Speculation: Roster Building Thread LXXXIX: Going 11-3 to close out this crazy year should do it!

[Kodiak]

If DQ goes with Jones and Bietto, that’s an all NCAA top 6

We had an all NCAA top 6 the past two games. Other than Hajek, DeAngelo, and Reunanen, all of the defensemen we've used this year are from the NCAA: Fox, Lindgren, Trouba, Miller, Smith, Bitetto, and Johnson.

 

[Avery16]

I’d take a flier on Jaskin.

 

[Fitzy]

I’d take a flier on Jaskin.

I have to think he wants to go to a team with an open spot in the top six. Seattle makes sense.

 

[jay from jersey]

I understand about young centers. That does not change the fact that they are nothing more than a speculation of a future. You keep saying that the Rangers would need to overpay to get a teenager who has never played a second of a single game at the NHL level. What does this overpay look like? We are talking about Buchevich. That has been the only player that we have been talking aobut. So you are telling me that Gorton and JD would need to add to a Buchnevich in order to land someone like Lundell. THAT is what I am calling out. I am doing that because neither you nor I know of a trade where a top-line player was traded straight up for a kid that has never stepped a toe even at the AHL level. So what, in your view would Gorton and JD would need to add to a 26 year (whose birthday is not until mid-April of next year) two way playing, 60ish point (who this year is trending to over 70 points) top line wing in order to land a kid whose chances of every hitting such offensive numbers are low?

Yes that’s exactly what I’m saying. I don’t think they would have to add to buch, but they surely are not trading their best rated center prospect plus a first for Buch. In this instance, as good as buch has been this year, Using Fla as the prime example, they would most certainly not deal Lundell for Buch. Talent on the wings is just much easier to come by then at center. Obviously Buch has proved more, but teams do not deal young centers on ELC unless it is an overpay. If they did, we would see more trades. Same with Colorado. Kreider would have certainly helped them more then Newhook for the immediate future. They chose to not risk their cheap talent down the middle without a substantial overpay. It’s not conjecture to say there are more instances of established wingers being traded for picks or prospects that have not played a game then there are instances of young centers being dealt. That’s because one is substantially harder to find then the other. Rangers may get lucky and find a team like the kings with a glut of center prospects, but do not be surprised if we have to move the higher end piece at a different position to acquire the guy. It’s just a case of rarity.

 

[jay from jersey]

Yeah I agree.

Fiala for Granlund was another one involving Nashville but on the wrong end this time.

I mentioned Conor Garland before the deadline as maybe a target as a guy who can play multiple lines and is going to be going onto their second contract as opposed to their thurd contract like Buchnevich is. If Buchnevich is moved it’s probably going to be for economics, and if Buchnevich is traded, the Rangers will need a wing to replace him too. It’s a bit sticky.

That’s also the way I see it. With Kreids and panarin on the books, the progress of LaF kakko and now Kravtsov in the fold I can’t see the rangers wanting stop speed considerable multi year dollars on another winger. It sucks but I think they look at buch as a solid asset they can deal whose going to be a victim of the numbers game. I’d imagine the right side will look something like kakko, Kravtsov, Blackwell or cheaper Veteran on a 2yr deal and maybe a rookie or guy like PDG, a journeymen so to speak on 4th line duties. I think a package of Buch+ lundkvist or Buch + Chytil or Buch + 1st returns a young center with some experience. Someone in the Dvorak , lindholm mold so to speak. I can see that being more likely then a straight up 1 for 1 on a prospect that has yet to debut with their current club.
I also expect them to play the wait and see game with strome and Zibby til it gets closer to next years deadline before a final decision is made on both

 

[DudMan28]

I'm hesitant to just throw Jones in the deep end. I understand that Trouba is out, but up until a few weeks ago it was pretty well agreed upon he could use another year in the NCAA. I'm not sold a few good tourney games all of a sudden makes him NHL ready.

I don't think a game here or there hurts him in the long run, but it's not as simple a decision for me. I'd rather give Reunanen an extended look than just throwing Jones out there.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Hoping they put in Geo tomorrow night since I'm going to the game on Friday and would rather see igor

 

[Zats Muccarello]

I'm hesitant to just throw Jones in the deep end. I understand that Trouba is out, but up until a few weeks ago it was pretty well agreed upon he could use another year in the NCAA. I'm not sold a few good tourney games all of a sudden makes him NHL ready.

I don't think a game here or there hurts him in the long run, but it's not as simple a decision for me. I'd rather give Reunanen an extended look than just throwing Jones out there.

It’s not like we are making the playoffs and a year of Jones’ ELC is gonna be burned regardless. May as well give him a look.

 

[DudMan28]

It’s not like we are making the playoffs and a year of Jones’ ELC is gonna be burned regardless. May as well give him a look.

Yeah, I'm not concerned with us winning/losing because of him. More about if he's ready and not rushing him into a game because we have no others to play.

 

[Ola]

I know it's a totally different era, but I do wonder sometimes if the young guys and even some of the older finesse guys would benefit from having a Matt Martin type in the bottom 6. A protective older brother type who can send a message. It's not so much about fighting, it's about giving the offensive guys more confidence to play inside.

As I've said before this team very much so reminds me of the Czechmates era. I think this team has more skill, far more emerging talent -- but they play that outside finesse style that those teams played. And it's not a recipe for success.

The issue is -- we have tons of skilled guys both on the team and coming in the next year or two -- we need as many spots as possible to see which skilled guys to keep and which to move. So, unless Gorton plans on making bets before he knows what he has in his own hand - I don't think the finesse vs jam will be solvable for another season. That's why I wonder if we sacrifice one forward spot to a vet who can intimidate. You can't solve this issue with one player. It's a bigger team-wide issue to work out. I just don't think we're there yet and maybe a band-aid isn't the worst idea for next year.

The big problem I have is, this have never and can never be a "copy cat league".

You must have your identity. I think we are really soft too and I've been talking about that for a long time, (half) joking about Curtis Lazar and the likes. But we are also a very big team up front. The Champs got 2 forwards taller than 6'1 and we got what 8-9?

But the important thing is -- no matter what weakness you have, there have never been a team that won a Cup doing things exactly how someone else did it. We are definitely not STL. We are not Washington. We are not Tampa. But at the same time -- look how different those teams are compared to each other? And if we go further and look at the teams beat in the finals. Dallas for example, darn a bunch of plus 30 over the hill vets up front lol.

So what is my point with this? No matter what, you just must play the hand you are dealt. We must play to our strengths. Embrace what we do well.

But that alone of course won't win you a cup, or make you a true contender. The POs takes grinding and we need to add more of that, no doubt. But if you look at the roster we have, the only legit question should be -- what can we do better than everyone else? That is what we should embrace. If over passing and playing finesse hockey is your answer, well there you go. You only got one chance to win a Cup, and that is to make just that work. And when making it work, sure that includes rounding out the roster. Making the team adjust. But that is fine tuning. Tampa fine tuned by getting Maroon and Goodrow. They didn't change identity. Washington fine tuned under Trotz. STL just filled out (and won many many close games and series that could have gone either way).

We have many players that moves the puck really well. We should definitely try to use that as a strength. But when we fail to do it well enough -- we have a coach that tries everything and anything to get us away from that style, instead of seing just how extremely much room for improvement we have in these areas. Detroit won many Cups during the trapping era playing that style -- something that should have been impossible. Then it was said, but they have Yzerman, Federov, Larionov and co, nobody have the talent to do what they did. Then they did it again, this time lead by a 7th round pick in Zetterberg, what a 5th round pick in Datsyuk, an undrafted winger in Franzen (or was he drafted? Late in any event), Holmström, Cleary and the likes. .

Sure we get into big problems making bad decisions with the puck. But seriously, with the roster we have, should we (a) stop making decisions with the puck or (b) try to make better decisions with the puck?

Here is what really have made me lose all confidence in management, because even if its not black and white -- they are so obviously trying to get us towards (a).

 

[Ola]

I get what Gorton was trying to do with DQ, get someone that could grow with the team. But the learning curve is just too steep, he isn't made of the right stuff. There is obviously a big disconnect between him and the players. There is no way around that. If you compared the loyalty of the players under say Rod Brind'Amour in Carolina and the players under DQ in NY -- we might rank 5/100 and Rod Brind'Amour maybe 90 of 100.

A big part of this that DQ just cannot sell his vision to the team. Game after game after game he sits there and whines about overpassing, the players just not getting it, stepping over non-negotiable lines and so forth and so forth and so forth. We were extremely flat against NJ at a tremendously important make or break part of our season. The Islander game was a disaster at the same stage. Maybe its not obvious to an untrained eye, but take my word for it, this is what you get when things aren't right in the lockerroom/between coaches and players. And its super obvious things aren't right.

 

[E-Train]

Put in Jones. Call up Barron, sit Howden. Finish out the season. Flip Krav & Blackwell too.

 

[duhmetreE]

We're obviously not going to be a heavy team like the Islanders or to a lesser extent, Washington.

What's our identity?

What makes Carolina different from the Rangers? Colorado? or any of the high skill teams?

What is missing? Youth doesn't explain it considering we 'ride and die' with our Vets.

 

[Ola]

These quotes says everything:

“We just weren’t playing the way we needed to if we were going to have a chance,” head coach David Quinn said. “I thought we were sloppy, I thought we were too high risk, too east-west, and weren’t playing fast enough. Once Troubs went out, our level of play dropped even more.”

“When we score goals [as against the Devils], we tend to play the way we played tonight and sometimes get carried away with it,” Quinn said. “Against a team like this, in games like this of this magnitude, that stuff doesn’t work shift in and shift out and expect to succeed.
“We learned the hard way.”

This is a guy that doesn't want us to play the way we do. And don't make this into us on a detailed level not executing or something, these are 100% structural fundamental issues. Its not about poor execution, poor decisions. Its about whether you buy into the game plan to move the puck up ice ASAP, get it deep, not risking things more than necessary or if you try something completely different and try to beat a team like the Islanders by out manuevering them.

Right or wrong, on how we should play, the issue of mind boggling proportions is that we got a team that don't play the way the coach wants. And who are the biggest culprits? Ziba, Panarin, Buch and co. The leaders of the team. This is the worst of two worlds. The players get no support from the practices designed by the coach, the game plan, the Xs and Os. Some players will buy in more than others, resulting on the playerse not being on the same page as each other. DQ says that this works against NJD but not NYI, well we just looked like complete crap for long long stretches against NJD too and stole a win, at a tremendously important part of the season. You get to that level of crappiness when you have a team that don't buy the coaches vision.

 

[duhmetreE]

These quotes says everything:

“We just weren’t playing the way we needed to if we were going to have a chance,” head coach David Quinn said. “I thought we were sloppy, I thought we were too high risk, too east-west, and weren’t playing fast enough. Once Troubs went out, our level of play dropped even more.”

“When we score goals [as against the Devils], we tend to play the way we played tonight and sometimes get carried away with it,” Quinn said. “Against a team like this, in games like this of this magnitude, that stuff doesn’t work shift in and shift out and expect to succeed.
“We learned the hard way.”

This is a guy that doesn't want us to play the way we do. And don't make this into us on a detailed level not executing or something, these are 100% structural fundamental issues. Its not about poor execution, poor decisions. Its about whether you buy into the game plan to move the puck up ice ASAP, get it deep, not risking things more than necessary or if you try something completely different and try to beat a team like the Islanders by out manuevering them.

Right or wrong, on how we should play, the issue of mind boggling proportions is that we got a team that don't play the way the coach wants. And who are the biggest culprits? Ziba, Panarin, Buch and co. The leaders of the team. This is the worst of two worlds. The players get no support from the practices designed by the coach, the game plan, the Xs and Os. Some players will buy in more than others, resulting on the playerse not being on the same page as each other. DQ says that this works against NJD but not NYI, well we just looked like complete crap for long long stretches against NJD too and stole a win, at a tremendously important part of the season. You get to that level of crappiness when you have a team that don't buy the coaches vision.

Sounds like a something I would post...

He does not sound like someone in control. He knows he can make adjustments? Tell his players to play a certain way?

 

[PuckLuck3043]

We're obviously not going to be a heavy team like the Islanders or to a lesser extent, Washington.

What's our identity?

What makes Carolina different from the Rangers? Colorado? or any of the high skill teams?

What is missing? Youth doesn't explain it considering we 'ride and die' with our Vets.

Whats missing is time. Carolina is a few years ahead of the Rangers as far as the rebuild. It's only been 3 years since the "letter". It's still a work in progress. We need patience. Next year we add Lundkvist, Barron, Jones and Chytil, Laf, Kakko, Miller, Kravs, Shesty get another year under their belt, plus any trades that may and probably will happen. Why do we need all the answers right now?

 

[Ola]

Enough comments on DQ. Some lay of the land thoughts regarding our players.

1. Brett Howden is playing pretty good hockey for us, IMO. I don't at all agree with the trash he is getting. He is skating really well, slowly but surely moving in the right direction. I think he could use some better guiding offensively, but there is still some potential there. Good young hard working players that should be valueable for us going forward. Should have a good cost/performance ratio too given how his stats don't really match his contribution.

2. Adam Fox has simply been amazing for us. But I want to add one thing, and that is that we should not take his play for granted at this level. Many things play a part in how you perform. Our opponents have been very very predictable for Fox. The schedule hasn't been super crazy, and of course there was a long long rest before the season started. Tougher schedule, more travel, new teams, all of a sudden Fox games is a bit more up and down. He is only human too. Confidence goes up and down.

We shouldn't take anything away from his play and his potential. But for example in the perspective of for example looking at next season and predicting how much better we should be, you can't count on Fox playing at the insane levels he have this season.

3. K'Andre Miller I will break my own rule and bring in DQ in this post too, but only because I won't be crapping on him. I think its super important that Key is pushed to keep making -- too -- risky plays on the ice. Keep trying to expand his register. Not to attack some other poster, but I saw someone say something like 'I will reserve judgement another year because Key is so young, but if he keeps making dumb misstakes ....'. But that is exactly what his orders should be. If he don't make dumb mistakes he isn't trying. Its super important that he doesn't go the route like Marc Staal did and just shrink and shrink and shrink his game until there was nothing left. Vic Hedman is the best D in the league today. He has made many dumb mistakes. I think our coaching staff is doing a good job here. Hopefully they aren't pressured into getting away from that. If Key keeps making dumb mistakes 5-6 years from now, it should warrant a post, not until then.

4. Pavel Buchnevich play should be put in its right perspective, 5 on 5 he is top 15 in scoring in the league. No matter how you slice or dice that, its remarkably good. It also shows that he is doing something well, but also his linemates.

5. Kravy has certainly brouht a breath of fresh air. And it accentuate our log-jam up front. I've been crying a lot about how all kids need super strong support and sheltering to have success. But at the same time, depth (should) be a good thing.

6. Hajak/Smith/Bietto I think that its important to point out that our issue isn't either of these guys individually, becaus I clearly don't think that is the case, but its that the fact that any combination of these three so-so LDs cannot form a NHL caliber defense pairing.

No matter what, we shouldn't underestimate the negative impact on the team overall from having such a totally crappy 3rd D pairing.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

Whats missing is time. Carolina is a few years ahead of the Rangers as far as the rebuild. It's only been 3 years since the "letter". It's still a work in progress. We need patience. Next year we add Lundkvist, Barron, Jones and Chytil, Laf, Kakko, Miller, Kravs, Shesty get another year under their belt, plus any trades that may and probably will happen. Why do we need all the answers right now?

We dont need all the answers right now but these are supposed to be the foundation in which you build your franchise around. There is no identity to this team, no structure to their offense. A coach needs to implement a system something for the players to build around. We have a great one now on defense because of Martin, just wait till we have an actual 5th and 6th defenseman. But the defense and PK has NOTHING to do with Quinn. That was brought in from Martin. So while i agree next year with the progression and additions that are made should help in making our overall talent better but you need the right system to bring the best out of your players.

 

[DialUp]

Whats missing is time. Carolina is a few years ahead of the Rangers as far as the rebuild. It's only been 3 years since the "letter". It's still a work in progress. We need patience. Next year we add Lundkvist, Barron, Jones and Chytil, Laf, Kakko, Miller, Kravs, Shesty get another year under their belt, plus any trades that may and probably will happen. Why do we need all the answers right now?

Totally agreed here. Adding the rookies this year to a vet group that is proven to not be able to make the playoffs on their own should have came with tempered expectations.

5 years into a rebuild is a pretty good timeline to start having high expectations.

*Edit* Problem is, team can't coach themselves. So who knows what happens in the next 2 years.

 

[duhmetreE]

Whats missing is time. Carolina is a few years ahead of the Rangers as far as the rebuild. It's only been 3 years since the "letter". It's still a work in progress. We need patience. Next year we add Lundkvist, Barron, Jones and Chytil, Laf, Kakko, Miller, Kravs, Shesty get another year under their belt, plus any trades that may and probably will happen. Why do we need all the answers right now?

Why do we need answers? is that not self evident?

I'm curious to see what people think. I don't agree with using 'youth' as an overarching excuse. Carolina has been young and has found success with their youth. Why?

 

[DialUp]

Why do we need answers? is that not self evident?

Well the STAFF should be demanded of answers, always. Of course.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Yeah, I'm not concerned with us winning/losing because of him. More about if he's ready and not rushing him into a game because we have no others to play.

One game in the NHL is not going to destroy his devleopment. I really don't understand where this theory even comes from.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

Why do we need answers? is that not self evident?

I'm curious to see what people think. I don't agree with using 'youth' as an overarching excuse. Carolina has been young and has found success with their youth. Why?

It's too early. Carolina's rebuild is years ahead of the Rangers. They didn't make playoffs for 9 years starting in 09-10. They started seeing results of rebuild in 18-19 when they made the conference finals. That's a long time of sucking and building. Rangers didn't start tearing things down until 17-18. Still a work in progress.

 

[Fitzy]

It's too early. Carolina's rebuild is years ahead of the Rangers. They didn't make playoffs for 9 years starting in 09-10. They started seeing results of rebuild in 18-19 when they made the conference finals. That's a long time of sucking and building. Rangers didn't start tearing things down until 17-18. Still a work in progress.

It is, but every year down the tubes is a year older for our veteran players.

Really hoping this team can become competitive while Panarin is still in his prime.

 

[RGY]

Sounds like a something I would post...

He does not sound like someone in control. He knows he can make adjustments? Tell his players to play a certain way?

His players either do not respect him or do not care enough to listen to him. Either way, the Coach isn’t able to connect with his players, get them to buy in, and get the most out of them. Have said it all year long. Saw it in previous years.

Edit: Also, maybe the players arent buying in because his system sucks. Maybe they dont trust him based on how he coaches. Maybe the players see right through him. Something isnt connecting here because it happens all the time with this team’s inconsistent effort.