Roster Building thread - Part IX - (2024 edition)

[bbny]

Didn't we lose this game with Dowd scoring?

Glad we set the tone.

Yes. Lost 3-2. Lindgren was a +2.

Irrelevant point anyway. The comment I responded to said removing Lindgren doesn't make the team less tough, and he's a pinata.

 

[Machinehead]

Chytil came in at 4.437. His high in goals in close to Dickinson's high in points. Wouldn't have been worth it.

 

[GAGLine]

Chytil came in at 4.437. His high in goals in close to Dickinson's high in points. Wouldn't have been worth it.

I was thinking of Dickinson as a rental, not a long term piece.

 

[Machinehead]

Yes. Lost 3-2. Lindgren was a +2.

Irrelevant point anyway. The comment I responded to said removing Lindgren doesn't make the team less tough, and he's a pinata.

He is a pinata. Post the videos of him getting absolutely blown up this year,

I dont care about open ice hits. I care that we have other players constantly winning the battles below the goal line and in front of our net. The opponent knows they can get there easily.

I agree with this but it isn't "toughness" the way most people are going to describe it.

I don't care what they say, most people still just want a clown that runs around after the whistle blows.

There was a whole diatribe after the game Sunday on nobody stepping up to punch Wilson in the nose. Yeah, take a 5 minute major in a 2-1 game.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I was thinking of Dickinson as a rental, not a long term piece.

I like him too, and also agree we should be looking to add a C to cover a Chytil absence scenario. My guess is that CHI resigns him. For pending UFAs, this leaves us with Henrique or Monahan. Maybe Johnson if DET falters

 

[NYR Viper]

I like him too, and also agree we should be looking to add a C to cover a Chytil absence scenario. My guess is that CHI resigns him. For pending UFAs, this leaves us with Henrique or Monahan. Maybe Johnson if DET falters

He was just re-signed (Dickinson) so he's off anyone's list

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

For lines with minimum 225 minutes together

This reads like a cherry picked MSG broadcast stat that Sam Rosen is proudly announcing NYR lead the league in

 

[bbny]

He is a pinata. Post the videos of him getting absolutely blown up this year,

I know he has not been good at protecting himself. I just don't know why we have to be reductionist about what he is or brings to the lineup. Taking a hit to make a play is a good thing, particularly when the playoffs roll around. He just has to position himself to take them better. Can he learn it? I think so. Will he? *Shrugs*

He's open to plenty of criticism in other areas and I just don't see why we have to pretend that taking him out of the lineup equates to not losing toughness. It seems to me the majority of the angst is because he's slotted up too high, and he is and that's fine, but there's plenty to support a move down the lineup without conjuring up stuff like we don't lose toughness without him.

 

[Savant]

Jesus, for $3M, they could have signed Fast and kept the best line in the league together. That's a thought I just had.

Another Gorton/Davidson masterclass

Fast didn’t want to come back.

Can’t cry over spilled milk. He didn’t want to be here

 

[McRanger92]

He is a pinata. Post the videos of him getting absolutely blown up this year,

I agree with this but it isn't "toughness" the way most people are going to describe it.

I don't care what they say, most people still just want a clown that runs around after the whistle blows.

There was a whole diatribe after the game Sunday on nobody stepping up to punch Wilson in the nose. Yeah, take a 5 minute major in a 2-1 game.

Wilson is representative of the feeling among the fanbase that the Rangers are all talk when it comes to this kind of stuff. They let Wilson get away with the incident with Panarin despite talking a big game about it, specifically Sheriff Reaves. When they did nothing, other teams see that and take notice. Other teams know you can run their players and the Rangers will appeal to the refs, instead of policing things themselves. Nobody even looked at Aho cross-eyed in that game against the Canes and he's one of the softest players in the league. The Rangers dont have each other's backs enough.

There is a next level of competitiveness and intensity that this roster needs to reach, among their top players specifically, if they ever want to be more than just another playoff team. It makes them better when they are engaged in the physicality of the game on both ends and its just not there with enough consistency for my liking. Its been a common issue for years now. Another ho hum playoff performance this year and one of the leaders needs to go, or at least be put on notice. I would've stripped a few guys of A's awhile ago personally, i know thats mostly symbolic but it would at least send a message to the locker room.

Fast didn’t want to come back.

Can’t cry over spilled milk. He didn’t want to be here

One could argue he didnt want to come back based on how management was handling things. Dumping him Staal and Henrik then having a locker room crisis 3 games into the 2021 season would support this hypothesis.

 

[Fitzy]

In such a long and relatively unimportant regular season, you aren’t going to get one hundred percent effort every game. Not even close. Playing physical takes a toll on the opponent, but it takes a toll on our own roster too.

It’s one of the reasons why certain players struggle greatly in the postseason. Everyone is back checking one hundred percent of the time. Checks are being finished. And there aren’t any cupcake teams to boost stats.

I don’t know too many teams that played hard hockey all through the season. Torts boys here, Hitchcocks Blues in 2011-2015, none of them survived long enough to win a cup. People don’t want to hear it, but you don’t really want your roster to have to bust its ass all regular season. It’s not unlike having a series go 7 games. Wears you down

 

[Savant]

One could argue he didnt want to come back based on how management was handling things. Dumping him Staal and Henrik then having a locker room crisis 3 games into the 2021 season would support this hypothesis.

I mean why he didn't want to come back doesn't really matter. He did not want to stay so he left. Hard to say it was a bad decision for him. It is what it is.

 

[McRanger92]

I mean why he didn't want to come back doesn't really matter. He did not want to stay so he left. Hard to say it was a bad decision for him. It is what it is.

I agree with that, but a homegrown Ranger and locker room favorite choosing to leave reflects poorly on management. That was my original point in calling out Gorton and Davidson

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

He is a pinata. Post the videos of him getting absolutely blown up this year,

I agree with this but it isn't "toughness" the way most people are going to describe it.

I don't care what they say, most people still just want a clown that runs around after the whistle blows.

There was a whole diatribe after the game Sunday on nobody stepping up to punch Wilson in the nose. Yeah, take a 5 minute major in a 2-1 game.

I'll do it!





]



There are others, but I literally did this in under 60 seconds.

 

[MrAlmost]

Trust me, don't.

Yeah, I don't think I will. Tkachuk has 23 even strength points in 38 games. Has positive Evens possession metrics across the board. Has positive Evens rate metrics across the board. This despite getting equal O zone to D zone starts and being on a team with a suspect defense, bad goalie tandem and coach that despite the Canadian media yelling he isn't THE problem, is clearly A problem.

You say only offensive production matters, but then say some of our players, and some players people mention, are bad despite having good offensive metrics but bad defensive one. You held up Erik Karlsson as peak defense cause he was dominate offensively. But his D was horrible. Not the best example I know cause he is a D and not a forward.

Kreider is a good example. Possession and rate are nearly identical to Tkachuk, but Kreider gets more O zone starts, but you say Kreider is really good, but Tkachuk isn't.

I agree that the best defense is not just a good offense, but just having the puck all the time.

However, I am confused as to what you are valuing with all these charts. Perhaps I just can't read them correctly, which is true I have a tough time discerning what's important. But when I look at the larger tables for possession and rate, I get the sense that some players are good and some are bad not based on anything but preference. Cause the numbers look similar.

I guess that's an overlong way of saying Brady Tkachuk is a LW and we don't need that so I probably wouldn't trade for him. Haha

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah, I don't think I will. Tkachuk has 23 even strength points in 38 games. Has positive Evens possession metrics across the board. Has positive Evens rate metrics across the board. This despite getting equal O zone to D zone starts and being on a team with a suspect defense, bad goalie tandem and coach that despite the Canadian media yelling he isn't THE problem, is clearly A problem.

You say only offensive production matters, but then say some of our players, and some players people mention, are bad despite having good offensive metrics but bad defensive one. You held up Erik Karlsson as peak defense cause he was dominate offensively. But his D was horrible. Not the best example I know cause he is a D and not a forward.

Kreider is a good example. Possession and rate are nearly identical to Tkachuk, but Kreider gets more O zone starts, but you say Kreider is really good, but Tkachuk isn't.

I agree that the best defense is not just a good offense, but just having the puck all the time.

However, I am confused as to what you are valuing with all these charts. Perhaps I just can't read them correctly, which is true I have a tough time discerning what's important. But when I look at the larger tables for possession and rate, I get the sense that some players are good and some are bad not based on anything but preference. Cause the numbers look similar.

I guess that's an overlong way of saying Brady Tkachuk is a LW and we don't need that so I probably wouldn't trade for him. Haha

Kreider is nearly identical to Tkahcuk?

In this case, the difference is mostly defense. That matters when both guys are probably ~70 point players and Kreider is literally better at scoring goals.

"Oh but you held up Erik Karlsson."

Yes, because he had the best even strength offensive season basically in history. He's FIFTEEN standard deviations above Tkachuk.

What I value isn't mysterious at all. If your offensive impact is such that it makes you elite on its own, then I don't really care much about defensive impact. Tkahcuk doesn't have an elite offensive impact, he has a good offensive impact, while being terrible defensively. That's different from Karlsson who is one of the best 5v5 play-drivers of all-time or let's say Artemi Panarin who is on pace for a 56-62-118 season.

You can disagree with all of this but to claim that what I value is inconsistent just doesn't hold up. I value players that have a good impact and when it comes to the money Tkachuk is making (and the hype surrounding him), I value players that have an elite impact.

 

[I Eat Crow]

I'm fine with moving Lindgren, and shooting Goody to another dimension, but my god, talk about making a soft team already, into the biggest vat of goo you could possibly eyeball

Pro scouting has their work cut out for them. Not trading for Sam Bennett before he went to Florida was a major blunder. As perfect a buy low candidate as I've ever seen. This is where I look. Top two round picks in the last 3 to 7 years that are performing below expectations but still have high enough floors that they're useful in a bottom six or fringe middle six role. As well as players that are blocked by others ahead of them that may not be able to grow into their potential.


Here's some names:

Michael Rasmussen
Morgan Frost
Alex Texier
Barrett Hayton (Lafreniere connection)
Ty Dellandrea
Isac Lundestrom
Phil Tomasino
Brett Leason
Jack Quinn
Yegor Chinakov
Tyson Foerster
Conor Zary
Kent Johnson

 

[hardnosed]

Don't remind me that Adam Fox is on our second pair, I'm still on probation from the last coach I sent poisoned cannolis to.

You're not wrong. The...top pair (I wanna jump off a building) also needs to be upgraded. Miller is not the half that needs to be upgraded.

So, even if we trade Lindgren for a slight upgrade (and a slight upgrade is the best we can do in season because of the cap), the core problem remains. The Rangers consider Miller/Trouba to be our top pair.
Trouba can't be traded. He just had a baby. He's got a no trade. If you really want to upgrade our defense from the ground up, you have to consider trading Miller. And quite frankly, I've given up on him being Hedman. Miller has more value than Lindgren. Somebody would retain money to acquire him. Nobody is retaining money to get Lindgren. We would need to add other quality assets like a 1st or Othmann. Sorry, I'm not doing that to upgrade our 4th defenseman. If you trade Miller, maybe that shakes up the pairs. New guy with Fox. Gus with Trouba, etc. Trading Lindgren doesn't accomplish nothing. Miller and Trouba are still together.

 

[Machinehead]

So, even if we trade Lindgren for a slight upgrade (and a slight upgrade is the best we can do in season because of the cap), the core problem remains. The Rangers consider Miller/Trouba to be our top pair.
Trouba can't be traded. He just had a baby. He's got a no trade. If you really want to upgrade our defense from the ground up, you have to consider trading Miller. And quite frankly, I've given up on him being Hedman. Miller has more value than Lindgren. Somebody would retain money to acquire him. Nobody is retaining money to get Lindgren. We would need to add other quality assets like a 1st or Othmann. Sorry, I'm not doing that to upgrade our 4th defenseman. If you trade Miller, maybe that shakes up the pairs. New guy with Fox. Gus with Trouba, etc. Trading Lindgren doesn't accomplish nothing. Miller and Trouba are still together.

Before we do all these moves, have we considered maybe just not playing Trouba 22 minutes a game?

 

[hardnosed]

Before we do all these moves, have we considered maybe just not playing Trouba 22 minutes a game?

Yea. But be realistic. As long as Miller and Trouba are here, they are playing 22 minutes. Together!

 

[Raspewtin]

Yea. But be realistic. As long as Miller and Trouba are here, they are playing 22 minutes. Together!

i see what you're saying but my response to this would be "fantastic, another 54 year cup drought is right around the corner, this conversation is over"

 

[Machinehead]

Yea. But be realistic. As long as Miller and Trouba are here, they are playing 22 minutes. Together!

If we're being realistic, we're not getting rid of Miller either.

 

[Machinehead]

I mean, hell, if we're being realistic, we have Panarin, Kreider, and part of what Fox could be and we're going as far as they carry us.

I come on here to complain about that. That's what it's for.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Trading Lindgren gets Fox a better partner (at least in theory) that in itself is a pretty big win.

The problem with Lindgren is that he doesn’t work with any of the D. Playing Fox with someone who doesn’t murder offense is not something to be played down, it would be a big step forward.

 

[Ned Braden]

Good lord the Mika, Kreider complaints on this board are unreal...it's one raised hand after another in a competition to demonstrate who knows the least about actual hockey, which involves a bit more than OFFENSIVE stats (fancy or regular).

The Mika - Kreider line is asked every night to shut down the other team's best line. This has to happen because 1) the bread line is look away horrific defensively (which is generally fine for a line that produces offensively at the rates they are - but it would be nice if they tightened up a little); and 2) the Rangers currently don't have a third line.

For a time, the Rangers were using Pitlick - Goodrow - Vesey against top lines, and this somewhat freed up the Mika line from a matchup standpoint. But that's a lot of time on the ice for Goodrow and Pitlick, and injuries have messed that up.

You want to see the Mika line increase offensive output? Get a third line that can handle top line matchups. Flip Kakko to the third line and Cuylle to the Mika line. Kakko with perhaps Goodrow and Vesy (or, gasp, Perry) may be able to take some of the defensive load off of Mika and Kreider.