Roster Building Thread: Part VII (2023-24)

[NYR Viper]

What's funny is Lafreniere's stats @ 5v5 are actually pretty good, especially considering many players gain confidence from scoring on the PP, which rolls over to their 5v5 numbers

 

[Savant]

Would you move Chytil to add another dman?

Chytil just signed a deal. He’s got 4yrs at around 4.5m left on it. So unless we are finding a Dman signed for longer at less/similar cap hit, it’s going to be hard to find a deal that makes sense

 

[Flan the incredible]

Would you move Chytil to add another dman?


Even if they find a taker for Goodrow, most likely Rangers would need to pay and or retain some of the cap hit. Morrissey cap hit is 6,.25 per year until 27-28 season. It’s not like the Rangers have someone like Bryce McConnell Barker ready to replace Chytil. They will just overpay another 3rd liner to replace Chytil or play someone not ready for 3rd liner like Brodzinksi or someone like Bonino

That depends on what they get for Lindgren. I am not in love with Chytil as many on this board are. I dont think he is a good enough playmaker, he isn't good on face-offs and I feel he fell of a cliff production wise at the end of last year. He may better suited to play with a playmaker like Panarin but that would move Trocheck to RW where he can take faceoffs or 3C. If Tro is on RW who plays 3C?

Now I hope Chytil continues his progress next year and he breaks out and scores 30 which woulf be great but he can also regress. Its a big year for him, Laf and Kappo.

To answer the question as best as I can without knowing all the facts. I would move Chytil to get a top Dman if it didn't cause a gigantic hole in the roster. Maybe Lindgren returns another good young center with potential and it makes it easier to swallow.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

13 goals, 22 assists at EV last year. I'm not sure what you are saying.

Time on ice matters though. 5v5 P/60 is a much better indicator than just raw numbers.

Remove Dryden Hunt (sample size) and Lafrenière ranks 12th on the team in 5v5 P/60

In his draft class he ranked 10th in 5v5 P/60. That's not good enough for a 1st overall pick. Not by a long shot.

 

[bhamill]

Who said it was "good enough" for a 1OA? Pretty sure I didn't.
That being said... context matters. There are also some small sample sizes there 3 guys with 24 or under games where a short streak can have a large impact. Then there is the matter of line mates, confidence derived from power play responsibility, etc, etc. But none of that was what I was addressing.
Machinehead mentioned how Laf had more EV time than Kris, as an indictment of sorts, and I remarked that he also scored more than Kris in that time. Pretty simple.

 

[SRHRangers]

Just to piggyback a bit, maybe getting him on the PK is something we should explore just as a means to get him into another situation he can try and build confidence from, maybe something clicks for him with the added responsibility, would also help us get guys like Kreider and Mika an extra bit of rest here and there which is something I wish we could find a way to do with Fox as well

I rather Kakko get the PK time. He is more defensive sound and Kakko needs that extra time just as much as LaF.

 

[Machinehead]

Honestly I'm not necessarily talking about PP1, but there's no reason PP1 and PP2 cant be more balanced in both personell and more importantly TIME. Want to see what they can do on the PP? Give them PP shifts closer to a minute. Split the time more evenly between two units. As someone said above: start whichever unit is fresher. The bonus is if one goes cold at an inopportune time, such as the playoffs, hopefully the other can pick up the slack.

Nobody really does that. It's very much the style now to spam PP1.

 

[Machinehead]

Mark Pysyk is a decent add for them.

 

[Machinehead]

Time on ice matters though. 5v5 P/60 is a much better indicator than just raw numbers.

Remove Dryden Hunt (sample size) and Lafrenière ranks 12th on the team in 5v5 P/60


View attachment 739788


In his draft class he ranked 10th in 5v5 P/60. That's not good enough for a 1st overall pick. Not by a long shot.

View attachment 739790

This conversation comes up because there's a perception that Lafreniere plays very little. It's actually the opposite. He plays a lot more than players who produce at his rate generally do.

That's why he has decent-looking raw numbers and a poor p/60.

Look at the TOI/GP on the second list. He plays more than everyone ahead of him but Stutzle.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Who said it was "good enough" for a 1OA? Pretty sure I didn't.
That being said... context matters. There are also some small sample sizes there 3 guys with 24 or under games where a short streak can have a large impact. Then there is the matter of line mates, confidence derived from power play responsibility, etc, etc. But none of that was what I was addressing.
Machinehead mentioned how Laf had more EV time than Kris, as an indictment of sorts, and I remarked that he also scored more than Kris in that time. Pretty simple.

I filtered out players with fewer than 20 games. That's 25% of the season. To me that's a decent enough sample size. Lafrenière should be better at even strength to earn PP time.

This wouldn't be as big a debate if his play away from the puck was better. He's a very one-dimensional player unfortunately. His play away from the puck is simply not good enough. Yeah, he hits. Great. His Gva-Tka ratio is -0.2 which ranks 14th in his draft class out of 21 players with 20 GP or more.

To compare: Kaapo Kakko in his draft class ranks 4th with a +0.81 ratio.

 

[SRHRangers]

The problem isn't LaF getting PP1 time.

The problem is Panarin won't get off the effin ice for 2 straight mins when he's clearly gassed.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

This conversation comes up because there's a perception that Lafreniere plays very little. It's actually the opposite. He plays a lot more than players who produce at his rate generally do.

That's why he has decent-looking raw numbers and a poor p/60.

Yeah. His ice time is fine. What he does with that ice time, that's the issue.

 

[Fitzy]

A player's draft position becomes mostly irrelevant from the moment they're selected, except for a lingering notion of 'potential' where the scouts are concerned.

If NYR had drafted Adam Fox first overall, K'Andre Miller 2nd overall, and had gotten Kakko and Laf through other means, would people be complaining that heavily? Same with the Nash and McDonagh trades being flipped. We've got some rebuild pieces that wildly overperformed, and others that have underperformed. The key is whether the net balance is positive or negative.

The important thing is now that Laf is a young middle 6 winger, cost controlled, with some possible serious latent potential stemming from his draft position.

 

[SRHRangers]

This conversation comes up because there's a perception that Lafreniere plays very little. It's actually the opposite. He plays a lot more than players who produce at his rate generally do.

That's why he has decent-looking raw numbers and a poor p/60.

Look at the TOI/GP on the second list. He plays more than everyone ahead of him but Stutzle.

The LaF issue has a lot to do with how Kakko got screwed around with. The fan base sees it and think it's a trend.

The Kakko and Lafraniere situations are pretty different.

I wish Kakko gave Gallant a left hook after the Game 6 scratch.

 

[Machinehead]

A player's draft position becomes mostly irrelevant from the moment they're selected, except for a lingering notion of 'potential' where the scouts are concerned.

If NYR had drafted Adam Fox first overall, K'Andre Miller 2nd overall, and had gotten Kakko and Laf through other means, would people be complaining that heavily? Same with the Nash and McDonagh trades being flipped. We've got some rebuild pieces that wildly overperformed, and others that have underperformed. The key is whether the net balance is positive or negative.

The important thing is now that Laf is a young middle 6 winger, cost controlled, with some possible serious latent potential stemming from his draft position.

I can get on board with this when it comes to most picks.

People will always bellyache about Andersson and Kravtsov, but we got Chytil and Miller anyway who end up going top 10 and probably 4th in a re-draft, respectively.

When we're talking about 1st and 2nd overall picks, they were picked there for a reason, and you expect to see that ability shine through.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The problem isn't LaF getting PP1 time.

The problem is Panarin won't get off the effin ice for 2 straight mins when he's clearly gassed.

Panarin's average shift-time is the same as Trocheck, Kreider and Zibanejad (give or take a second)

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Panarin's average shift-time is the same as Trocheck, Kreider and Zibanejad (give or take a second)

View attachment 739807

Think he is talking about strictly PPs. And he is right, Panarin never gets off on the ice on them it feels like.

 

[Machinehead]

The LaF issue has a lot to do with how Kakko got screwed around with. The fan base sees it and think it's a trend.

The Kakko and Lafraniere situations are pretty different.

I wish Kakko gave Gallant a left hook after the Game 6 scratch.

I agree that the situations are very different.

If you want to say Kakko 1) got jerked around and 2) clearly shows a lot of talent, you'll hear no arguments from me on either point.

Kakko was good on PP1 his rookie year and got taken off of it. Quinn asked him to be good at defense, he got great at defense, and got benched anyway. Last year he was on by far the most effective line we put together all year (Kreider-Zibanejad-Kakko) and we put the kibosh on that for no reason.

On other hand, Lafreniere has just not impressed me at all despite his fair share of opportunities.

I posted the TOI earlier. Kakko was 5th and Lafreniere was 6th. Ok, but Kakko is clearly our best RW and should arguably be higher than 5th because of the way the lineup shakes out. Lafreniere is by far our 3rd best LW so when he's top 6 in minutes, that shows me you're going out of your way to give him extra shifts.

 

[SRHRangers]

That's

Panarin's average shift-time is the same as Trocheck, Kreider and Zibanejad (give or take a second)

View attachment 739807

That's overall shift time?

I'm referring to how Bread will spend the entire 2 mins on the PP and gassed at the end.

 

[Machinehead]

Think he is talking about strictly PPs. And he is right, Panarin never gets off on the ice on them it feels like.

He shouldn't. He just had 92 points and everyone is ready to kill him.

Meanwhile, Lafreniere had 39 and everyone is his lawyer. That right there tells you the calibers of player we're dealing with.

 

[SRHRangers]

I agree that the situations are very different.

If you want to say Kakko 1) got jerked around and 2) clearly shows a lot of talent, you'll hear no arguments from me on either point.

Kakko was good on PP1 his rookie year and got taken off of it. Quinn asked him to be good at defense, he got great at defense, and got benched anyway. Last year he was on by far the most effective line we put together all year (Kreider-Zibanejad-Kakko) and we put the kibosh on that for no reason.

On other hand, Lafreniere has just not impressed me at all despite his fair share of opportunities.

I posted the TOI earlier. Kakko was 5th and Lafreniere was 6th. Ok, but Kakko is clearly our best RW and should arguably be higher than 5th because of the way the lineup shakes out. Lafreniere is by far our 3rd best LW so when he's top 6 in minutes, that shows me you're going out of your way to give him extra shifts.

Not really referring the ice time with Kakko. More of being jerked around. He should've been on PP1 instead of Stroke from day 1.

Also, Panarin looking like he doesn't want to play with Kakko, even though in the small samples I saw, Kakko was aggressive playing with Panarin and Strome.

Which makes me think that might be the reason why Kakko isn't on PP1.

It's definitely more to the Kakko situation than LaF.

 

[NYR Viper]

Time on ice matters though. 5v5 P/60 is a much better indicator than just raw numbers.

Remove Dryden Hunt (sample size) and Lafrenière ranks 12th on the team in 5v5 P/60


View attachment 739788


In his draft class he ranked 10th in 5v5 P/60. That's not good enough for a 1st overall pick. Not by a long shot.

View attachment 739790

Not to add caveats here but Greig has played 20 games. Reichel played 23. Evangelista played 24. Too small of sample sizes.

So he's 7th.

I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't need to improve, he does. But he hasn't been 'bad'

 

[Machinehead]

Not really referring the ice time with Kakko. More of being jerked around. He should've been on PP1 instead of Stroke from day 1.

Also, Panarin looking like he doesn't want to play with Kakko, even though in the small samples I saw, Kakko was aggressive playing with Panarin and Strome.

Which makes me think that might be the reason why Kakko isn't on PP1.

It's definitely more to the Kakko situation than LaF.

Yeah, Strome on the PP is the one that doesn't make sense to me.

If you want to make the argument now, Trocheck is far from being Jaromir Jagr, but at least he's objectively a positive on the powerplay. I can get that.

Strome sucks ASSSSSSSS on the powerplay. He's literally more dangerous at even strength.

I don't want to speculate on what goes on in the room, but if Panarin has as much pull with linemates as has often been implied, Laviolette needs to cut that shit out.

I'll defend Panarin as a player but he's not the coach. Sit down and shut up.

 

[savebyrichter94]

I rather Kakko get the PK time. He is more defensive sound and Kakko needs that extra time just as much as LaF.

Why not both? Find ways to get these guys more engaged and give them roles they can build off of while also giving some guys a rest here and there, Kakko is definitely more defensively sound I agree but I don’t think Laf would be negatively affected and it might even spur something in him, just shooting the breeze not trying to make a definitive statement either way

 

[Machinehead]

I understand the argument against Panarin and Kakko together because they both like to carry, but I think Kakko has the size to play more of a retriever role and the hockey IQ to figure it out.

That's one direction you could go in. Also, as Panarin gets older, and loses a bit of speed, maybe he should carry it less and just focus on getting to a dangerous area first.

They're professionals. They are multiple ways they can figure it out if that's the way the lineup lands.