Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXVII: Lot’s of Fools in April

[Edge]

It's definitely a risky move and I'm not 100% sold on it. Here is the question I keep coming back to and why I find the idea of trading for Eichel hard to dismiss: Is our contention window in Zibanejad's prime years or after them?

It probably depends on how Zibanejad ages and whether he's "close enough to prime".

With high-end talent elsewhere on the roster, we might need a "prime" Zibanejad, so much as we'll need him to still be a first line center.

With Eichel, you're getting the superior player. But what's the cost? (Chytil, Kakko, etc.)

And then, what are the follow-up moves? (Moving Zibanejad, moving Buch, still hunting for a second line center...and probably a third line center, etc.)

My concern with Eichel is that depending on the cost, you end with these aftershocks that completely change the dynamic of what we've been building. But again, it does depend on the cost.

 

[TheDirtyH]

It probably depends on how Zibanejad ages and whether he's "close enough to prime".

With high-end talent elsewhere on the roster, we might need a "prime" Zibanejad, so much as we'll need him to still be a first line center.

With Eichel, you're getting the superior player. But what's the cost? (Chytil, Kakko, etc.)

And then, what are the follow-up moves? (Moving Zibanejad, moving Buch, still hunting for a second line center...and probably a third line center, etc.)

My concern with Eichel is that depending on the cost, you end with these aftershocks that completely change the dynamic of what we've been building. But again, it does depend on the cost.

To me, this is also part of the frustration with Chytil being stapled to line three and never playing minutes with Panarin. The Rangers are only accelerating towards huge decisions at the center ice position that, for all the reasoning you've laid out here and elsewhere, could very well come to define this entire rebuild. Yet, they haven't done enough to see what they actually have in Filip Chytil--a huge part of this huge decision.

If Chtyil lands more like a 2/3 than a 2 or 1b, but his strengths prove to be complimentary with Panarin, that's really critical information to have...

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I think the value would be in the years each could likely score points like that. Imo Strome has 2-3 left max while Eichel likely has a lot more. Not sold on trading for him really but that’s the value in theory

I never thought Strome was a permanent solution, but after seeing what he's done these last three years, and the chemistry he has with Panarin, I don't know if Eichel is better than having Strome and Zib, with maybe Chytil shifting to the wing. At the very least, I'd pass on Eichel and give up less assets to go out and get a cheaper 2nd line center.

 

[rangers1314]

It probably depends on how Zibanejad ages and whether he's "close enough to prime".

With high-end talent elsewhere on the roster, we might need a "prime" Zibanejad, so much as we'll need him to still be a first line center.

With Eichel, you're getting the superior player. But what's the cost? (Chytil, Kakko, etc.)

And then, what are the follow-up moves? (Moving Zibanejad, moving Buch, still hunting for a second line center...and probably a third line center, etc.)

My concern with Eichel is that depending on the cost, you end with these aftershocks that completely change the dynamic of what we've been building. But again, it does depend on the cost.

There is also the concern that @BBKers has been quite resolute in his opinion that Eichel is just "not the type of guy" you want around your team, let alone leading it.

I wouldn't ask for specific examples but there certainly seems to be legit personality/character concerns coming from someone who has knowledge of the player from what I assume are trustworthy sources.

 

[RGY]

Delete

 

[DanielBrassard]

Could the Rangers maybe look into packaging Hajek and Howden to upgrade that left D spot for a player that a team wont be able to protect this summer? Like Carson Soucy?

I wouldn't. Soucy isn't great to begin with and his cap hit is relatively high in the flat cap environment. You can find better players for league minimum than Hajek in FA.

 

[Fitzy]

To me, this is also part of the frustration with Chytil being stapled to line three and never playing minutes with Panarin. The Rangers are only accelerating towards huge decisions at the center ice position that, for all the reasoning you've laid out here and elsewhere, could very well come to define this entire rebuild. Yet, they haven't done enough to see what they actually have in Filip Chytil--a huge part of this huge decision.

If Chtyil lands more like a 2/3 than a 2 or 1b, but his strengths prove to be complimentary with Panarin, that's really critical information to have...

Yeah but Chytil has been poor since his return. You've got to prove that you've earned those minutes.

I know his hand is probably still bugging him, but he's got to find a way to play a little better through that discomfort.

And the decision IMO will be about Zibby, not Chytil. If NYR go the Eichel route, there is a 99% chance they then trade Zibanejad. It's one or the other. The 2C decision is Strome v Chytil, and that can wait a bit longer since Strome's return wouldn't be as important as Zibby's

Edit: Also, if they traded for Eichel they'd probably name him the de facto captain and leader of the band. Do not want that AT ALL. Build our leadership group from within.

 

[Edge]

There is also the concern that @BBKers has been quite resolute in his opinion that Eichel is just "not the type of guy" you want around your team, let alone leading it.

I wouldn't ask for specific examples but there certainly seems to be legit personality/character concerns coming from someone who has knowledge of the player from what I assume are trustworthy sources.

And I will tell you that he's not necessarily alone in that thinking. I've heard that rumbling elsewhere, and while it's not inherently the defining narrative out there, it's not isolated either.

Even moving away from those beliefs for a second, we have no idea how Eichel would do in a playoff run either. There's no indication that he's a guy who puts the team on his back and can carry it, or whether he's a guy that causes endless debates come spring time.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

For better or worse, their greatest strength up front will be on the wing. Trading for Eichel is going to leave too many other holes to fill with much less flexibility to do it.

 

[SA16]

I'd probably look first for a similar profile (Big RW, young) who plays a different game. More physical, better defensively.

Lucic?

 

[Kodiak]

It probably depends on how Zibanejad ages and whether he's "close enough to prime".

With high-end talent elsewhere on the roster, we might need a "prime" Zibanejad, so much as we'll need him to still be a first line center.

With Eichel, you're getting the superior player. But what's the cost? (Chytil, Kakko, etc.)

And then, what are the follow-up moves? (Moving Zibanejad, moving Buch, still hunting for a second line center...and probably a third line center, etc.)

My concern with Eichel is that depending on the cost, you end with these aftershocks that completely change the dynamic of what we've been building. But again, it does depend on the cost.

The cost is the key. I wouldn't want to see Kakko or Lafreniere in the deal. I'd try to hold Chytil out of it if possible as that opens a hole at C. If there is a deal to be had that centers around guys like Buchnevich, Kravtsov, and Lundkvist, then we have the depth to make that kind of deal without opening a big hole in the lineup. But what is an acceptable deal for Buffalo's front office? It depends on how much of an issue Eichel is and how many other teams are willing to part with assets and take on the cap hit.

 

[Peltz]

Would Buffalo be as bad as they are if Eichel had a different temperament? Maybe yes maybe no.

Having your captain ask for a trade probably isn’t a good sign, no matter the incompetence around him. I’m not blaming him, and I don’t know what he’s really like, but I also know we have Panarin on that second line who has proven he doesn’t necessarily need elite line mates to have a game breaking impact.

 

[Edge]

For better or worse, their greatest strength up front will be on the wing. Trading for Eichel is going to leave too many other holes to fill with much less flexibility to do it.

Right now, I feel like our team is shaping up to have elite wings, a dangerous defense, and great goaltending. That means we probably won't have elite centers up and down the lineup.

But, if everything more or less comes together, we might not need to.

If we can have centers who can play their roles on their respective lines, and do it well (but maybe not elite per se), I think we'll be in business.

So I'm hesitant to make too sharp of a turn when, as you said, for better or worse, we're going down a clear path.

 

[haveandare]

I never thought Strome was a permanent solution, but after seeing what he's done these last three years, and the chemistry he has with Panarin, I don't know if Eichel is better than having Strome and Zib, with maybe Chytil shifting to the wing. At the very least, I'd pass on Eichel and give up less assets to go out and get a cheaper 2nd line center.

I mostly agree but it totally depends on term with Strome. I don’t expect him to fall off a cliff or anything but I’m also very skeptical of this not being his absolute peak right now. Also I wouldn’t move Chytil to wing if we ride with Mika and Strome, we need future centers badly and he’s showing he can be one.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Yeah but Chytil has been poor since his return. You've got to prove that you've earned those minutes.

I know his hand is probably still bugging him, but he's got to find a way to play a little better through that discomfort.

And the decision IMO will be about Zibby, not Chytil. If NYR go the Eichel route, there is a 99% chance they then trade Zibanejad. It's one or the other. The 2C decision is Strome v Chytil, and that can wait a bit longer since Strome's return wouldn't be as important as Zibby's

He's been about what he's been every year, albeit with slighter higher peaks and higher valleys year over year. He's 21, that's about what I'd expect from him and am content with it.

As far as the center ice position goes, Chytil is a critical part of determining the future. As of this moment he's the only center we have that looks to have at least top 9 potential in our system (the far away hopes of Henriksson notwithstanding) that will be under 28 years old next season. Not to mention that a trade for Jack Eichel would more likely than not include him as a part of it. Chytil fits a certain timeline not only with his age and potential, but especially as a cost-controllable asset. Strome and Zibanejad will both be negotiating as UFAs with 2+ seasons near or past a ppg under their belts.

I'm not condemning Quinn or management on not playing Chytil with Panarin, but I do think it's a valid criticism for the sake of wasting an opportunity to get more information for themselves. And it's really not true that Chytil isn't a huge factor in determining how our roster will look down the middle for maybe the next decade.

 

[Peltz]

Right now, I feel like our team is shaping up to have elite wings, a dangerous defense, and great goaltending. That means we probably won't have elite centers up and down the lineup.

But, if everything more or less comes together, we might not need to.

If we can have centers who can play their roles on their respective lines, and do it well (but maybe not elite per se), I think we'll be in business.

So I'm hesitant to make too sharp of a turn when, as you said, for better or worse we're going down a clear path.

Exactly. There’s more than one way to structure a team. Not everyone needs to be the Penguins.

Heck, the last cup winner was missing their 1C for nearly all if the playoffs (Stamkos).

 

[MarkMessyay11]

It probably depends on how Zibanejad ages and whether he's "close enough to prime".

With high-end talent elsewhere on the roster, we might need a "prime" Zibanejad, so much as we'll need him to still be a first line center.

With Eichel, you're getting the superior player. But what's the cost? (Chytil, Kakko, etc.)

And then, what are the follow-up moves? (Moving Zibanejad, moving Buch, still hunting for a second line center...and probably a third line center, etc.)

My concern with Eichel is that depending on the cost, you end with these aftershocks that completely change the dynamic of what we've been building. But again, it does depend on the cost.

I admit, I got caught up in the notion of adding a player like Eichel when the rumors first started. But now that the fire has cooled off a bit and I've read varying opinions on this board and elsewhere, I'm starting to wonder at what point does the cost outweigh the benefit? Even if we can absorb the cost from an asset perspective, the ripple effect on our cap situation is likely going to be ugly. And vice versa.

Eichel aside, the other major concern is that our top 2 centers are both going to be 29 years old when it comes time to re-up their contracts. Maybe the flat cap situation helps us when it comes to AAV, but it's a really challenging decision to sign your top 2 C's to long-term extensions when they're both pushing 30 and you have younger, high-end talent due for serious pay raises during the term of those contracts. Chytil taking another step forward into a 2C role next year will help them come to terms with cutting ties with one of them, but that's no guarantee. Even if that happens, do you still hand Zibanejad a high 7 or low 8-figure AAV that takes him well into his 30s? Or do you move on from him and roll with a combo of Stome/Chytil/trade or UFA?

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

For the right cost, Eichel makes a ton of sense. Yes it likely means moving Zibanejad and finding a way to backfill not 1 but likely 2 NHL centers (assuming Chytil is part of Eichel package). But having an elite 1C locked up through his prime at a fair, if high, cap hit is obviously great from a team building perspective.

A generic statement but bear with me - the decision IMO comes down to what the NYR see as the best path to build their team moving forward and how they feel about Zibanejad's next contract. If they believe they already have high end Cup caliber talent in house, albeit on the wings and on D, and they feel Zibanejad will age decently enough to be a competent first line C with elite wings, and that they can re-up him for I don't know...~$8M give or take...then maybe the best path is to keep him. Protect the org depth.

If they have real concerns about his next deal becoming a boat anchor due to health/performance aging, and/or any doubts that they will have the elite wingers that makes up for a less than ideal 1C...then a deal for Eichel (and/or Barkov depending on what happens there) makes a lot more sense. And they may be more willing to include more in the trade package.

There are so many moving parts on trying to guess if the NYR will or should be in on Eichel. How will Zibanejad age, what will his next contract be, can they get a key center for Buch, how do they peg the odds of Lafreniere/Kakko becoming the elite Cup caliber wingers we expect them to be, etc. The decision on these things will likely go a long way to determining if the NYR win a Cup in this window. High stakes.

 

[Edge]

The cost is the key. I wouldn't want to see Kakko or Lafreniere in the deal. I'd try to hold Chytil out of it if possible as that opens a hole at C. If there is a deal to be had that centers around guys like Buchnevich, Kravtsov, and Lundkvist, then we have the depth to make that kind of deal without opening a big hole in the lineup. But what is an acceptable deal for Buffalo's front office? It depends on how much of an issue Eichel is and how many other teams are willing to part with assets and take on the cap hit.

And that's the challenge --- there's only so many guys we can take off the table before the deal falls apart. Already, as of earlier updates, Kakko, Lafreniere, Shesterkin, Fox and Miller were all off the table. So that leaves Kravtsov, Chytil, Lundkvist, etc.

I don't know if there's a desire for Buch, which kind of creates a challenge for the Rangers because with or without Eichel, Buch is a prime candidate to be moved. So let's say the 5 untouchables are indeed off the table. That means Kravtsov and Chytil are almost certainly part of the package going the other way. I have a difficult time envisioning any scenario in which we don't have to include them if we're keeping Lafreniere and company.

So now we have Eichel. We still have to move Zibanejad. We probably aren't committing to Strome long-term. We no longer even have Chytil as a third line option. So right off the bat, we're going to have anywhere from two to three different centers behind Eichel than we did before we acquired him.

Buch, because of his next contract, probably still gets moved (it's a distinct possibility regardless of whether we acquire Eichel or keep Zibanejad). But now we don't have Kravtsov potentially stepping up to fill that role. Now we have Kakko and maybe Gauthier? That's a big drop off.

So how do we solve that? We'd have to be clever with returns for Zibanejad and Buch. Which, to be fair, is do-able. But it also means we're talking about major upheavals to both the center and right wing position.

Depending on the cost, that's my biggest concern.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

Any interest in claiming Gusev?

 

[duhmetreE]

I'd probably look first for a similar profile (Big RW, young) who plays a different game. More physical, better defensively.

Sam Bennett you say

 

[True Blue]

I'm struggling to see how we can pay 2 #1 centers, Panarin, Kreider, Trouba, in addition to whatever Fox and Shesterkin are going to make on their next contracts, and have space to resign our other young players as they become more productive. I'd love to see a scenario where we could fit Zibanejad and Eichel without handcuffing ourselves later, but I don't see it. It's an either or scenario.

You can't possibly afford both Zibanejad and Eichel. Eichel is a wonderful player, but start factoring in 10 cost in assets to acquire him 2) cost in dollars of fitting him in under the cap & 3) cost to acquire the assets to build around him (you would have just traded some everyday assets to get him) and plug the holes created by the move, the return profile starts to look not quite as rosy. What the landscape looks like right after you hit that trade button, might not have so many greener pastures.

The other issue with Eichel is that by trading for him, you have now given yourself 4 years to win the Cup. When his contract is up, he will be 30. And the same discussions about committing long term to a 30 year old will begin.

 

[GAGLine]

Any interest in claiming Gusev?

None. Even if we had the cap space, why waste it on him? The last thing we need is another winger.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I mostly agree but it totally depends on term with Strome. I don’t expect him to fall off a cliff or anything but I’m also very skeptical of this not being his absolute peak right now. Also I wouldn’t move Chytil to wing if we ride with Mika and Strome, we need future centers badly and he’s showing he can be one.

My preference is to keep Chytil at center as well but if they keep Strome and Zib, having another monster wing wouldn't be terrible. Maybe Strome signs a 3 year deal? Would be nice but I wouldn't fault him for getting paid by another team.

Right now, I feel like our team is shaping up to have elite wings, a dangerous defense, and great goaltending. That means we probably won't have elite centers up and down the lineup.

But, if everything more or less comes together, we might not need to.

If we can have centers who can play their roles on their respective lines, and do it well (but maybe not elite per se), I think we'll be in business.

So I'm hesitant to make too sharp of a turn when, as you said, for better or worse we're going down a clear path.

I agree. If they can't win in the next few year swith Panarin, Laff, Kreider, Kakko, Buch, and say Kravtsov as their top 9 wings, with that Defense and goaltending, something wen't horribly wrong.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Any interest in claiming Gusev?

(Yet) another left wing?