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Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part IX: Can't take Staal away from AV

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Mac n Gs said:
I'm expecting Carey to be sent to the AHL once Fast returns. That's why I mentioned Cracknell being a 13thF
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If we send Carey down (likely, actually) it’s because Fast is back, we have no injuries, and we’re still carrying 8 D. Maybe they send down Kampfer instead, but I don’t see them sending down Carey to make room for Cracknell, who was more than available when we signed Carey. Cracknell is a Hitchcock guy, was brought in and brought back as depth in St. Louis a number of seasons. He’s a pretty reliable 13F, but if Hitchcock is waiving him now in Dallas, I think it’s pretty telling. Also- Carey is playing well, has some history with our roster.
 
Did Nash skate by a puck in our crease last night on one of the later goals (Komarov)? I can not say for sure but he looked to be the first guy there in real time and just waived at the puck instead of stopping.
 
alkurtz said:
So, lets talk about the 900 lb gorilla in the room: the role of defensemen in today's NHL.

Yes, the idea and ideal today is that a Dman must, first and foremost, be able to move the puck quickly out of the zone, perhaps with a transition pass or by carrying the puck himself, and hopefully contribute offensively in a speed oriented game. One of the principles of this way of thinking is that the less time you spend defending, the less pressure there will be on your goalie, the more time you will spend in the opposition's end and the more offensive chances you will have. Perhaps we have lost sight of what should be the primary role of Dmen: to play defense first and foremost.

Yes, there is certainly plenty of blame to go around that accounts for our poor defensive start: a aging goalie who is no longer capable of covering up for his team's defensive lapses and atrocious down low coverage by our forwards. Yes, the ideal is to have defensemen who can be strong in both defending and in playing a speed, transition game. But the number of guys who can do both at a high level is finite. We have one: McD. Perhaps Skjei one day, but not yet. Not Shatty, not TDA (why do I keep thinking of Travid d'Arnaud? I kind of like ADA better), not Smith. Staal, who was once an elite defender, is not so any longer.

What do I mean by being able to play defense, first and foremost? To play strong in front of your own net to keep the crease clear, to be sound postionally, to be able to clear the puck away from the crease, to make smart decisions as to coverage and when to block shots, in the neutral zone to keep the gaps tight, to control the blueline. Perhaps we have forgotten that this should be the primary #1 job of defensemen. The thinking is, that if you can't move the puck, you are not an NHL Dman. Perhaps it should read: if you can not play defense, you are not an NHL Dman.

Now, I am not arguing or saying that we should go back to the days when slow-f00ted pylons were the norm. I am not so foolish as to think that things were better in the old days. What I am beginning to think is that perhaps we have gone to far in the other direction. It is not like Shattenkirk (or Yandle before him) is an incandescent talent like Brian Leetch: on a whole other level offensively and who made himself into a pretty good defender. I'm not quite sure that, on balance, Dmen like Shattenkirk (and perhaps TDA one day) are as valuable as we make them out to be. On balance, they might hurt as much as they help, particularly on a team that has other defensive deficiencies.

This team is in trouble defensively: certainly it will get better but it might never be "good." We might need guys who can play strong in their own end more than guys who can contribute on the other end. Right now our D mix is not good: McD is a fine defenseman but not so elite that we can make up for poor play by his partner. Skjei is still growing; but to "grow" on a poor defensive team is not easy and can lead to stunted growth. I'm sorry, Shattenkirk and TDA have a long way to go to show me that they are capable of playing defense. We should have no illusions about Smith. He never lived up to his promise in Detroit, played himself down the pairings and eventually out of town. Yes, he was really good for us and I was all for resigning him, but it won't be the first time that we were taken in by a brief sample size. Staal is what he is: a ghost of what he was. Holden is not the answer. Graves might be an NHL defender now, but he would be a rookie. Pionk might be another example of what passes for an NHL defender these days but like TDA, might be one dimensional. At this point Bereglazov is a cipher and has been a disappointment.

Now, I'm just throwing this out here for discussion. I'm not even convinced of my own argument. I'm just suggesting that we may have lost sight of the primary job of an NHL defenseman: to play defense. In this day and age that might mean spending less time in your own zone by moving the puck through passing or carrying it yourself. But the other team is trying to do the same thing. No matter what you do, you will be spending significant time in your own zone and you must defend. If you goaltending is mediocre and your forwards are not doing their job, there is going to be pressure on your D in your own zone. You must be able to defend. I'm not sure this group of six is capable of doing that. I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But I'm not encouraged.

Discuss.
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Excellent post. I mentioned this yesterday.

The offensive/defensive balance is not there with our defense. For it to be there, Skjei will have to develop his defensive game very quickly, and we'll need the best defensive displays from Smith and Holden that we saw last season.

I think the defense will improve but we've let up 12 in two games, so it needs to improve a lot.
 
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TheKingsCourt said:
I want one of Turris or Duchene, and I am willing to package Hayes with Holden+
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No. Stop pls w/ win now. guys that are too expensive to retain and debatable as to how productive vs what we give up.


Amazing Kreiderman said:
We can always move Zibanejad to RW hahaha
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laugh all you want, be so dismissive of a fresh thought that you choose to approach ignorance.

Zib to RW in a vacuum is not likely best.
However w/a good pivot option and Kreider as counterpart W it makes lots of sense.
There may be other better options, but Miller is a solid choice to pivot those 2.
We are now seeing I was right about Miller able to cut it at C.
So let's create a dominant line and nay to the nay sayers.


brians1128 said:
Turris is a free agent at the end of the year, if we move Hayes we still have a hole at C, If we like Turris and the price is right we could have him for free. Moving Hayes for him seems like bad asset management. If we are a bubble team or non playoff contender, sell Nash, sell Holden, sell grabner at the deadline. In the offseason hope we draft high, make some moves still, Vegas has 40 million to 13 players and you gotta think some of the ELC's make their way into roster spots next year. They may need to add salary, Can we use Hayes's rights as a bargaining chip for Vegas to take Staal? Can we sign Turris for nothing? Will Andersson be ready for a 3C role?
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Yes on the bold.
Think a better move on using Hayes to get rid of Staal is to do a larger deal w/Leafs for McDonagh.
 
Mac n Gs said:
Brooks complaining about Eichel getting that contract is pure stupidity. You don’t dick around with your franchise cornerstone. Did he already forget how bad they were last year when Eichel went down? Then he justifies it by using the Kucherov contract because Yzerman had awful contracts on the books and no cap space. Just pitiful writing, and I like Brooks. Guess he’s gonna hate Skjei’s contract too when we give him 7 years and $40M
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Actually I think Brooks is right. Some teams are quick to hand out long term extensions. Others force the bridge. It depends on the quality of the player. The Rangers have done mostly bridges and it has worked out well. McDonagh clearly earned a multi year deal. So did Eichel, McDavid et. al. Giving an 8 year contract to a defenseman who scored 19 points last year is almost certainly bad business. Too many teams have handed out too many sweetheart contracts and gotten themselves in a world of hurt.
 
bobbop said:
Actually I think Brooks is right. Some teams are quick to hand out long term extensions. Others force the bridge. It depends on the quality of the player. The Rangers have done mostly bridges and it has worked out well. McDonagh clearly earned a multi year deal. So did Eichel, McDavid et. al. Giving an 8 year contract to a defenseman who scored 19 points last year is almost certainly bad business. Too many teams have handed out too many sweetheart contracts and gotten themselves in a world of hurt.
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Brooks is criticizing Buffalo for giving Eichel a contract with a higher AAV than Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby. His reasoning behind it, is ridiculous. Doesn't account for the salary cap and the percentage the AAV takes up. Instead he just looks at raw numbers and complains. That's the same as complaining a beer cost $1 in the 1950s and they are so expensive now.
 
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J. Vesey is a borderline 3rd line player at the moment - strugging with 0 pts. this season and can`t finish plays. We need to draft a winger next year with our #1. It looks like Vesey is a 4th line player at the moment. We won`t get much in return for him if Gorton is trying to move him.
 
Ori said:
J. Vesey is a borderline 3rd line player at the moment - strugging with 0 pts. this season and can`t finish plays. We need to draft a winger next year with our #1. It looks like Vesey is a 4th line player at the moment. We won`t get much in return for him if Gorton is trying to move him.
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im not worried with his production so far, the first two games he played on the 4th line....if hes playing in the top 9 he will produce, im not saying he will put up 60 points but he can comfortably fall in the 35-40 point range
 
So hard to speculate numbers with Vesey though. He was 2012 NSH, 3rd rd, 5th pk (66th overall) in 2012. Anyone have an accurate scout report on him?
He started well last year in top 9, but ended on the 4th line end of the season, and started slow this year in his 3 games.
 
We have no choice. Gotta let Vesey play through it with a top 9 role. We invested a top 9 spot in the guy, we don't have the depth to change that at this point in the season. I do think this is a make or break season though. He needs to show he's a third liner this season. If not, we might need to make preparations for a new 3LW next season.

His skating looks improved as does his passing, finishing and defense could use some work.
 
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He just played a whole season for us. Was very good in the Ottawa series. Was solid in preseason. And you need a scouting report on him? Because he hasn’t scored a point in three games playing on the 4th line. A line that features Paul f***ing Carey.

Overreacting much?
 
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Three Eastern conference individuals gave their thoughts on Nash. GM,AGM & scout on Nash as a free agent. Mixed feelings. The AGM thought Nash compared Nash to Kessel going to Pittsburgh and suggested Edmonton with CMD. LeBrun mentioned the 12 team trade list. He submits a 12 team list where the Rangers can trade him. I am sorry but if another team offers Gorton a #1 pick at the February deadline for Nash. He needs to accept it. From reading the three quotes,there should be a strong market for Nash in the summer as a free agent and there is no way the Rangers should give him a contract similar to what Marleau got. LeBrun mentioned Marleau in the article. Nash is looking forward to being a free agent. He hopes it works out for him and he can stay here but he said the reality of the situation is Nash will be a free agent. The Rangers have enough wings. They are winning the Cup this season. Trade him at the deadline. Make two first round selections again this June. Win. Win.
 
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The only thing that it make sense to move Nash for is 2018 1st. He is probably the best rental forward option that is hypothetically available as well. It is not an unreasonable ask.
 
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I can foresee Nash gone, Hayes gone, B. Smith gone, and Zucc contract will be too expensive with his current pace and point production so he will be gone too. All will celebrate and look to review their career with a completely different NHL team away from, AV.
 


NYR needs to be in on this, would need to be a bit creative to make the money work but i'm sure Vegas could retain if needed...
Hard to gauge what the cost would be though given the circumstances. He would be amazing with Nash though imo.
 
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What would a trade for Ship even look like? Knowing how GMGM has done thus far, he'll probably be swindled in a trade.

It would solve our center depth immediately.
 
I would be surprised if anyone risks trading something of value for a guy that is actively trying to leave the league ASAP.
 
Irishguy42 said:
What would a trade for Ship even look like? Knowing how GMGM has done thus far, he'll probably be swindled in a trade.

It would solve our center depth immediately.
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It's a tough one to make, i assume we don't want to give up a good roster player, so to make money work it's Grabner + Holden, i doubt Vegas actually wants Holden so either trade him in a separate deal for futures or make it like Grabner + Vegas retains on Ship?

Then add futures to that, no idea how much, depends how many teams are in on him.
 
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