kakko and Lafrenière. And play the fresher unit, instead of having a dedicated top unit. Go with what worked.

And if any of the veterans have a problem with it, they can either shut up, or waive their NMC and they can f*** off.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Bold prediction: One of Cuylle or Othmann ends up as Panarin's RW.
They both have the right mentality and more edge than we've really had on panarin's line outside of Trocheck, and never on the right side.
I think Othmann fits the bill better, but Cuylle is probably a little more pro ready after the full year + in HFD.

Cant see it this year, both guys likely end up in the minors, Cullye has more of a chance of making it but the organization signed a few vets for this reason. Imo and its just my opinion but i think Drury is going to take a slower approach from now on with prospects. Lafreniere and Kakko are going to be put in the top 6 to start atleast and imo they'll get a bit of a run to sink or swim.

 

[TGWL]

Just to piggyback a bit, maybe getting him on the PK is something we should explore just as a means to get him into another situation he can try and build confidence from, maybe something clicks for him with the added responsibility, would also help us get guys like Kreider and Mika an extra bit of rest here and there which is something I wish we could find a way to do with Fox as well

He's not ready for that. He doesn't move his feet enough. For all the "Put him in a position to succeed talk", this is putting him in a situation to have less confidence when the other team scores. If he can bump his defensive play up and keep moving his feet, sure, go take that step, but he's not there yet.

 

[SRHRangers]

Yes. Quinn has his own shortcomings.

How is it possible that Kakko's PP TOI had declined year over year since he entered the league?

Both Quinn and Gallant are coaching who rely on top guys WAY TOO MUCH. Quinn did this in college where it makes more sense. Gallant has been guilty for 2 decades.

Trusting your top guys is fine, but when a PP unit isn't clicking, forcing them 2 minutes at a time is not a solution.

I tracked the PP metrics post-deadline last season.

Construction A, or as I like to call it the "All Star Unit" with 93-10-20-88-23 with PP2 of 72-16-91-79-8 getting mere seconds every time.

Construction B with the more balanced units of 93-20-91-72-23 & 10-88-16-79-8 where the PP was very evenly distributed.


Construction A: 4-for-30 (13%)
Construction B: 10-for-27 (37%)

With Kane and Tarasenko gone, those roles have to be filled 1-for-1 by Kakko and Lafrenière. And play the fresher unit, instead of having a dedicated top unit. Go with what worked.

And if any of the veterans have a problem with it, they can either shut up, or waive their NMC and they can f*** off.

That's the point. With the naked eye, I'll admit I haven't looked at any analytical data, anytime Panarin played with Kakko, it was short lived no matter the results.

And Panarin is always on PP1 and Kakko , like you said, has had his PP time shrunk over his career.

Panarin avoids playing with Kakko like he had the plague, and yes, that is why some of the people on here want Panarin to waive his NMC, and f*** off. Lol

 

[savebyrichter94]

He's not ready for that. He doesn't move his feet enough. For all the "Put him in a position to succeed talk", this is putting him in a situation to have less confidence when the other team scores. If he can bump his defensive play up and keep moving his feet, sure, go take that step, but he's not there yet.

I was just thinking of it as a means to force him to keep his feet moving and hoping that would translate over to the rest of his game and hopefully spark a little something if he ends up being good at it

 

[bhamill]

I mean, we have a spot.

Like I said, Trocheck is fine but he's not Jaromir Jagr.

I give that spot to Kakko way before I give it to Lafreniere.

As far as Panarin goes, yes, he should play entire powerplays. I can't believe that's a thing people complain about.

As long as Pan doesn't gas. I'd love if Fox could do that and we swap out the other forwards. I'm not so sure either are up to it. If they are though, fine.

What needs to improve is how this team utilises its PP units. It's not a Laffy problem. It's a coaching problem.

Giving your other PP unit decent minutes is how you fix this. Start the PP with the other unit if they're fresher when the penalty is drawn. It's not rocket science but Gallant is a very limited coach. This was a problem in Columbus, Sunrise and Vegas as well.

Agreed.

 

[Kakko]

I hate to put everything on training, but the PP "issues" really felt driven by coaching, or a lack thereof.
The 1st unit was two high end skill players creating space, two guys with a specific (coached) shot/tip dual threat, and a fifth guy to fill out space. And the talent mostly made it work, but felt anemic when it wasn't.
The 2nd unit couldn't complete a zone entry half the time, and when they did Trouba sat at center ice. I don't think the players lack the skill to enter the zone 5 on 4. They just looked like they didn't have a plan.

 

[UnSandvich]

low-key Gustaffson/Jones over Trouba on PP2 might actually be the biggest improvement we make there

 

[The Crypto Guy]

low-key Gustaffson/Jones over Trouba on PP2 might actually be the biggest improvement we make there

Truthfully, it doesn't really matter who is on the second PP unit if the first unit stays out for 90 seconds. Second unit are lucky to get one face off deep in the offensive zone. Normally they get 20-30 seconds starting from their zone on the fly while some of the players are changing and some aren't. Tough to get in their and set up quickly for any real scoring chances.

 

[Fitzy]

low-key Gustaffson/Jones over Trouba on PP2 might actually be the biggest improvement we make there

Well it's a big assumption to say they'll automatically get the nod over Trouba unfortunately.

Truthfully, it doesn't really matter who is on the second PP unit if the first unit stays out for 90 seconds. Second unit are lucky to get one face off deep in the offensive zone. Normally they get 20-30 seconds starting from their zone while some of the players are changing and some aren't. Tough to get in their and set up quickly for any real scoring chances.

If I was a coach at any significant level, I'd treat the second unit's half minute as a volume shooting spree. Get the puck to the point and get pucks towards the net as many times as you can while you still have an advantage.

I'd rather see a number of low chance opportunities over a leftover group of guys without much chemistry or experience playing together try to pass the puck into the net.

 

[NYR Viper]

Well it's a big assumption to say they'll automatically get the nod over Trouba unfortunately.



If I was a coach at any significant level, I'd treat the second unit's half minute as a volume shooting spree. Get the puck to the point and get pucks towards the net as many times as you can while you still have an advantage.

I'd rather see a number of low chance opportunities over a leftover group of guys without much chemistry or experience playing together try to pass the puck into the net.

I wouldn't hate Trouba on the PP, he just can't be at the top of their current set up.