Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part III: Day by Day

[NickyFotiu]

Uhh, who cares if Glass spent time in the minors, he ended up on the team in the playoffs, even being on the ice up a goal in game 5 of the second round, the goal being scored against was the turning point in that series - we win game 5 we win the series IMO. So whether Tanner spent time in Hartford is irrelevant, the spirit of what people would have said this time last year about Tanner/AV remained the same, even if the details in the middle changed. Actually, what ended up happening was probably even worse.

I still can't get over Tanner being on the ice with a minute left and us up a goal in game 5 vs Ottawa. The goal was scored after a cross ice pass went right past where Glass was supposed to be but of course he was out of position. Good pass by Karlsson, but Fast/Grabner/Zib/Miller (basically anyone else) deflects that pass away 10 out of 10 times. Or the pass isn't even attempted because they're properly taking away the passing lane. Ugh.

Tanner playing in 11 of 82 regular sesson games last season then in 7 of 12 playoffs is not what people were saying would happen last summer. Tanner was only called up after JT Miller was chased around the rink with no help late in the season.

Staal may or may not be a Ranger next season. Staal may or may not play for us next season. People fear the worst but at this point those are just fears in my opinion. I do not think AV will purposely play Staal all season long if other guys play better. It isn't in his own best interest.

 

[eco's bones]

I would suggest reading the post again and then indicating exactly where I stated that he should play on the PK.

You never said he should play on their PK--you suggested his not getting the +'s from them affected his +/- adversely which it really didn't but the issue of whether he is a good defenseman as far as defending is pretty much part of why he doesn't PK and why he was scratched numerous times last year. He needs to get better in that area of the game if he's going to be a top defenseman.

 

[SA16]

No disagreement there.

For reference the league as a whole looks to have been -733 this year. The fact that that number isn't forced to zero is part of what makes it a majorly flawed number.

 

[Boruto]

Last year at this time many people said AV would never send Glass to the minors. AV only has a job if he wins. He is not going to put Staal ahead of his own future. Brady and Smith did out play Staal and Holden but Holden was benched. Then Brady/Smith actually played worse in the deciding game. I suspect AV has positive feelings for most our players but he is a professional. If other guys are clearly better than Staal they will play imo.

Seems to me like there's less evidence for what you're arguing and more for the opposite. Glass was sent down vs. played in the playoffs and remained with the team after AV talked to Gorton about bringing him up. Brady has 1 below average game in the playoffs out of 12, was one of the top performers in the playoffs but his benching was justified even though that poor game came at the very end? Staal was the worst Ranger on the ice and was never benched. Brady's worst game is better than any of Staal of Holden's 12 games. Vigneault's pathetic "lost Skjei-Smith on the bench" for the final 17 minutes of the 2 goal lead we blew gives you confidence that Vigneault play his best players? Skjei came off the ice after scoring a massive insurance goal and was benched. His 2nd goal that night with Smith who was playing great two way hockey. That's worst than Torts yelling at McDonagh for scoring a goal.

Plus, fact of the matter is, Glass is not an NHL player if he changed his name to NHL, Player. He shouldn't have been called up and he shouldn't have played in the playoffs.

It was game 2 of the Montreal series that we lost when everyone questioned Vigneault's usage of Staal-Holden in the final minutes and we died by it in the end over and over and over again. All the leads we blew because Staal-Holden kept getting minutes. It still ****ing irritates the **** out of me. I'm not sure how you can possibly think Vigneault will play his best players when he's played Tanner Glass over an entire NHL roster in the past. Stempniak is perpetually pissed off over being scratched for Glass that he scores against us every single game.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Seems to me like there's less evidence for what you're arguing and more for the opposite. Glass was sent down vs. played in the playoffs and remained with the team after AV talked to Gorton about bringing him up. Brady has 1 below average game in the playoffs out of 12, was one of the top performers in the playoffs but his benching was justified even though that poor game came at the very end? Staal was the worst Ranger on the ice and was never benched. Brady's worst game is better than any of Staal of Holden's 12 games. Vigneault's pathetic "lost Skjei-Smith on the bench" for the final 17 minutes of the 2 goal lead we blew gives you confidence that Vigneault play his best players? Skjei came off the ice after scoring a massive insurance goal and was benched. His 2nd goal that night with Smith who was playing great two way hockey. That's worst than Torts yelling at McDonagh for scoring a goal.

Plus, fact of the matter is, Glass is not an NHL player if he changed his name to NHL, Player. He shouldn't have been called up and he shouldn't have played in the playoffs.

It was game 2 of the Montreal series that we lost when everyone questioned Vigneault's usage of Staal-Holden in the final minutes and we died by it in the end over and over and over again. All the leads we blew because Staal-Holden kept getting minutes. It still ****ing irritates the **** out of me. I'm not sure how you can possibly think Vigneault will play his best players when he's played Tanner Glass over an entire NHL roster in the past. Stempniak is perpetually pissed off over being scratched for Glass that he scores against us every single game.

Summary: AV sucks and doesn't know how to deploy his team when it's important. I hope that he had an exit interview with JG explain his rationale. Prob not.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Seems to me like there's less evidence for what you're arguing and more for the opposite. Glass was sent down vs. played in the playoffs and remained with the team after AV talked to Gorton about bringing him up. Brady has 1 below average game in the playoffs out of 12, was one of the top performers in the playoffs but his benching was justified even though that poor game came at the very end? Staal was the worst Ranger on the ice and was never benched. Brady's worst game is better than any of Staal of Holden's 12 games. Vigneault's pathetic "lost Skjei-Smith on the bench" for the final 17 minutes of the 2 goal lead we blew gives you confidence that Vigneault play his best players? Skjei came off the ice after scoring a massive insurance goal and was benched. His 2nd goal that night with Smith who was playing great two way hockey. That's worst than Torts yelling at McDonagh for scoring a goal.

It was game 2 of the Montreal series that we lost when everyone questioned Vigneault's usage of Staal-Holden in the final minutes and we died by it in the end over and over and over again. All the leads we blew because Staal-Holden kept getting minutes. It still ****ing irritates the **** out of me. I'm not sure how you can possibly think Vigneault will play his best players when he's played Tanner Glass over an entire NHL roster in the past. Stempniak is perpetually pissed off over being scratched for Glass that he scores against us every single game.

How many regular season games did Glass play for us last season?

We do not know who was behind calling him up but we do know he was only called up after Steve Ott chased JT Miller for the last 30 seconds of a game and nobody came to help. Then we got in to a physical series with the Habs and Glass played in 7 of our 12 playoff games. He scored 4 points in those 7 games. I did not want Glass on the team but there were some legit reasons why he played in 7 of our 12 playoff games. People said AV would never send him down to the minors last summer. I tried to point out then that he had already done so previously and he would again. Glass then spent almost all year in Hartford despite the fears. I do not think AV is going to risk his own job to play Staal or Glass next season without any reason. If Staal is even on the team he will have to earn his spot. If he is out played he will be demoted.

 

[Doctyl]

Tanner playing in 11 of 82 regular sesson games last season then in 7 of 12 playoffs is not what people were saying would happen last summer. Tanner was only called up after JT Miller was chased around the rink with no help late in the season.

Staal may or may not be a Ranger next season. Staal may or may not play for us next season. People fear the worst but at this point those are just fears in my opinion. I do not think AV will purposely play Staal all season long if other guys play better. It isn't in his own best interest.

Tanner playing over Buch is exactly what everyone was afraid of.

Girardi played on the top pair despite sucking for years. I see a McD-Shattenkirk pair just as likely as a Staal-McD pair.

 

[Doctyl]

How many regular season games did Glass play for us last season?

We do not know who was behind calling him up but we do know he was only called up after Steve Ott chased JT Miller for the last 30 seconds of a game and nobody came to help. Then we got in to a physical series with the Habs and Glass played in 7 of our 12 playoff games. He scored 4 points in those 7 games. I did not want Glass on the team but there were some legit reasons why he played in 7 of our 12 playoff games. People said AV would never send him down to the minors last summer. I tried to point out then that he had already done so previously and he would again. Glass then spent almost all year in Hartford despite the fears. I do not think AV is going to risk his own job to play Staal or Glass next season without any reason. If Staal is even on the team he will have to earn his spot. If he is out played he will be demoted.

Infinitely too many.

Oh for ****s sake of course it was AV. Gorton spent the whole offseason burying him behind forwards. There is no legitimate reason for Tanner Glass ever playing an NHL game. Staal does not have to earn his spot. When has a vet ever had to earn their spot in this organization?

 

[Overcast]

How many regular season games did Glass play for us last season?

We do not know who was behind calling him up but we do know he was only called up after Steve Ott chased JT Miller for the last 30 seconds of a game and nobody came to help. Then we got in to a physical series with the Habs and Glass played in 7 of our 12 playoff games. He scored 4 points in those 7 games. I did not want Glass on the team but there were some legit reasons why he played in 7 of our 12 playoff games. People said AV would never send him down to the minors last summer. I tried to point out then that he had already done so previously and he would again. Glass then spent almost all year in Hartford despite the fears. I do not think AV is going to risk his own job to play Staal or Glass next season without any reason. If Staal is even on the team he will have to earn his spot. If he is out played he will be demoted.

16 regular season games, which is 16 too many in my book. If we're not sure who called him up, how can we be sure it was AV that spearheaded having Glass sent down? If I was a betting man, I'd sure as hell bet that AV was fighting his heart out to keep Glass on the opening night roster.

Also the Ott-Miller situation was so overblown. I can understand the rationale behind wanting someone suited up to "deter" guys like Ott (despite it being THEIR job to do what they do, and I really don't think a guy like Glass is the one to make the opponent go "Oh man, I better not unless I want to answer to him.."), but beyond that..I see no selling points on having Glass on a playoff lineup. Sure, he played well during these past playoffs (which was FAR from a given), but those ~7 good games he played were the anomaly, not indicative of Glass' typical play.

 

[Boruto]

How many regular season games did Glass play for us last season?

We do not know who was behind calling him up but we do know he was only called up after Steve Ott chased JT Miller for the last 30 seconds of a game and nobody came to help. Then we got in to a physical series with the Habs and Glass played in 7 of our 12 playoff games. He scored 4 points in those 7 games. I did not want Glass on the team but there were some legit reasons why he played in 7 of our 12 playoff games. People said AV would never send him down to the minors last summer. I tried to point out then that he had already done so previously and he would again. Glass then spent almost all year in Hartford despite the fears. I do not think AV is going to risk his own job to play Staal or Glass next season without any reason. If Staal is even on the team he will have to earn his spot. If he is out played he will be demoted.

Vigneault himself said that he caught Gorton prior to Gorton leaving for the GM meetings and asked for Glass to be called up. Your point about Glass being sent down isn't the point. If Glass was never recalled, perhaps we can make a point about AV stepping away from his favorites and playing the best player available but he was recalled despite being a AHL calibre player. A serial arsonist doesn't get rehabilitation brownie points in court for not burning houses and businesses down between September 2016 to February 2017 if he burns one down in March.

Vets haven't had to earn their spots on this team for a long long time. A struggling Girardi was handed top pairing minutes with McDonagh. A catastrophic pairing of Staal-Holden faced almost no accountability in the playoffs. Holden made a terrible pinch in the Ottawa series in OT that lost us the game but never received the benching that Skjei received for scoring two goals.

You could be right, Staal might have to earn his spot on the team next year and the fears might not be actualized but there's less evidence supporting this than evidence going against this. Staal having to play on the third pair with reduced minutes is already a gift from above with AV behind the bench. To expect Staal to have to earn his spot along side Bereglazov, Pionk, and ADA? No chance. He has enough veteran points to earn him the 3LD spot at worse plus a free large McCafe. What happened with Girardi's predicament of having to earn his spot/handle reduced minutes? Lasted for 1 game in November despite having an injury that should have been rested but AV didn't want to play Clendening.

 

[NickyFotiu]

16 regular season games, which is 16 too many in my book. If we're not sure who called him up, how can we be sure it was AV that spearheaded having Glass sent down? If I was a betting man, I'd sure as hell bet that AV was fighting his heart out to keep Glass on the opening night roster.

Also the Ott-Miller situation was so overblown. I can understand the rationale behind wanting someone suited up to "deter" guys like Ott (despite it being THEIR job to do what they do, and I really don't think a guy like Glass is the one to make the opponent go "Oh man, I better not unless I want to answer to him.."), but beyond that..I see no selling points on having Glass on a playoff lineup. Sure, he played well during these past playoffs (which was FAR from a given), but those ~7 good games he played were the anomaly, not indicative of Glass' typical play.

I think Glass actually only played in 11 regular season games for us last season.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I think Glass actually only played in 11 regular season games for us last season.

Correct. 11 regular season and 7 playoff games

 

[THE BIG WHISTLE]

Why is expert testimony in court being analogized to whether or not you believe a coach influenced a players on-ice performance and plus/minus correlation?...

Because it's the summer.

This thread has to be one of the most boring threads I've ever read through. I can't believe I'm saying this but at least Bern tries to be fun and creative. Instead of just arguing about players stats who aren't even on NYR.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Vigneault himself said that he caught Gorton prior to Gorton leaving for the GM meetings and asked for Glass to be called up. Your point about Glass being sent down isn't the point. If Glass was never recalled, perhaps we can make a point about AV stepping away from his favorites and playing the best player available but he was recalled despite being a AHL calibre player. A serial arsonist doesn't get rehabilitation brownie points in court for not burning houses and businesses down between September 2016 to February 2017 if he burns one down in March.

Vets haven't had to earn their spots on this team for a long long time. A struggling Girardi was handed top pairing minutes with McDonagh. A catastrophic pairing of Staal-Holden faced almost no accountability in the playoffs. Holden made a terrible pinch in the Ottawa series in OT that lost us the game but never received the benching that Skjei received for scoring two goals.

You could be right, Staal might have to earn his spot on the team next year and the fears might not be actualized but there's less evidence supporting this than evidence going against this. Staal having to play on the third pair with reduced minutes is already a gift from above with AV behind the bench. To expect Staal to have to earn his spot along side Bereglazov, Pionk, and ADA? No chance. He has enough veteran points to earn him the 3LD spot at worse plus a free large McCafe. What happened with Girardi's predicament of having to earn his spot/handle reduced minutes? Lasted for 1 game in November despite having an injury that should have been rested but AV didn't want to play Clendening.

There are places on this board where perception does not meet reality. People on HF often say Girardi was handed top pairing minutes last season. AV didn't have any good RH Dmen last season but that still was not true. In reality I think Girardi played less minutes per game than McD, Holden, Staal, Smith, etc. That is 4 LH Dmen that all played more minutes per game than Girardi last season. In fact despite Brady being a rookie with McD ahead of him I think he probably played close to Girardi's minutes per game in the second half of last season.

If Staal is a disaster AV will not want him to play if we have guys that are better than him. Will our management try to get him to play to make a trade? Maybe but AV is a coach that knows if he doesn't win he will not stay. He is not going to purposefully lose games because he likes Staal.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Correct. 11 regular season and 7 playoff games

Those 11 games were way less than feared on HF last summer. I remember saying Glass would be sent down and more than a few people on HF saying AV would never send Glass down. I then had to remind them that Glass was just sent down the season beforehand.

If we were not a very soft team it probably would have been 0 and 0.

 

[THE BIG WHISTLE]

There were some games that Glass absolutely deserved to play over Buch and vice versa.

AV isn't dumb. He's no different than any other coach in the NHL. Every player earns a spot on every team.

 

[THE BIG WHISTLE]

Those 11 games were way less than feared on HF last summer. I remember saying Glass would be sent down and more than a few people on HF saying AV would never send Glass down. I then had to remind them that Glass was just sent down the season beforehand.

If we were not a very soft team it probably would have been 0 and 0.

And by the way people of HFNYR. He means mentally soft. Not skating hard not Forechecking hard etc. Soft plays.

 

[NickyFotiu]

The irony of this Staal discussion is last summer I kept pushing for us to trade him and kept hearing how he would be much better after a full offseason to rest/heal. If we can trade him we will but his play/contract make that hard. 50% retained will help but its 4 years another team would have to commit to while taking Staal. That is a big commitment.

 

[NickyFotiu]

And by the way people of HFNYR. He means mentally soft. Not skating hard not Forechecking hard etc. Soft plays.

That played a role for sure. Truth is guys like Doogs and Maloney were pushing for Glass for a month. They saw teams game planning to intimidate us. The game vs MTL was just the breaking point.

https://streamable.com/olzpm

 

[egelband]

Is Ruff a good bench manager?

 

[SA16]

Might be the worst

 

[Ola]

Vigneault himself said that he caught Gorton prior to Gorton leaving for the GM meetings and asked for Glass to be called up. Your point about Glass being sent down isn't the point. If Glass was never recalled, perhaps we can make a point about AV stepping away from his favorites and playing the best player available but he was recalled despite being a AHL calibre player. A serial arsonist doesn't get rehabilitation brownie points in court for not burning houses and businesses down between September 2016 to February 2017 if he burns one down in March.

Vets haven't had to earn their spots on this team for a long long time. A struggling Girardi was handed top pairing minutes with McDonagh. A catastrophic pairing of Staal-Holden faced almost no accountability in the playoffs. Holden made a terrible pinch in the Ottawa series in OT that lost us the game but never received the benching that Skjei received for scoring two goals.

You could be right, Staal might have to earn his spot on the team next year and the fears might not be actualized but there's less evidence supporting this than evidence going against this. Staal having to play on the third pair with reduced minutes is already a gift from above with AV behind the bench. To expect Staal to have to earn his spot along side Bereglazov, Pionk, and ADA? No chance. He has enough veteran points to earn him the 3LD spot at worse plus a free large McCafe. What happened with Girardi's predicament of having to earn his spot/handle reduced minutes? Lasted for 1 game in November despite having an injury that should have been rested but AV didn't want to play Clendening.

I think the notion that vets don't have to prove themselves is a result of a ton of confirmation bias.

Like Chris Kreider has gotten a ton of PP shifts over Rich Nash the last years despite not performing either. How many coaches in this league would have chosen the kid over the vet in those situations? Yet the same people that trash AV for playing vets never even take notice of something like that. Hayes especially during the first half of his rookie season was downright a disaster at times, still he was kept up and played in the NHL. Someone like Jooris can play well, but Lindberg gets the job. Fast has played over plenty of vet depth, Glass among others.

If you ask people here Girardi is the worst player in hockey. Why does he play then? The only explanation must be that AV loves vets and hates kids. G was on the market for like a week before he got a multi year 3m contract. On these issues, I think many in general has a good take on things -- but they then blow everything out of proportion. Girardi sucks, I have never been a fan. I was so annoyed when everyone loved him and hated all other Ds some 10 years ago. But believe me, there are so many Ds in this league with huuuuuge issues. So many. G is a great shot blocker and has tremendous attitude. He is a right hand shot and even if there are issues you can certainly be a lot worse defensively. Hence many teams pursued him when he hit the market and he got a great contract. The thinking that Girardi is the worst at hockey in the universe and hence him playing over nobody else on our RD depth chart isn't even strange and the entire argument that AV loves vets falls dead flat. Especially since AV has a 100% record and have done a great job with every single kid cept McIlrath -- de facto.

 

[Boruto]

I think the notion that vets don't have to prove themselves is a result of a ton of confirmation bias.

Like Chris Kreider has gotten a ton of PP shifts over Rich Nash the last years despite not performing either. How many coaches in this league would have chosen the kid over the vet in those situations? Yet the same people that trash AV for playing vets never even take notice of something like that. Hayes especially during the first half of his rookie season was downright a disaster at times, still he was kept up and played in the NHL. Someone like Jooris can play well, but Lindberg gets the job. Fast has played over plenty of vet depth, Glass among others.

If you ask people here Girardi is the worst player in hockey. Why does he play then? The only explanation must be that AV loves vets and hates kids. G was on the market for like a week before he got a multi year 3m contract. On these issues, I think many in general has a good take on things -- but they then blow everything out of proportion. Girardi sucks, I have never been a fan. I was so annoyed when everyone loved him and hated all other Ds some 10 years ago. But believe me, there are so many Ds in this league with huuuuuge issues. So many. G is a great shot blocker and has tremendous attitude. He is a right hand shot and even if there are issues you can certainly be a lot worse defensively. Hence many teams pursued him when he hit the market and he got a great contract. The thinking that Girardi is the worst at hockey in the universe and hence him playing over nobody else on our RD depth chart isn't even strange and the entire argument that AV loves vets falls dead flat. Especially since AV has a 100% record and have done a great job with every single kid cept McIlrath -- de facto.

With regards to the first paragraph, Kreider deserves the power play time with the skill set that he has. Arniel or AV needs to stop sticking Rick Nash net front and nowhere else too. With Hayes and Vesey, the situation is a bit different. UFA college players that were hot commodities signed here with the basic understanding during the negotiation process that they would be kept in the NHL and given more latitude and ice time. I believe that was the case with both Hayes and Vesey. Lindberg and Fast over Jooris/Glass/handful of other vets are cases where Lindberg and Fast deserved the ice time and the roles as young, cheap, versatile, promising bottom 6 players.

As for Girardi, if the only tangible thing he's good at is blocking shots and a great attitude as many have pointed out as his greatest strengths, then he's not really a well rounded NHL defenseman anymore. You hated the contract that was given to Girardi a few years ago in all likelihood and I think Tampa is going to hate that signing more than we hate his 6X5.5. We know that he failed to defend, skate, outlet pucks, or add offense. He's at the bottom tier of NHL defensemen now where it doesn't matter if you failed with a score of 49.2% or if you failed with 13.2%.

I don't think AV has done a great job with the kids that's played here. A lot of the success has to be attributed to the qualities of the players themselves. Quality players become NHL regulars because they're quality players. Credit to the coach has to be assessed some other way. Vigneault scratched Fast on multiple occasions for Glass during Fast's first 100+ games. He was the odd man out on many occasions. I believe Jesper has an offensive skill set and a bit more potential that hasn't been fully realized yet. I wouldn't say Lindberg excelled under Vigneault either. Buchnevich certainly didn't benefit from Vigneault, no sense of role or place on team, not latitude for a talented offensive prospect, lots of 4th line <10m ice time. Skjei was our 2nd best defenseman last year starting in December and he didn't get the benefit of the doubt or the 2LD role he more than deserved and was punished and benched to the detriment of the team. Clendening was an option on the right side with a terrible garbage depth of Girardi-Holden-injured Klein but he was never given a fair shot. Miller struggled for 2 full years before breaking out in stretches this past season. Hayes had a mediocre start to his career until this year as well. Vesey wasn't tremendous in his rookie season. Moore/Del Zotto couldn't find a 3rd pairing job under AV but went on to be decent elsewhere. Not to say this is AV's fault but I wouldn't say AV is great with the kids just because they made it as regular NHLers. The path wasn't easy and the results aren't anything special.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Offtopic but I guess Dolan really is a hands off owner. I just read Dolan has never even met the Knicks new GM that they announced last Monday.

 

[NYR]

I’m not an AV fan by any stretch but it’s certainly not because of him putting Glass in the line up in the playoffs.
My issue with him is that he’s just not capable of countering another coaches strategy to win the game in front of him and/or more importantly adjusting the system to fit the players on the ice.

After the Ott situation, any competent coach would’ve dressed Glass.
He got 4 points in 7 games.
It was a move that absolutely had to be made.
Are we really still talking about this?
Loong summer indeed.