Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part LIV

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Agreed. I also don't get the infatuation with Dvorak.

So I'm genuinely confused:
a) Howden gets crapped on and people think he will be nothing more than a 4th liner
b) people think Lemieux is a glorified 4th liner
2) the 22nd overall pick

For a 2C who is signed long term at a very reasonable cap number and is 24 years old?

He's defensively responsible and growing offensively. Even if he plateaus and is a 40ish point center that's valuable with Chytil as his 2a alternative.
 
So I'm genuinely confused:
a) Howden gets crapped on and people think he will be nothing more than a 4th liner
b) people think Lemieux is a glorified 4th liner
2) the 22nd overall pick

For a 2C who is signed long term at a very reasonable cap number and is 24 years old?

He's defensively responsible and growing offensively. Even if he plateaus and is a 40ish point center that's valuable with Chytil as his 2a alternative.


I understand the thinking behind the deal. I'm just not sold on Dvorak.

To your points:

1) I think Howden still has a place on this team (granted I'm not one of the people who craps on him)
2) I think Lemieux still has upside and can be a goo/very good third liner'
3) If the 22nd pick is in play, I would rather use it to move up in the draft

Whatsmore, if Dvorak is the player is you describe, why would AZ want to make this trade?
 
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I understand the thinking behind the deal. I'm just not sold on Dvorak.

To your points:

1) I think Howden still has a place on this team (granted I'm not one of the people who craps on him)
2) I think Lemieux still has upside and can be a goo/very good third liner'
3) If the 22nd pick is in play, I would rather use it to move up in the draft

Whatsmore, if Dvorak is the player is you describe, why would AZ want to make this trade?

So I probably fall in with your line of thinking. I think Howden and Lemieux become a nice 3rd line duo moving forward that is difficult to play against. In saying that, with the depth the team has elsewhere I'd be okay moving some depth pieces to get the RIGHT guy.

I believe they will be cutting cap and they want to get back some pieces that they can begin to build around moving forward. They have practically no depth in the system and no picks for a while. It may not be Dvorak but I could see them selling off, or trying to sell off some pieces.
 
So I probably fall in with your line of thinking. I think Howden and Lemieux become a nice 3rd line duo moving forward that is difficult to play against. In saying that, with the depth the team has elsewhere I'd be okay moving some depth pieces to get the RIGHT guy.

I believe they will be cutting cap and they want to get back some pieces that they can begin to build around moving forward. They have practically no depth in the system and no picks for a while. It may not be Dvorak but I could see them selling off, or trying to sell off some pieces.

I'm not sure Howden's future is as a center. And I agree about moving some depth to augment other areas of need.
 
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You mentioned you liked Smith's toughness, would you consider Ryan Reaves if he were to cost very little?
As much as I hate giving UFA dollars to bottom six guys, I would have to strongly consider Reaves because I think he's a unique player in that he brings toughness, can drop the gloves and still take a regulation shift.

I don't know how cheap he would be. And I also can't seem to figure out if Vegas extended him or not.
 
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As much as I hate giving UFA dollars to bottom six guys, I would have to strongly consider Reaves because I think he's a unique player in that he brings toughness, can drop the gloves and still take a regulation shift.

I don't know how cheap he would be. And I also can't seem to figure out if Vegas extended him or not.

They did extend him for 2 years but this wouldn't be the first time a team extended a player and then traded him
 
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I'm willing to gamble on bridging Strome and letting Chytil take over 2C in a year or two. He's already put in the work on his defense and he oozes talent on offense. Another year we could see a big leap.

Then the following year with contracts off the books and assessing the young guys, not to mention more draft prospects, we can then start trading away our chips for whatever it is we need. Maybe we won't need a 2C or LD by then.

Agree in general and especially the timeline but IMHO there still will be a need for a quality two-way 3C, and one quality LD.
 
Step already got a $3M signing bonus on July 1st courtesy of Slats and Gorton's structuring of the deal. He's only owed $2M base salary for the calendar 2021-2022 season. As much as he's dropped off in performance, if the Coyotes are cutting salary to save money, Stepan is the last. Having a center to keep the team somewhat held together isn't bad for $2M if they do move on from a ton of good players. Raanta got his $2M in signing bonus as well I believe leaving him with $2M in salary. If they move Keumper, then Raanta will be good to have since he has rebound potential if he stays healthy for only $2M.

Grabner is all $3.775M in salary. He's one that they might move to save money and recoup some draft capital. Still a good player. Goligoski is owed $4M all salary no signing bonus so maybe he gets shipped to clear budget.

As much as money might dictate the competitiveness of the Coyotes, they're not moving Dvorak or Crouse or Chychrun or one of the their good young players to ship their "A" after trading their captain just to save $2M.

Chayka left them with a bunch of one-way, or high value AHL deals with minor leaguers making $350k-$450k. Guys like Oesterle are likely being shipped out. Last year I overvalued Trouba by 2 pieces. I probably did the same with Keller a few weeks ago with 5 assets going out, with salary coming back. But in a situation like this, clearing long term debt makes the team more appetizing to sell, or get investors to come in.

I for one am thinking selling will be the healthier option.

Kuemper, yes there will be a market for him. I think he moves. Chycrun, no. Crouse, no. Dvorak, I am not interested in, I just don't see anything there to sign up for that term. IE not a core player.

Grabner will be hard to move, but Goligoski is manageable.
 
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I understand the thinking behind the deal. I'm just not sold on Dvorak.

To your points:

1) I think Howden still has a place on this team (granted I'm not one of the people who craps on him)
2) I think Lemieux still has upside and can be a goo/very good third liner'
3) If the 22nd pick is in play, I would rather use it to move up in the draft

Whatsmore, if Dvorak is the player is you describe, why would AZ want to make this trade?
Just addressing the bolded.

They gave it a(n inadvisable) push this year, and it didn't work out, and now they're left with a declining Kessel, a declining Stepan, a declining OEL, and Hall's about to bolt. Also, their goalies are a mess. Meanwhile, their finances are in rough shape, and they've got no 1st, no 2nd, no 3rd this year, and no 1st and no 3rd next year. Sure, they can try to unload some of the bigger, older names on large contracts to address the financial issue, but as we just saw with the Bjugstad deal, that won't do much to help with actually rebuilding the team, especially in the flat-cap world.

I mean, if Bjugstad at half price just returned a conditional 7th, what is Derek Stepan bringing back? Does Phil Kessel, for all his past glory, even garner you a single 1st round pick, given he's 32, coming off 38 pts in 70GP, with $6.8MM due for two more years? And of course, OEL is priced based on his play in his mid 20s, but is now 29 and locked in at $8.25MM for seven more years. You get the picture.

So, what can they do to actually start rebuilding?

Yes, Keller is on a $7.15MM AAV for 8 more years, but he's also one of the few legit top line talents they possess, is only 22, and you'd be selling super low. Is it better to move the player – or keep him and hope he rebounds, either to be part of the core going forward or to build his value? (If it's not working out, you can always decide to move him again in 1-2 years, when he'll still be only be 23-24, with fewer years remaining on his deal, and the flat cap closer to ending.)

Chychrun is also only 22, and unlike Keller, way outperforms his contract. So, while he'd likely fetch a boatload, wouldn't it be better to keep and build around him?

IMO, Dvorak/Schmaltz are their best bets to move for real restocking purposes. Both 24, both signed sub-$6MM longterm, Schmaltz with more offensive bona fides (to this point), Dvorak cheaper and signed for 1 less year. (As @bobbop points out, a useful vet with one year remaining who actually justifies his contract – unlike Stepan – such as Hjalmarsson might provide some value, but again, in a flat-cap world is it really going to be anything to really move the needle?)

I do agree that Arizona would be more interested in picks/prospects than players of Howden/Lemieux's profile if they were to trade them.
 
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Im pretty sure it’s Marc Staal related. ARRRRRR being a pirate and Marc Staal having one good eye. Whether it’s a buyout or a retirement idk.
 
I am all in for getting Dvorak. I think he will break out here like Zibanejad did away from the no offense, clueless Yotes. However, I'm not prepared to give that up. I'd much rather give up a package of Kravtsov, Jones and Gettinger. Something like that. They might want Kravtsov, Jones and Reunanen. I'm good with that also. Those 2 defenseman prospects are talented but small and we don't need any more of those types with Lundkvist, Fox and DeAngelo.

Not moving Kravtsov.
 
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So I'm genuinely confused:
a) Howden gets crapped on and people think he will be nothing more than a 4th liner
b) people think Lemieux is a glorified 4th liner
2) the 22nd overall pick

For a 2C who is signed long term at a very reasonable cap number and is 24 years old?

He's defensively responsible and growing offensively. Even if he plateaus and is a 40ish point center that's valuable with Chytil as his 2a alternative.

Lost me at Dvorak being a 2nd line center.

Never posted 40 points, yet he's a 2c??
 
Dvorak really shouldn't be moving from Arizona. But it's going to be very very hard for them to move the bigger contracts to older players.

I think they will look to move OEL, Hjalmersson and Keumper (MAYBE Grabner and Goligoski) first as those are the most attractive players with bigger contracts to move. Dvorak, Chychrun, Schmaltz and Keller are likely looked at as the future. If they can move 2 or 3 of the former they will do that. If not, then one of the young core may have to go. But of the vets, none will return significant draft picks if they are asking the other team to take on significant salary. They are going to get leveraged pretty hard here. Gonna be interesting.
 
I’d be perfectly ok shipping Howden out. Not sold on him at all in improving his game to be anything more than a 4th liner. The kid is a black hole defensively and he plays center. He seemingly can never finish even in high scoring opportunities. Maybe he was able to score a bit at the junior level but at the NHL level there are a lot of great goalies, with a lot of teams even having a solid 1B to put in on a night to night basis. He isn’t very big and constantly gets absolutely bodied out there. He is entering year 3 of his Pro career, how much longer before he starts “filling out” and getting bigger? Or is this just who he is physically? He is also terrible on the faceoff dot, absolutely terrible. So if you say well maybe he can be ok on the wing...is that really what we need? A average sized, mediocre winger? We can find better options at that point.

I will continue to say it, but while Lias maybe didn’t play lights out in preseason last year, he looked better than Howden and should’ve gotten the nod over him. And if anything, neither should have then. I dont see it being long before someone such as Barron displaces Howden unless something changes dramatically for the kid this offseason.
 
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Not moving Kravtsov.
I like Dvorak as an option.

But that is LOL funny that someone would move Kravtsov for a guy who has been nothing more than a 3rd line center thus far in his career, at times looking like he can play 2C. Not happening.

And then to throw Jones in too? You’d think we’re trading for Nylander or Monahan with that package.
 
I like Dvorak as an option.

But that is LOL funny that someone would move Kravtsov for a guy who has been nothing more than a 3rd line center thus far in his career, at times looking like he can play 2C. Not happening.

And then to throw Jones in too? You’d think we’re trading for Nylander or Monahan with that package.
Dvorak obsession is bizarre to me and it's unrealistic anyway. There are so many other players they need to ship out and have no real incentive to move him short of a deal they cannot pass up, and Dvorak is not the player you go all in for.

I am willing to bet Gorton and Toronto have had conversations about Nylander.
 
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