Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part IX: Trying To Reason With The Upcoming Season

[Off Sides]

But that's just it, I don't think they're giving up on developing him. I think they're looking for him to somewhat meet them half-way.

So yes, if after 200 some odd pro games, he still isn't taking that next step, there's not going to be the same sense of investment that there is if he comes into camp and makes himself stand out. I think that's probably true for most teams.

Again, I think the biggest change for ADA was the fact that Pionk has probably pulled ahead of him at this point. Pionk was an unknown quantity when the Rangers acquired ADA. The hope is that they both develop, you're lucky if one develops, and the reality is that neither could've developed.

ADA came in with more of the pedigree, but Pionk probably took more advantage of his opportunities in the AHL and NHL.

Unfortunately, that's life.

But no one is going anywhere until ADA shows if he's ready for the next challenge. The Rangers aren't handing him a spot, nor are they trading Shattenkirk so they can throw him into the deep end.

If ADA earns a regular spot, and the Rangers see progress, they'll take it from there. But nothing is written in stone at this point, and you'd like to believe that ADA would rise to the challenge. We can move onward and upward from there.

Where is the ice time to develop him?

Shattenkirk will play the PP, McQuaid the PK, 5on5 those two are also going to play.

Are they are going to give ADA the last 20-30 seconds of a PP, give him some 5on5 ice time with either Staal or Smith, and when he fails pretty much call it that he just was not good enough? If that is going to be the barometer of whether or not ADA is good enough for the NHL, aren't they kind of setting him up to not be good enough?

 

[Webster]

Stop this Staal bashing, he was actually one of the better d last season.

Staal has a lot of respect here, he's been an alternate captain since 2010. And a player with a letter will not be the 13th forward or 7th d.

 

[Off Sides]

I really don't agree with the logic in this argument. This is a rebuilding team, and that's the philosophy in the front office from James Dolan all the way down to David Oliver. They traded for McQuaid, not to play him, but to ensure that in the event that either the younger players need some more AHL time or there are injuries, their backfill isn't a 4A player like Kampfer. This way, they can continue to provide their young players with NHL caliber partners, no matter what the situation. If they were looking to acquire somebody to be an everyday part of the roster, they would have been willing to pay more than they did, or they would have found someone in free agency.

The GM of this rebuilding team just traded futures for McQuaid not to play him?

There are some contradictions in there.

 

[Tawnos]

The GM of this rebuilding team just traded futures for McQuaid not to play him?

There are some contradictions in there.

Yeah... because having NHL quality depth helps the young guys we have now. That's not a contradiction. At the very least, it's nuance... but in no way is it a contradiction.

And that's not even getting into how the Rangers didn't trade anything for McQuaid.

 

[Off Sides]

Yeah... because having NHL quality depth helps the young guys we have now. That's not a contradiction. At the very least, it's nuance... but in no way is it a contradiction.

And that's not even getting into how the Rangers didn't trade anything for McQuaid.

They are going to give him ice time, ice time that would have gone to someone else, that is part of the trade. You are also assuming the Rangers recoup those assets, plausible yet also he could be injured or unwanted.

Kampfer was not going to play unless it was an injury situation, that is a little different than them acquiring McQuaid.

I think this is a trade that in no way can benefit the chances that both ADA and Poink make the NHL. Something that was plausible before the trade, something that would have benefited a rebuilding team far more than adding McQuaid.

 

[Tawnos]

They are going to give him ice time, ice time that would have gone to someone else, that is part of the trade. You are also assuming the Rangers recoup those assets, plausible yet also he could be injured or unwanted.

Kampfer was not going to play unless it was an injury situation, that is a little different than them acquiring McQuaid.

I think this is a trade that in no way can benefit the chances that both ADA and Poink make the NHL. Something that was plausible before the trade, something that would have benefited a rebuilding team far more than adding McQuaid.

Oh, I have no doubt he will end up playing at least 40 games, but I don't believe for a second it's because he will be blocking a spot from a deserving youngster.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

They are going to give him ice time, ice time that would have gone to someone else, that is part of the trade. You are also assuming the Rangers recoup those assets, plausible yet also he could be injured or unwanted.

Kampfer was not going to play unless it was an injury situation, that is a little different than them acquiring McQuaid.

I think this is a trade that in no way can benefit the chances that both ADA and Poink make the NHL. Something that was plausible before the trade, something that would have benefited a rebuilding team far more than adding McQuaid.

I don't know if thats right but I do know that I completely disagree with it. If ADA and/or Pionk can't beat out McQuaid, then they've got problems.

JG has stressed that they wanted to add leadership and character in the locker room. It's been repeated ad nauseum - thats something that Kampfer wasn't going to provide.

They made a move to address that - It isn't necessary for him to be any more than a 7th D in order to do that. Same goes for Staal.

 

[Off Sides]

Oh, I have no doubt he will end up playing at least 40 games, but I don't believe for a second it's because he will be blocking a spot from a deserving youngster.

If one does not think ADA is deserving, one must think the Rangers made a mistake in trading for him, no?

Just trying to crack the code where the Rangers always do everything right and can always have it both ways, not really directed at you.

 

[QJL]

My prediction on the opening night lineup:

Kreider - Zibanejad - Buchnevich
Namestnikov - Chytil - Zuccarello
Andersson - Hayes - Fast
Spooner - Howden - Vesey
McLeod

Skjei - Shattenkirk
Staal - Pionk
Claesson - McQuaid
Smith - DeAngelo

Lundqvist
Georgiev

Nieves and Hajek are first call ups.

 

[Off Sides]

I don't know if thats right but I do know that I completely disagree with it. If ADA and/or Pionk can't beat out McQuaid, then they've got problems.

JG has stressed that they wanted to add leadership and character in the locker room. It's been repeated ad nauseum - thats something that Kampfer wasn't going to provide.

They made a move to address that - It isn't necessary for him to be any more than a 7th D in order to do that. Same goes for Staal.

That part I understand, I don't really think it's a good idea for the Rangers to have no toughness/character/whatever, it's just I don't think ADA/Pionk are in competition for the on ice role of McQuaid. I feel they made the move because they want his whatever role to be on the ice as well as in the locker room. So I am assuming he is playing, which I feel is relatively safe assumption.

I think they are sacrificing development time to have that role, in some ways I agree with that, in other ways I think it's likely to turn out to be very much like every other player they've had who they thought fit that role, where the rest of the team for the most part deferred to that role player(s) to take care of those aspects of the game and find little motivation in taking it upon themselves to be involved in those aspects.

 

[Tawnos]

If one does not think ADA is deserving, one must think the Rangers made a mistake in trading for him, no?

Just trying to crack the code where the Rangers always do everything right and can always have it both ways, not really directed at you.

I don't know if DeAngelo is deserving or not, at this particular moment. I don't know if Pionk is either. We will find out in the next few weeks/months.

On the topic of the Rangers making a mistake acquiring him, there's two different evaluations when it comes to acquiring picks and prospects. There was the trade at the time it was made, which would be whether it was a good or bad trade from a valuation standpoint. And then there's how those picks and prospects turn out, which would be if the trade turned out to be good or bad. I don't really see how a prospect not developing could ever lead me to think a trade was a mistake, so long as the former evaluation was good. I would say the Stepan trade was an okay deal. I would have really liked another piece in there. I really wouldn't classify it as a mistake, but that in no way precludes me from feeling the trade turned out to be a bad one.

 

[BringBackLibertys]

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

My prediction on the opening night lineup:

Kreider - Zibanejad - Buchnevich
Namestnikov - Chytil - Zuccarello
Andersson - Hayes - Fast
Spooner - Howden - Vesey
McLeod

Skjei - Shattenkirk
Staal - Pionk
Claesson - McQuaid
Smith - DeAngelo

Lundqvist
Georgiev

Nieves and Hajek are first call ups.

We gon' Suck.

 

[Tawnos]

No invites except Brodeur... and I'm not sure he would be there if Halverson wasn't hurt.

 

[BringBackLibertys]

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Brodeur better play against the Devils

 

[BringBackLibertys]

I give team A and C the best chance at the pre-season cup.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Stop this Staal bashing, he was actually one of the better d last season.

Staal has a lot of respect here, he's been an alternate captain since 2010. And a player with a letter will not be the 13th forward or 7th d.

Nah, we'll do as we please considering it's a message board and we're allowed to discuss our opinions about the players on the team.

Girardi was an alternate captain too, yet was bought out about a month after our playoff loss to the Sens.

Staal sucks and his contract sucks too. He was a warrior for a long time and I respect him as a player, but I can't wait until he's done playing for this team.

 

[Fvital92]

One veteran for every rookie. I'm pretty hopeful for a Buch-Lias line, think they will be a good match.

 

[Edge]

Where is the ice time to develop him?

Shattenkirk will play the PP, McQuaid the PK, 5on5 those two are also going to play.

Are they are going to give ADA the last 20-30 seconds of a PP, give him some 5on5 ice time with either Staal or Smith, and when he fails pretty much call it that he just was not good enough? If that is going to be the barometer of whether or not ADA is good enough for the NHL, aren't they kind of setting him up to not be good enough?

Honestly, I don't know that yet. And I would suspect the Rangers don't either.

First of all, we don't know even know what we have or don't have with any of these guys. McQ could very well be on his last legs in this league, I simply don't take some of those assumptions as a given. However, I will admit that there's definitely a strong possibility.

As for ADA, I don't think the barometer is going to just be what he shows in 20 or 30 seconds of PP time.

His play in camp and the preseason will be a factor. As will his play last season in NY and in Hartford.

At some point, ADA's play has to be a determining factor.

Not his potential play. Not ideas of the player he might be, or could be, or should be, or was one projected to be. But the player he actually shows himself to be --- and he's going to get the opportunity over the next few weeks in camp and the preseason.

ADA's future is on ADA. Not McQ, not AV, or Gorton or Pionk or anyone else.

He's going to be 23 years old and in his third pro season. He's not a panda. At some point there's only so many elements of support that can be put in place for him to thrive.

 

[Fvital92]

I give team A and C the best chance at the pre-season cup.

Well if A and C are the favorites, B is definitely winning, just like Traverse.
BTW, B sucks.

 

[RangerBoy]

If it's Tampa, Gorton will need to move some money around to fit in Callahan's $5.8M. Callahan will be out for the first month coming off shoulder surgery so the Rangers have some time. Tampa would need to move money to fit in Karlsson.

 

[Edge]

If one does not think ADA is deserving, one must think the Rangers made a mistake in trading for him, no?

Just trying to crack the code where the Rangers always do everything right and can always have it both ways, not really directed at you.

I don't know if we know either way, nor do I think anyone is making any claims either way.

I think we have to wait and see how he performs.

I also think we have to acknowledge that any time you trade for unproven talent, it's going to be a risk. In ADA's case, we don't yet know if he's going to pan out. But let's assume for a moment that he doesn't.

Let's assume he has a bad camp, doesn't help his cause in the preseason and generally just doesn't look like a player who is a missing piece of the roster.

I think I'd like to at least have an option available that doesn't come with a long-term commitment, or force a developing player into the lineup before they're ready. To that end, McQ is no worse than that option.

With that said, I'd love for ADA to have a great camp, great preseason and form a connection with this staff. But I don't know if it'll happen.

 

[Kovalev27]

Bobby Butler?

 

[Off Sides]

Honestly, I don't know that yet. And I would suspect the Rangers don't either.

First of all, we don't know even know what we have or don't have with any of these guys. McQ could very well be on his last legs in this league, I simply don't take some of those assumptions as a given. However, I will admit that there's definitely a strong possibility.

As for ADA, I don't think the barometer is going to just be what he shows in 20 or 30 seconds of PP time.

His play in camp and the preseason will be a factor. As will his play last season in NY and in Hartford.

At some point, ADA's play has to be a determining factor.

Not his potential play. Not ideas of the player he might be, or could be, or should be, or was one projected to be. But the player he actually shows himself to be --- and he's going to get the opportunity over the next few weeks in camp and the preseason.

ADA's future is on ADA. Not McQ, not AV, or Gorton or Pionk or anyone else.

He's going to be 23 years old and in his third pro season. He's not a panda. At some point there's only so many elements of support that can be put in place for him to thrive.

Why would the Rangers trade for someone who is on their last legs?

Okay I am kind of just being a jerk there but all in all I think they probably have a roster they expect to make the NHL, have a roster they expect to play in most of the games, and have at least given some thought to who will play in what roles.

Good conversation, I don't think we are going to sway each other.