Roster Building Thread: Part VII (2023-24)

[duhmetreE]

Panarin is never going to return to what he was in year 1 or what he was before he signed here. People need to let that dream go and stop blaming coaching for his decline.

He'll likely continue to decline in production because thats what aging players do. At this point I give very few f***s what he does in the regular season as there isn't really room for improvement there that is going to move the needle in any significant way. It's the post season where he has a massive room for positive growth as it really can't get any worse than he's been. I'd rather he be a sub PPG in the RS and win the Conn Smythe than see a Hart worthy season only to watch him flame out in the playoffs again.

31 years old.... he's a step below a leper

Every forward sucked at 5v5. Even more so in the Playoffs. Panarin did suck. He's a guy that needs to move his feet and also have his teammates move their feet to open space/lanes. If you do not think that was a systemic issue and only a Panarin issue, you're seeing what you want to see.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

31 years old.... he's a step below a leper

Every forward sucked at 5v5. Even more so in the Playoffs. Panarin did suck. He's a guy that needs to move his feet and also have his teammates move their feet to open space/lanes. If you do not think that was a systemic issue and only a Panarin issue, you're seeing what you want to see.

He's been worse than everyone even with those constraints, including his line mates.

That isn't systemic. Thats him.

 

[will1066]

Panarin is never going to return to what he was in year 1 or what he was before he signed here. People need to let that dream go and stop blaming coaching for his decline.

He'll likely continue to decline in production because thats what aging players do. At this point I give very few f***s what he does in the regular season as there isn't really room for improvement there that is going to move the needle in any significant way. It's the post season where he has a massive room for positive growth as it really can't get any worse than he's been. I'd rather he be a sub PPG in the RS and win the Conn Smythe than see a Hart worthy season only to watch him flame out in the playoffs again.

Events around the horn in the last playoffs proved the regular season means little.

 

[Machinehead]

Panarin is never going to return to what he was in year 1 or what he was before he signed here. People need to let that dream go and stop blaming coaching for his decline.

He'll likely continue to decline in production because thats what aging players do. At this point I give very few f***s what he does in the regular season as there isn't really room for improvement there that is going to move the needle in any significant way. It's the post season where he has a massive room for positive growth as it really can't get any worse than he's been. I'd rather he be a sub PPG in the RS and win the Conn Smythe than see a Hart worthy season only to watch him flame out in the playoffs again.

I don't need him to be what he was year one. If he's just 85-90% of what he is in the regular season (hey, scoring in the playoffs is hard!) that should be enough to go on a legitimate run if the rest of the team doesn't have their heads up their asses.

 

[17futurecap]

I’ll take my chances with Panarin going for 90, and hoping he rebounds in the playoffs over giving Chris Drury 11 million dollars to acquire gritty forwards.

 

[NYR Viper]

Like most everything we discuss here, trading Panarin has so many variables in it. If Drury could turn Panarin into a useful middle-6 power forward, 1st and a smaller cap dump, say $2.5m 4th liner who is useful and unique, while also having a plan to use that additional cap space on the right player I could get behind it.

 

[bhamill]

Yup, comparing his contract to other stars who never hit free agency is dishonest; on top of that Panarin was the headliner of the last free agent class before covid lockdowns/flat cap. The cap was expected to go up before that. He's also the all time leader in P/GP as a Ranger so there's that.

He’s also been invisible in the playoffs so it’s fair to say he’s not living up to that contract. It’s not his fault that NYR decided to pay him what they did, that we thought he’d be worth it, but that doesn’t change that he has not been a 11.6m player for years. Especially in the post season.

The guy said he shaved his head because he was ashamed of his playoffs and there was evil spirits on his hair. Never heard a player say something like that, I’m a believer. I think firing guns in the air and getting arrested is just the beginning, he’s going to get revenge on Wilson this year. He’s going to be unhinged. 150pt szn & conn smythe coming

I hope you are right. Hahaha.

 

[Machinehead]

Like most everything we discuss here, trading Panarin has so many variables in it. If Drury could turn Panarin into a useful middle-6 power forward, 1st and a smaller cap dump, say $2.5m 4th liner who is useful and unique, while also having a plan to use that additional cap space on the right player I could get behind it.

Right, like, I'm not saying it couldn't work out.

Trading Gaborik for some parts worked out. That being said, Brassard's progress was completely unforeseen and Gaborik ended up being critical in somebody else's Cup run anyway, so...

I'm just saying it's a huge risk and the most likely outcome is that the combination coming back comes nowhere near replicating the production in any way you want to measure it.

Hell, anything can work out. We can trade Adam Fox for a 6th rounder and that 6th round pick puts up 3,000 points. You still have to weigh the risk and not trade a guy based on emotion because you're mad at his performance.

 

[bhamill]

Alright, again, we need to look at this with some context...


21-22
16 points in 20 games in the playoffs. He was playing with an injured Copp and injured Strome. I'm not excusing the eye test here, but points-wise, he wasn't horrendous. The way some people talk about this post-season, I would have assumed he ha 5 points in 20 games...

22-23
2 points in 7 games. The team looked good in games 1-3 and then horrendous beyond that. There was no structure and it was evident the entire team was out of sorts. No excuse again, but this was a systemic, team-wide failure.



Before we burn the guy at the stake, lets see him with a real coach with real structure

Yeah. I actually like Panarin. Im not in the “he sucks” or “he needs to go” camps, I’m in the “ he needs to be BETTER” camp, especially as pertains to the post season. If this is another year where he’s invisible in the playoffs, especially with the coaching change, I may move to one of the former camps.

 

[eco's bones]

There was a period last year for about 6 weeks that Artemi stopped shooting the puck and just tried to make plays and that's an issue where Gallant should have taken him aside and if he didn't want to listen bench him a game or two. I have no issue with a coach asserting control if his star players aren't doing what they should. Hopefully Laviolette will be less bullshit than Gallant was in his second year.

On the subject of trading Artemi I never really have thought it realizable until after this 23-24 season when he's down to two years remaining. it's just too colossal of a contract. Even then I don't think it will necessarily be an easy deal to make with a limited amount of teams who might want him that could afford him--that with his trade restrictions will take him and where he'd be okay to go and still get a somewhat decent return. The closer he does get to contract termination the easier it will be. At present though even if he makes it all the way with us I'm not sure I'd sign him again and certainly not for anywhere near what he's getting now.

 

[jacko23]

There were plenty of teams be

Last year, the league had:

36 players at or over a ppg with a minimum of 65 games played.
The Rangers had 2, Zibanejad and Panarin.


The league had 16 players at or over 60 assists
The Rangers had 2, Fox and Panarin.


This idea that just ridding the team of Panarin would somehow make them 'better' is horseshit. Straight up horseshit.

How many teams were better than us last season and how many players were on their rosters that met this criteria?

This isnt basketball. Its about how well the TEAM plays. Last time we made it to the SCF, our leading scorer had what, 65pts?

 

[NYR Viper]

Yeah. I actually like Panarin. Im not in the “he sucks” or “he needs to go” camps, I’m in the “ he needs to be BETTER” camp, especially as pertains to the post season. If this is another year where he’s invisible in the playoffs, especially with the coaching change, I may move to one of the former camps.

I'm willing to give him this year to see how things go. If things don't go well overall for the team, I am in the camp that things may need to be changed. Panarin. Trouba. There may be others here too...

There were plenty of teams be

How many teams were better than us last season and how many players were on their rosters that met this criteria?

This isnt basketball. Its about how well the TEAM plays. Last time we made it to the SCF, our leading scorer had what, 65pts?

Sure, I get the overarching point here, but the team still needs to score in order to win. If the team is scoring and yet is deficient in other areas, perhaps fix those areas and not blow up the area that is successful?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Who replaces Jim Ramsay? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sean Murdoch is currently the ad-interim until they hire a replacement.

 

[kovazub94]

Last year, the league had:

36 players at or over a ppg with a minimum of 65 games played.
The Rangers had 2, Zibanejad and Panarin.


The league had 16 players at or over 60 assists
The Rangers had 2, Fox and Panarin.


This idea that just ridding the team of Panarin would somehow make them 'better' is horseshit. Straight up horseshit.

Context please. Why are you not replacing his $11.6m with at least partial equivalent. How much would $8m-$9m in freed up cap space would contribute?

Secondly, once again you’re missing a point - show me comparable to Panarin’s playoff performance in the last two seasons. I bet a replacement equivalent there would be in $4m-$5m at most. For $11.6m price tag that’s the issue.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Panarin needs someone to work a give and go with him, currently the only center capable of that is Zibanejad, the others just aren't that type of player. He can't be holding on to the puck all the time, he is best when he is sneaking into open areas without the puck. It's why Strome worked with him, they passed around players instead of trying to go by them with the puck. Imo you put Panarin and Zib together, Laf and Chytil and Kreider and Trochek, those pairs work together, add Kakko to line 1, Wheeler to line 2 and maybe Vesey to 3. All 3 lines work that way no matter what way you number them.

 

[surlysailor]

No. There's no compensation from the team that signs him. Philly gets a 2nd in 2024 because they didn't sign him. It's just an extra pick awarded by the NHL.

Am I wrong but didn't it use to be that a team had to make an effort to sign the player? Like there had to be proof that the player didn't want to sign or was unable to sign with the team? IIRC when Chep passed away Sather had to make lobby for the NYR to get that 2nd round pick from not being able to sign him. I feel like it's a bit ridiculous that a team can not offer a contract to their pick or have an intention to sign that player and be rewarded with a 2nd round pick.

 

[NYR Viper]

Context please. Why are you not replacing his $11.6m with at least partial equivalent. How much would $8m-$9m in freed up cap space would contribute?

Secondly, once again you’re missing a point - show me comparable to Panarin’s playoff performance in the last two seasons. I bet a replacement equivalent there would be in $4m-$5m at most. For $11.6m price tag that’s the issue.

That's the thing, you aren't going to free up $8-9m in cap space.

Just look at the Gaborik trade. Or the Eichel trade. Or the Tkachuk trade. You're going to be getting contracts back, likely at least one of which we won't be enamored with.

 

[GAGLine]

Am I wrong but didn't it use to be that a team had to make an effort to sign the player? Like there had to be proof that the player didn't want to sign or was unable to sign with the team? IIRC when Chep passed away Sather had to make lobby for the NYR to get that 2nd round pick from not being able to sign him. I feel like it's a bit ridiculous that a team can not offer a contract to their pick or have an intention to sign that player and be rewarded with a 2nd round pick.

Yeah, I remember that being the idea back when we got compensation for Cherepanov, but I guess it's regardless of the reason.

 

[Machinehead]

Nobody can take anywhere near $11.6m nor is there any good reason they should want to. Maybe Arizona just for the shits but Panarin has a NMC and won't go to Arizona.

There would almost certainly be retention and a contract coming back. We would be extremely lucky just to clear half of it.

 

[Fitzy]

The cap is set to go nowhere but up the next half decade, so I really don't think we need to move any salary. I'm already starting to lean against re-signing Shesterkin which goes even further.

If we do, I move Trouba over Panarin. We'd probably even get a better return.

 

[duhmetreE]

He's been worse than everyone even with those constraints, including his line mates.

That isn't systemic. Thats him.

I don’t see how. He’s different player.

No forwards showed anything worth a thing at even strength. Panarin was reckless in attempting to do something.

The entire group was set up for failure. Igor and the PP was 99.9% the reason for any types of success.

 

[NYR Viper]

The cap is set to go nowhere but up the next half decade, so I really don't think we need to move any salary. I'm already starting to lean against re-signing Shesterkin which goes even further.

If we do, I move Trouba over Panarin. We'd probably even get a better return.

If Schneider takes a step this season, I'm more inclined to go this route than moving Panarin.

 

[zlev]

there's nothing Panarin can do when his defensemen are pinned in their own zone because they're too slow to move the puck up the ice. people will argue "but his analytics are worse than everyone elses" but i would argue back that's probably because he kept going 1-on-4 trying to create offense because he literally had no other option. everyone else was just dumping the puck in so they could get turnstyled in the neutral zone when NJ moved the puck back up the ice.

 

[SA16]

Context please. Why are you not replacing his $11.6m with at least partial equivalent. How much would $8m-$9m in freed up cap space would contribute?

Secondly, once again you’re missing a point - show me comparable to Panarin’s playoff performance in the last two seasons. I bet a replacement equivalent there would be in $4m-$5m at most. For $11.6m price tag that’s the issue.

Sure, here's a list of good players with 100+ 5v5 playoff minutes and an equal or worse 5v5 pts/60 than Panarin the last two seasons:

1. Brayden Point
2. Brayden Schenn
3. Sam Reinhart
4. Matt Boldy
5. Martin Necas
6. Andrei Svechnikov
7. Tyler Toffoli

And here's a list if you only look at primary points/60:

1. Jason Robertson
2. Matt Boldy
3. Sam Reinhart
4. Nico Hischier
5. Robert Thomas
6. William Nylander
7. Andrei Svechnikov
8. Jesper Bratt
9. Brayden Schenn
10. Martin Necas
11. Anze Kopitar
12. Tyler Toffoli
13. Brayden Point

Seems like it's pretty easy to have poor production in multiple small time frames.

 

[TGWL]

Getting rid of Panarin frees up money with no available stars to sign. (which is probably a blessing for us)
This gives us plenty of cap to sign more middle 6 players and then complain that our prospects/young players are pushed down, or have no spots available. I don't see a scenario where we trade Panarin, and then chuck our prospects/young players away for a better 1-2 punching line combo.

Who are we getting to replace Panarin's point totals? You still have to make the playoffs. You can argue that something has to change next offseason if this isn't working, but trading Panarin right now doesn't help us.